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Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list

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  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-29 18:00 +0100
    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-30 20:24 +0300
      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 20:58 +0100
        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-30 23:14 +0300
          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 21:36 +0100
          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 08:23 +0200
            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 10:52 +0300
              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 10:54 +0200
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 12:05 +0300
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 11:32 +0200
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 12:37 +0300
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 14:28 +0200
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 16:22 +0300
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 12:44 +1000
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 10:31 +0100
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 12:46 +0300
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 14:44 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 11:07 +0100
              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-01 12:43 +0000
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 15:08 +0200
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-01 15:33 +0000
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 21:18 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 23:14 +0000
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 20:32 +0100
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 09:25 +0200
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 16:28 +0300
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 08:45 -0500
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-01 15:34 +0000
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 08:49 -0700
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 17:56 +0100
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 20:15 +0300
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 18:26 +0100
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 11:29 -0700
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 20:16 +0100
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 12:29 -0700
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 21:12 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 20:28 +0100
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 09:22 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 10:34 +0100
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 14:01 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 14:40 +0100
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 06:48 -0700
                          OT Plague [was Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-03 02:37 +0000
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-07-03 08:34 +1000
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-02 17:30 -0700
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-03 01:24 +0000
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 10:08 -0700
                              Whatever happened to the Effbot? [was Re: python adds an etc] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 11:16 +1000
                                Re: Whatever happened to the Effbot? [was Re: python adds an etc] Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2013-07-03 20:31 -0500
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-03 11:21 +0200
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 10:11 -0700
                              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-04 14:09 +0200
                                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-05 15:40 -0700
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-08 10:19 +0200
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 19:45 +1000
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 13:00 +0300
                              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list feedthetroll@gmx.de - 2013-07-03 07:12 -0700
                                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 16:21 +0100
                                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 10:00 -0700
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list feedthetroll@gmx.de - 2013-07-04 01:24 -0700
                                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 10:01 -0700
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 11:08 -0700
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-03 18:29 +0000
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 12:18 -0700
                                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-04 03:08 +0000
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-07-04 10:53 +1000
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 02:08 +0100
                                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 20:07 -0700
                                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 22:44 -0700
                                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-04 08:57 +0300
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list feedthetroll@gmx.de - 2013-07-04 01:50 -0700
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-05 15:42 -0700
                              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 00:44 +1000
                                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 18:36 +0300
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 01:44 +1000
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 19:47 +0300
                                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 02:53 +1000
                                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 20:07 +0300
                                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 03:23 +1000
                                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 20:50 +0300
                                              Fwd: Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-04 13:06 +0300
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 17:42 +0100
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 20:10 +0300
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 05:31 -0700
                              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 00:37 +1000
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-03 12:04 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 00:18 +0100
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-02 18:21 -0700
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 00:12 +0100
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 18:56 -0700
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 00:40 +0100
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-04 13:19 +0200
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 02:58 +0100
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-07-03 10:36 +1000
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 01:51 +0100
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-03 12:01 +0200
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 19:27 +0300
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 19:36 +0300
      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 22:57 +0100
      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 23:13 +0100
      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 08:37 +0200
        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 10:55 +0300
          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 10:56 +0200
            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-07-01 14:01 +0000
              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 08:00 -0700
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-07-01 15:06 +0000
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 21:34 -0700
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 06:32 +0100
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-02 07:14 +0000
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-07-02 18:59 -0400
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-07-02 19:06 +0000
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 19:33 +0300
              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 20:42 +0200
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-01 22:12 +0000
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 09:55 +0200
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 17:59 +1000
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 23:17 +0000
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 08:54 +0200
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 01:43 -0600
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 10:16 +0200
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 12:53 +0000
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-03 00:22 +0000

Page 6 of 7 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7  Next page →

#49525

Op 30-06-13 23:57, Joshua Landau schreef:
> On 30 June 2013 20:58, Robert Kern<robert.kern@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> On 2013-06-30 18:24, Νίκος wrote:
>>>
>>> Στις 29/6/2013 8:00 μμ, ο/η Mark Lawrence έγραψε:
>>>
>>>> Why this when the approach to Nick the Incompetant Greek has been to
>>>> roll out the red carpet?
>>>
>>>
>>> Your mother is incompetent who raised a brat like you.
>>
>>
>> That is not acceptable behavior on this list. Please keep the gratuitous
>> insults offlist.
>
> As much as you are right, this argument was started by Mark. If you
> reprimand anyone (other threads being ignored) it should be him.
> Reacting only to Nick, even though what Nick said was undue, implies
> that you agree with Mark's actions.

I don't agree Mark started this argument. That he gave a negative
appraisal of Nikos is not starting an argument in itself.

> Remember that Nick is as much a human as all of us, he is bound to
> have his feelings hurt when so many people pick on him -- whether they
> are justified or not.

So? Should we particularly care about Nikos's feelings? Nikos is not
the victim, he is the instigator. And should his feelings get hurt
when it is pointed out what picture people got from him through his
own behaviour, I say good. May that way he'll learn that if he doesn't
want to be considered an incompetent inconsiderate jerk, he shouldn't
behave like one.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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#49530

Στις 1/7/2013 9:37 πμ, ο/η Antoon Pardon έγραψε:
>> Remember that Nick is as much a human as all of us, he is bound to
>> have his feelings hurt when so many people pick on him -- whether they
>> are justified or not.
>
> So? Should we particularly care about Nikos's feelings? Nikos is not
> the victim, he is the instigator. And should his feelings get hurt
> when it is pointed out what picture people got from him through his
> own behaviour, I say good. May that way he'll learn that if he doesn't
> want to be considered an incompetent inconsiderate jerk, he shouldn't
> behave like one.

Well, i will also follow your advice and not care at all about your 
feeling when you read the following.

GO FUCK YOURSELF.

-- 
What is now proved was at first only imagined!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#49533

Op 01-07-13 09:55, Νίκος schreef:
> Στις 1/7/2013 9:37 πμ, ο/η Antoon Pardon έγραψε:
>>> Remember that Nick is as much a human as all of us, he is bound to
>>> have his feelings hurt when so many people pick on him -- whether they
>>> are justified or not.
>>
>> So? Should we particularly care about Nikos's feelings? Nikos is not
>> the victim, he is the instigator. And should his feelings get hurt
>> when it is pointed out what picture people got from him through his
>> own behaviour, I say good. May that way he'll learn that if he doesn't
>> want to be considered an incompetent inconsiderate jerk, he shouldn't
>> behave like one.
>
> Well, i will also follow your advice and not care at all about your
> feeling when you read the following.

This makes no sense. You are not following my advice, if you were
already behaving like this.

>
> GO FUCK YOURSELF.
>

No thanks, I'm getting a little old for that.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#49563

On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 10:56:54 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote:

> Op 01-07-13 09:55, Νίκος schreef:
>> Στις 1/7/2013 9:37 πμ, ο/η Antoon Pardon έγραψε:
>>>> Remember that Nick is as much a human as all of us, he is bound to
>>>> have his feelings hurt when so many people pick on him -- whether
>>>> they are justified or not.
>>>
>>> So? Should we particularly care about Nikos's feelings? Nikos is not
>>> the victim, he is the instigator. And should his feelings get hurt
>>> when it is pointed out what picture people got from him through his
>>> own behaviour, I say good. May that way he'll learn that if he doesn't
>>> want to be considered an incompetent inconsiderate jerk, he shouldn't
>>> behave like one.
>>
>> Well, i will also follow your advice and not care at all about your
>> feeling when you read the following.
> 
> This makes no sense. You are not following my advice, if you were
> already behaving like this.
> 
> 
>> GO FUCK YOURSELF.
>>
>>
> No thanks, I'm getting a little old for that.

Please...enough. Polite request: consider killfiling him and having done 
with it.

It is irritating to see all the responses even though I killfiled him 
long ago. Whilst I realise, of course, that it is entirely your 
prerogative to choose what to do, I have no doubt that many others feel 
as I do.

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#49565

On Monday, July 1, 2013 7:31:18 PM UTC+5:30, Walter Hurry wrote:
> Please...enough. Polite request: consider killfiling him and having done 
> with it.
> 
> 
> It is irritating to see all the responses even though I killfiled him 
> long ago. Whilst I realise, of course, that it is entirely your 
> prerogative to choose what to do, I have no doubt that many others feel 
> as I do.

Walter I would humbly suggest that you consider that the real problem here is the "many others" not speaking up.

And that is at least in part happening because of the wrong use of tools -- wrong uses that you are advocating above.

To wit:

1. Kill-filing/spam-filtering are tools for spam.
Nikos is certainly not spamming in the sense of automated sending out of cooked mail to zillions of recipients/lists.  His posts are definite and intentional

2. Likewise Nikos is not trolling.
A troll is someone who posts seemingly innocuous stuff to cause irritation and then enjoys the results.  Here he clearly wants answers to the questions he is asking

So I suggest that if we want to address this problem we need to sit back individually and collectively, put aside habitual labels like spam/troll, and likewise habits of mind, and ask what exactly is the problem we are dealing with.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#49566

On 2013-07-01, rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> To wit:
>
> 1. Kill-filing/spam-filtering are tools for spam.
> Nikos is certainly not spamming in the sense of automated
> sending out of cooked mail to zillions of recipients/lists.
> His posts are definite and intentional

I disagree. Kill-files are not only for spam. I filter out
anything I believe I won't want to see.

-- 
Neil Cerutti

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#49607

On Monday, July 1, 2013 8:36:53 PM UTC+5:30, Neil Cerutti wrote:
> On 2013-07-01, rusi wrote:
> > 1. Kill-filing/spam-filtering are tools for spam.
> > Nikos is certainly not spamming in the sense of automated
> > sending out of cooked mail to zillions of recipients/lists.
> > His posts are definite and intentional
> 
> I disagree. Kill-files are not only for spam. I filter out
> anything I believe I won't want to see.

I happen to be a champ in using a wrench to hammer screws into bricks.
Others do a better job I am told -- and without being champs :-)

Tools can be used right... and wrong.  Sufficiently extreme wrong use adds to the original problem/mess.

Kill-filing is a solution for one problem.  In the current context it is much more the problem than the solution.  Two cases:

1. My estimate is that about 30-40 *different* answers-ers in hundreds of different posts have expressed frustration with dealing with Nikos.  The fact that they are now silent can mean one of two cases:

a. Nikos has turned a new leaf and become a golden boy
b. The protesters have opted out of the discussion/system
(like so-called democracies where 20% of the populace vote and criminals come to power)
You can take your pick on which case (Hint: Read this thread)

2. "I am killfiling you" is bullying behavior.  It is worse than useless because
a. The problem cases couldn't care a hoot
b. Those who could contribute usefully are shut up
c. The messengers are being shot as substitute for the culprits

On the whole we techies have a penchant (may I say allure?) for solving problems technically rather than socially.
It works well up to a point:
"Thou shall indent thy programs" is a social requirement in C and technical in python.  And so we consider -- rightly -- that python advances C.

However this line cannot solve all problems.  Our belief that technology can solve all problems is directly linked to the impending fact that the planet may go up in smoke.

In short technology in its place is good but conscience is not substitutable:
the use of (tools like) kill-filing analogizes to this piece of medical logic:

Brain tumor causes headache
Aspirin cures headache
Therefore aspirin cures brain tumors

tl;dr

Nikos is not spamming/trolling/baiting/flaming.  The Nikos-threads are a more serious disease than all these.  The fact that this thread is not started by him suggests the disease is spreading.  By not speaking up one is colluding.

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#49610

On 2 July 2013 05:34, rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Monday, July 1, 2013 8:36:53 PM UTC+5:30, Neil Cerutti wrote:
>> On 2013-07-01, rusi wrote:
>> > 1. Kill-filing/spam-filtering are tools for spam.
>> > Nikos is certainly not spamming in the sense of automated
>> > sending out of cooked mail to zillions of recipients/lists.
>> > His posts are definite and intentional
>>
>> I disagree. Kill-files are not only for spam. I filter out
>> anything I believe I won't want to see.
>
> I happen to be a champ in using a wrench to hammer screws into bricks.
> Others do a better job I am told -- and without being champs :-)

That's not really valid, your proposed technique is "use nothing", in
which case using a wrench is a golden opportunity. And you've also
implied that filtering out what you don't want is akin to hammering
screws into bricks, in which case I've been programming wrong my whole
programming life.

> Tools can be used right... and wrong.  Sufficiently extreme wrong use adds to the original problem/mess.
>
> Kill-filing is a solution for one problem.  In the current context it is much more the problem than the solution.  Two cases:

True, kill-filing *is* a solution for one problem. Don't get ahead of
yourself, though, by assuming that implies it's not a solution for
anything else.

> 1. My estimate is that about 30-40 *different* answers-ers in hundreds of different posts have expressed frustration with dealing with Nikos.  The fact that they are now silent can mean one of two cases:

I'm struggling to make those numbers add up.

> a. Nikos has turned a new leaf and become a golden boy
> b. The protesters have opted out of the discussion/system
> (like so-called democracies where 20% of the populace vote and criminals come to power)

First of all, the basis on which you claim there are only two cases is
false. Hence this point is void.

Secondly: wut? How is any of this a relevant point in the least?

> You can take your pick on which case (Hint: Read this thread)
>
> 2. "I am killfiling you" is bullying behavior.  It is worse than useless because

No it is not. You can check the definition of "bully" if you want.
Please try not to overuse emotionally rigged terms.

> a. The problem cases couldn't care a hoot

Nikos has shown that he does, in fact, "care a hoot".

> b. Those who could contribute usefully are shut up

You wouldn't killfire someone whose posts you want to read.

> c. The messengers are being shot as substitute for the culprits

If what the messengers are talking unacceptably for your tastes, then
by all means you should have right not to listen. Is that not just
basic reasoning?
People aren't kill-firing because the "messengers" are telling truths
we don't want to hear. People are kill-firing because they're doing it
in ways that we don't find acceptable.

> On the whole we techies have a penchant (may I say allure?) for solving problems technically rather than socially.
> It works well up to a point:
> "Thou shall indent thy programs" is a social requirement in C and technical in python.  And so we consider -- rightly -- that python advances C.
>
> However this line cannot solve all problems.  Our belief that technology can solve all problems is directly linked to the impending fact that the planet may go up in smoke.

Wut?

> In short technology in its place is good but conscience is not substitutable:
> the use of (tools like) kill-filing analogizes to this piece of medical logic:
>
> Brain tumor causes headache
> Aspirin cures headache
> Therefore aspirin cures brain tumors

I see no connection. No connection to what this is supposedly an "in
short" of (despite being longer) and no connection to the actual point
you are trying to make. Basically, I don't understand what you're
trying to portray.

> tl;dr
>
> Nikos is not spamming/trolling/baiting/flaming.  The Nikos-threads are a more serious disease than all these.  The fact that this thread is not started by him suggests the disease is spreading.  By not speaking up one is colluding.

You might want to look up colluding.


Basically, rusi, I don't understand you. You seem to speak coherently,
but I never know what point you are making, what side you are arguing.
You seem to be strongly anti-Nikos, but further than that is opaque to
me. What I'm not too fond of, though, is your seeming insistence that
your methodology should be rigorously followed by every other party on
this list -- we are not a dictatorship, least of all one of your
control. As long as we all act civil, and occasionally on-topic, what
you do is at your discretion. Plus it's hard to follow someone's
command if you haven't the least idea what they're telling you to do.

Actually, the one other thing I get from you is that you have the
militant view of "we have to all act now in unison to do <whatever
your goal is, still not sure>". It might explain your odd choice of
links.

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#49615

On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 21:34:42 -0700, rusi wrote:

> 2. "I am killfiling you" is bullying behavior.  It is worse than useless
> because a. The problem cases couldn't care a hoot b. Those who could
> contribute usefully are shut up c. The messengers are being shot as
> substitute for the culprits

I don't accept this analysis. Withholding my attention is not bullying. I 
have no responsibility towards people asking questions here, apart from 
the ethical responsibility to not maliciously give them bad advice. I can 
come or go as I see fit, I can ignore those whom I so choose. If I were 
to abuse this right, say by refusing to answer questions asked by women, 
that would make me a dirty sexist bigot, but it wouldn't make me a bully, 
any more than taking a week off and not responding during that time makes 
me a bully.

If I choose to ignore those who (in my opinion) are not living up to the 
implied social contract ("don't be a dick, and I'll help you, if I can"), 
that's hardly bulling either.

Kill-filing is just a version of shunning. Like shunning in Real Life, I 
can do it for good reasons or bad. If I kill-file people because they 
said they preferred Ruby to Python, that would make me a dick, but if I 
kill-file people who disrupt the community, and do so publicly, I'm 
sending a signal to them that "your behaviour is unacceptable to me".

Provided enough people follow, shunning is an effective way to discourage 
disruptive behaviour. Trolls will get bored when they no longer get a 
response, and move on. Those actually wanting help will either get 
frustrated and move on, or mend their ways.

Kill-filing is not perfect, of course, but until such time that we can 
deliver a swift kick to the behind over the internet, it is the best we 
can do.

Oh, and one last point -- I have never kill-filed anyone merely for being 
the messenger that another person is causing trouble, as you suggest. I 
have kill-filed people for being abusive, for flaming, or for trolling.


-- 
Steven

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#49665

On 02 Jul 2013 07:14:42 GMT, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> declaimed the following:

>Kill-filing is not perfect, of course, but until such time that we can 
>deliver a swift kick to the behind over the internet, it is the best we 
>can do.
>
	Especially when the target individual has managed to pick an ID that
chokes Agent's filter definition page...

	Though perhaps, in reading that, the individual will refrain from
further ID changes...
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#49646

On Tue, 02 Jul 2013 07:14:42 +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 21:34:42 -0700, rusi wrote:
> 
>> 2. "I am killfiling you" is bullying behavior.  It is worse than
>> useless because a. The problem cases couldn't care a hoot b. Those who
>> could contribute usefully are shut up c. The messengers are being shot
>> as substitute for the culprits
> 
> I don't accept this analysis. Withholding my attention is not bullying.
> I have no responsibility towards people asking questions here, apart
> from the ethical responsibility to not maliciously give them bad advice.
> I can come or go as I see fit, I can ignore those whom I so choose. If I
> were to abuse this right, say by refusing to answer questions asked by
> women, that would make me a dirty sexist bigot, but it wouldn't make me
> a bully,
> any more than taking a week off and not responding during that time
> makes me a bully.
> 
> If I choose to ignore those who (in my opinion) are not living up to the
> implied social contract ("don't be a dick, and I'll help you, if I
> can"),
> that's hardly bulling either.
> 
> Kill-filing is just a version of shunning. Like shunning in Real Life, I
> can do it for good reasons or bad. If I kill-file people because they
> said they preferred Ruby to Python, that would make me a dick, but if I
> kill-file people who disrupt the community, and do so publicly, I'm
> sending a signal to them that "your behaviour is unacceptable to me".
> 
> Provided enough people follow, shunning is an effective way to
> discourage disruptive behaviour. Trolls will get bored when they no
> longer get a response, and move on. Those actually wanting help will
> either get frustrated and move on, or mend their ways.
> 
> Kill-filing is not perfect, of course, but until such time that we can
> deliver a swift kick to the behind over the internet, it is the best we
> can do.
> 
> Oh, and one last point -- I have never kill-filed anyone merely for
> being the messenger that another person is causing trouble, as you
> suggest. I have kill-filed people for being abusive, for flaming, or for
> trolling.

For me it's even simpler. I killfile people because I don't want to read 
what they post.

FWIW, there are only four entries in my killfile for comp.lang.python, 
and three of them are you-know-who.

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#49572

Στις 1/7/2013 6:00 μμ, ο/η rusi έγραψε:
> On Monday, July 1, 2013 7:31:18 PM UTC+5:30, Walter Hurry wrote:
>> Please...enough. Polite request: consider killfiling him and having done
>> with it.
>>
>>
>> It is irritating to see all the responses even though I killfiled him
>> long ago. Whilst I realise, of course, that it is entirely your
>> prerogative to choose what to do, I have no doubt that many others feel
>> as I do.
>
> Walter I would humbly suggest that you consider that the real problem here is the "many others" not speaking up.
>
> And that is at least in part happening because of the wrong use of tools -- wrong uses that you are advocating above.
>
> To wit:
>
> 1. Kill-filing/spam-filtering are tools for spam.
> Nikos is certainly not spamming in the sense of automated sending out of cooked mail to zillions of recipients/lists.  His posts are definite and intentional
>
> 2. Likewise Nikos is not trolling.
> A troll is someone who posts seemingly innocuous stuff to cause irritation and then enjoys the results.  Here he clearly wants answers to the questions he is asking
>
> So I suggest that if we want to address this problem we need to sit back individually and collectively, put aside habitual labels like spam/troll, and likewise habits of mind, and ask what exactly is the problem we are dealing with.


It feels good to see that some people in this list understand that i all 
i wanted was to only receive helpful replies, because i was and still am 
a newbie at Python and it was not a trolling act as falsely considered..

-- 
What is now proved was at first only imagined!

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#49580

Op 01-07-13 16:01, Walter Hurry schreef:
> On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 10:56:54 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>
>> Op 01-07-13 09:55, Νίκος schreef:
>>> Στις 1/7/2013 9:37 πμ, ο/η Antoon Pardon έγραψε:
>>>>> Remember that Nick is as much a human as all of us, he is bound to
>>>>> have his feelings hurt when so many people pick on him -- whether
>>>>> they are justified or not.
>>>>
>>>> So? Should we particularly care about Nikos's feelings? Nikos is not
>>>> the victim, he is the instigator. And should his feelings get hurt
>>>> when it is pointed out what picture people got from him through his
>>>> own behaviour, I say good. May that way he'll learn that if he doesn't
>>>> want to be considered an incompetent inconsiderate jerk, he shouldn't
>>>> behave like one.
>>>
>>> Well, i will also follow your advice and not care at all about your
>>> feeling when you read the following.
>>
>> This makes no sense. You are not following my advice, if you were
>> already behaving like this.
>>
>>
>>> GO FUCK YOURSELF.
>>>
>>>
>> No thanks, I'm getting a little old for that.
>
> Please...enough. Polite request: consider killfiling him and having done
> with it.
>
> It is irritating to see all the responses even though I killfiled him
> long ago. Whilst I realise, of course, that it is entirely your
> prerogative to choose what to do, I have no doubt that many others feel
> as I do.
>
How about the following comprimise. I'll get myself a second identity.
Every respons I make to Nikos will be done with the same identity.
Normal python exchanges will be done with the other. You can then
simply killfile my identity that engages with Nikos.

Let me know what you think about this.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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#49597

On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 20:42:48 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote:

> How about the following comprimise. I'll get myself a second identity.
> Every respons I make to Nikos will be done with the same identity.
> Normal python exchanges will be done with the other. You can then simply
> killfile my identity that engages with Nikos.

"Please don't assault people in the street."

"How about a compromise? I'll continue assaulting people in the street, 
but I'll wear a yellow hat when I do so. Then, if you don't want to see 
me assaulting people, whenever you see me wearing a yellow hat, just turn 
away."


> Let me know what you think about this.

Sure, no problem.

*plonk*



-- 
Steven

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#49627

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Op 02-07-13 00:12, Steven D'Aprano schreef:

> On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 20:42:48 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>
>> How about the following comprimise. I'll get myself a second identity.
>> Every respons I make to Nikos will be done with the same identity.
>> Normal python exchanges will be done with the other. You can then simply
>> killfile my identity that engages with Nikos.
> "Please don't assault people in the street."
>
> "How about a compromise? I'll continue assaulting people in the street, 
> but I'll wear a yellow hat when I do so. Then, if you don't want to see 
> me assaulting people, whenever you see me wearing a yellow hat, just turn 
> away."
If you want to make an analogy you shouldn't cherry pick part of the
situation and ignore how awful it would look in the complete picture.

First of all these kind of requests were made to you to. They are
requests from people who have killfiled Nikos but still are confronted
with him because of those who reply to him. So if I am an assaulter
then so are you in the context of this analogy.

And what kind of solution is the killfile in this analogy? Perhaps this:

] Chris: Fred is really behaving very annoyingly
] Nils: You should wear protective gear so you can ignore him but
        don't bother the rest of us about it.


>> Let me know what you think about this.
> Sure, no problem.
>
> *plonk*
Fine you give me an opportunity to point out the problems in your
thinking without giving yourself the opportunity to respond. I
can live with that.

-- Antoon Pardon.

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#49628

On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 5:55 PM, Antoon Pardon
<antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:
> Fine you give me an opportunity to point out the problems in your thinking
> without giving yourself the opportunity to respond. I can live with that.

And by continuing to rant, you just make other people sick of reading
your posts. Please, do us all a favour and let's get back to talking
Python rather than people.

ChrisA

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#49600

On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 20:42:48 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote:

> How about the following comprimise. ....

> Let me know what you think about this.

How about you just ignore him.

-- 
Denis McMahon, denismfmcmahon@gmail.com

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#49614

Op 02-07-13 01:17, Denis McMahon schreef:
> On Mon, 01 Jul 2013 20:42:48 +0200, Antoon Pardon wrote:
>
>> How about the following comprimise. ....
>> Let me know what you think about this.
> How about you just ignore him.

Why about you just ignore me?

Serious, a lot of people here seem to think that if someone is bothered
by someone else, the bothered person should just ignore the botherer.

That is until something starts bothering these people themselves, then
suddenly all kind of arguments are let loose in the hope of influencing
the person that bothered them in changing his behaviour.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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#49626

On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 12:54 AM, Antoon Pardon
<antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:
> Why about you just ignore me?
>
> Serious, a lot of people here seem to think that if someone is bothered
> by someone else, the bothered person should just ignore the botherer.
>
> That is until something starts bothering these people themselves, then
> suddenly all kind of arguments are let loose in the hope of influencing
> the person that bothered them in changing his behaviour.

So what if they do?  Failure to follow one's own advice does not make
it bad advice.

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#49629

Op 02-07-13 09:43, Ian Kelly schreef:
> On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 12:54 AM, Antoon Pardon
> <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:
>> Why about you just ignore me?
>>
>> Serious, a lot of people here seem to think that if someone is bothered
>> by someone else, the bothered person should just ignore the botherer.
>>
>> That is until something starts bothering these people themselves, then
>> suddenly all kind of arguments are let loose in the hope of influencing
>> the person that bothered them in changing his behaviour.
> So what if they do?  Failure to follow one's own advice does not make
> it bad advice.

That is true. But it should give some appreciation on how difficult it
can be to follow the advise. IMO "ignore the botherer" is bad advice in
the same sense as telling people who are overweight they should just eat
less and exercise more.

Sure if overweight people would follow the advise they actually would
loose weight, but the advise ignores how hard it can be for people to
change their behaviour. People can't just decide they will behave a
certain way in the future. There can be all kinds of hurdles that will
tempt them to resume the original behaviour.

I would like people to have that in mind when they try to tell others to
just ignore the behaviour that bothers them. Maybe it would help them to
be a bit more patient to those who have trouble following the advise.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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