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EuroPython 2015: Django Girls Workshop

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  EuroPython 2015: Django Girls Workshop "M.-A. Lemburg" <mal@europython.eu> - 2015-04-17 19:25 +0200
    Re: EuroPython 2015: Django Girls Workshop beliavsky@aol.com - 2015-04-17 12:35 -0700
      Re: EuroPython 2015: Django Girls Workshop Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-04-17 23:31 +0300
        Re: EuroPython 2015: Django Girls Workshop Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 16:44 -0400
          Re: EuroPython 2015: Django Girls Workshop Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-19 13:35 +1000
            Re: EuroPython 2015: Django Girls Workshop Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-18 20:53 -0700
        Re: EuroPython 2015: Django Girls Workshop Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-04-18 08:04 +1000
        Re: EuroPython 2015: Django Girls Workshop Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-04-17 19:29 -0400
        Re: EuroPython 2015: Django Girls Workshop Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 18:14 -0600
        Re: EuroPython 2015: Django Girls Workshop catperson <me@anonymous.invalid> - 2015-04-17 19:17 -0700
      Re: EuroPython 2015: Django Girls Workshop Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-04-17 22:14 +0100

#89082 — EuroPython 2015: Django Girls Workshop

We are happy to announce that we will be hosting a Django Girls Workshop
during the EuroPython 2015. It will take place on 20th of July, the
first day of the conference.

We believe in the work that this group is doing to bring more women
into technology, and we will work towards making EuroPython 2015
enjoyable and welcoming for these beginner programmers.

The workshop is free of charge and you must register through their
registration form; some financial aid for travel to Bilbao can be
provided:

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1OEG1vpOa0fJWaGi81KLvoWloxbhKQW_ufp5Fb2j3QTc/viewform?c=0&w=1

The application process closes on May 31st, 2015.

The workshop is organized and coached by volunteers. If you or your
company would like to contribute by sponsoring, coaching, or any
other help you can provide, please email the organizers at
bilbao@djangogirls.org.

Check out their website for more information:

    http://djangogirls.org/europython2015/

Enjoy,
--
EuroPython 2015 Team
http://ep2015.europython.eu/

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#89087

On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 1:25:51 PM UTC-4, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
> We are happy to announce that we will be hosting a Django Girls Workshop
> during the EuroPython 2015. It will take place on 20th of July, the
> first day of the conference.
> 
> We believe in the work that this group is doing to bring more women
> into technology, and we will work towards making EuroPython 2015
> enjoyable and welcoming for these beginner programmers.

If your target audience is women, I think you should have termed it the Django Womens Workshop rather than the Django Girls Workshop. Referring to adults as children can be seen as condescending.

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#89089

beliavsky@aol.com:

> If your target audience is women, I think you should have termed it
> the Django Womens Workshop rather than the Django Girls Workshop.
> Referring to adults as children can be seen as condescending.

You got it wrong. The name is not offensive. However, it suffers from
two serious problems:

 * You might think it's for children only.

 * The name's missing an apostrophe.


Marko

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#89090

On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 4:31 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> beliavsky@aol.com:
>
>> If your target audience is women, I think you should have termed it
>> the Django Womens Workshop rather than the Django Girls Workshop.
>> Referring to adults as children can be seen as condescending.
>
> You got it wrong. The name is not offensive.

Most adult woman I know take offense at being called a girl.

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#89140

On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:44 am, Larry Martell wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 4:31 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>> beliavsky@aol.com:
>>
>>> If your target audience is women, I think you should have termed it
>>> the Django Womens Workshop rather than the Django Girls Workshop.
>>> Referring to adults as children can be seen as condescending.
>>
>> You got it wrong. The name is not offensive.
> 
> Most adult woman I know take offense at being called a girl.


Surely it depends on the context, and also the size of the chip on the
person's shoulder.

Consider a white male speaking to an adult black American male and referring
to him as "boy", especially if the white person is younger than the black
person. That would be demeaning and offensive due to the history of slavery
and apartheid in the US and the continuing status of blacks (especially
black males) as second-class citizens in the US.

Likewise an Englishman to an adult Indian, although it would probably come
across as more laughable than offensive. The British Empire is long gone,
and India is an independent nuclear-armed regional power, don't you know?

On the other hand, I don't know about where you are, but here in Australia
we say "I'm going on a night out with the boys", or if we are women, we
say "a night out with the girls". We might say things like "Oh yes, Susan
is one of us girls" which is quite different from "one of us women". (One
of us *women* is just a comment on Susan's sex, but *girls* is a comment on
her membership of a circle of friends.)

Sometimes we say "lads and lasses" when we want to be less formal
than "ladies and gentlemen".

And of course anyone who has watched Oprah will have heard "You go girl!" as
a positive term of support.

It is very common and acceptable to use "girls" or "boys" to refer to adults
when it is used in an inclusive sense. In other words, when the speaker
includes themselves, or at least there is the possibility of being
included. "I wish I could be one of the boys, but I'm just to shy to join
in."

In *this specific instance*, all you guys complaining about Django Girls
have completely missed the important fact that the name of the group
is "Django Girls". Django Girls was started by two women, Ola Sitarska and
Ola Sendecka, and their Github page says:

"Django Girls is a programming workshop for women."

So it is not a Django workshop for female children. It is not a workshop
belonging to girls who happen to use Django. It might not even be a
workshop teaching how to use Django! (Although it probably will be.) It is
a Django Girls workshop, just like we might say "Microsoft technology"
or "Washington politics".





-- 
Steven

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#89142

On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 9:05:54 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 18 Apr 2015 06:44 am, Larry Martell wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 4:31 PM, Marko Rauhamaa  wrote:
> >> beliavsky:
> >>
> >>> If your target audience is women, I think you should have termed it
> >>> the Django Womens Workshop rather than the Django Girls Workshop.
> >>> Referring to adults as children can be seen as condescending.
> >>
> >> You got it wrong. The name is not offensive.
> > 
> > Most adult woman I know take offense at being called a girl.
> 
> 
> Surely it depends on the context, and also the size of the chip on the
> person's shoulder.
> 
> Consider a white male speaking to an adult black American male and referring
> to him as "boy", especially if the white person is younger than the black
> person. That would be demeaning and offensive due to the history of slavery
> and apartheid in the US and the continuing status of blacks (especially
> black males) as second-class citizens in the US.
> 
> Likewise an Englishman to an adult Indian, although it would probably come
> across as more laughable than offensive. The British Empire is long gone,
> and India is an independent nuclear-armed regional power, don't you know?
> 
> On the other hand, I don't know about where you are, but here in Australia
> we say "I'm going on a night out with the boys", or if we are women, we
> say "a night out with the girls". We might say things like "Oh yes, Susan
> is one of us girls" which is quite different from "one of us women". (One
> of us *women* is just a comment on Susan's sex, but *girls* is a comment on
> her membership of a circle of friends.)
> 
> Sometimes we say "lads and lasses" when we want to be less formal
> than "ladies and gentlemen".
> 
> And of course anyone who has watched Oprah will have heard "You go girl!" as
> a positive term of support.
> 
> It is very common and acceptable to use "girls" or "boys" to refer to adults
> when it is used in an inclusive sense. In other words, when the speaker
> includes themselves, or at least there is the possibility of being
> included. "I wish I could be one of the boys, but I'm just to shy to join
> in."
> 
> In *this specific instance*, all you guys complaining about Django Girls
> have completely missed the important fact that the name of the group
> is "Django Girls". Django Girls was started by two women, Ola Sitarska and
> Ola Sendecka, and their Github page says:
> 
> "Django Girls is a programming workshop for women."
> 
> So it is not a Django workshop for female children. It is not a workshop
> belonging to girls who happen to use Django. It might not even be a
> workshop teaching how to use Django! (Although it probably will be.) It is
> a Django Girls workshop, just like we might say "Microsoft technology"
> or "Washington politics".
> 

I remember being taught in school:
"lady" is respectful
"woman" is disrespectful

When I was recently in Canada I learnt its exactly the other way round there --
[And probably more so in US where the chips on shoulder are heftier]
I was told by a lady -- uh... woman -- not to say 'ladies' but 'women'

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#89094

Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> writes:

> beliavsky@aol.com:
>
> > If your target audience is women, I think you should have termed it
> > the Django Womens Workshop rather than the Django Girls Workshop.
> > Referring to adults as children can be seen as condescending.
>
> You got it wrong. The name is not offensive.

It is not for you to say what is offensive to others.

Further, nobody claimed it is “offensive”, so why raise that?

The claim is that to call women “girls” is condenscending.

-- 
 \      “People always ask me, ‘Where were you when Kennedy was shot?’ |
  `\                        Well, I don't have an alibi.” —Emo Philips |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#89095

On 4/17/2015 4:31 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> beliavsky@aol.com:
>
>> If your target audience is women, I think you should have termed it
>> the Django Womens Workshop rather than the Django Girls Workshop.
>> Referring to adults as children can be seen as condescending.

Are all of you claiming this so ignorant that 'girls' is sometimes used 
to refer to adult women, just as 'boys' is someitmes used to refer to 
adult men?  The co-founders of 'Django Girls', djangogirls.org, are two 
Polish females.  Judging from their pictures on their twitter pages, 
they were perhaps in their 20s at the time.  They love Python, are 
Django Core Developers, and want to share, especially with other women. 
They were *not* condescending themselves or other women.

"
We want to inspire women to fall in love with programming.

So we organize free Python and Django workshops, create open sourced 
online tutorials and care about amazing first experiences.
"


> You got it wrong. The name is not offensive. However, it suffers from
> two serious problems:
>
>   * You might think it's for children only.

I would not.

>   * The name's missing an apostrophe.

Nope.  The organization is 'Django Girls', not 'Django Girl'.  A Djange 
Girls Workshop is a workshop by and for Django Girls.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#89096

On Fri, Apr 17, 2015 at 5:29 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:
> On 4/17/2015 4:31 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>   * You might think it's for children only.
>
>
> I would not.

It was my first impression that it was targeted for children. There
are a lot of STEM programs these days oriented toward girl children,
and the name in combination with the second paragraph of the OP led me
to believe that this was one of those. I think it's fair to say that
the announcement could have been a bit clearer about the organization
behind the event and about the intended audience.

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#89102

On Fri, 17 Apr 2015 23:31:42 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net>
wrote:

>beliavsky@aol.com:
>
>> If your target audience is women, I think you should have termed it
>> the Django Womens Workshop rather than the Django Girls Workshop.
>> Referring to adults as children can be seen as condescending.
>
>You got it wrong. The name is not offensive. However, it suffers from
>two serious problems:
>
> * You might think it's for children only.
>
> * The name's missing an apostrophe.
>
>
>Marko


They are not girls, they are purple penguins.  PC can be taken too
far...

http://journalstar.com/news/local/education/lps-staff-s-transgender-training-concerns-parents/article_0b37dd75-758d-50c1-9deb-16901059bc5a.html

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#89092

On 17/04/2015 20:35, beliavsky@aol.com.dmarc.invalid wrote:
> On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 1:25:51 PM UTC-4, M.-A. Lemburg wrote:
>> We are happy to announce that we will be hosting a Django Girls Workshop
>> during the EuroPython 2015. It will take place on 20th of July, the
>> first day of the conference.
>>
>> We believe in the work that this group is doing to bring more women
>> into technology, and we will work towards making EuroPython 2015
>> enjoyable and welcoming for these beginner programmers.
>
> If your target audience is women, I think you should have termed it the Django Womens Workshop rather than the Django Girls Workshop. Referring to adults as children can be seen as condescending.
>

http://djangogirls.org/

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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