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RIse and fall of languages in 2012

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  RIse and fall of languages in 2012 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-01-10 07:23 +0000
    Re: RIse and fall of languages in 2012 Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-01-10 12:42 -0700
      Re: RIse and fall of languages in 2012 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-01-10 23:32 +0000
        Re: RIse and fall of languages in 2012 Craig Yoshioka <craigyk@me.com> - 2013-01-10 19:50 -0800
    Re: RIse and fall of languages in 2012 John Ladasky <john_ladasky@sbcglobal.net> - 2013-01-10 14:50 -0800
    Re: RIse and fall of languages in 2012 Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-01-10 23:45 +0000

#36565 — RIse and fall of languages in 2012

"In general-purpose scripting languages, Python continues to grow slowly, 
JavaScript and Ruby are treading water, and Perl continues its long 
decline. According to Google trends, the number of searches for Perl is 
19% of what it was in 2004. Its declining role in open-source communities 
further cements the perception that it's in an irretrievable tailspin. 
One should always be careful pronouncing a language dead or dying, 
because rare resurrections have occurred: JavaScript and Objective-C 
being two stand-out cases. However, Perl is unlikely to see such a new 
lease on life because of direct competition from Python, which is 
considerably more popular (whereas Objective-C and JavaScript had no 
direct equivalents when they came back)."

http://www.drdobbs.com/jvm/the-rise-and-fall-of-languages-in-2012/240145800


And from the TIOBE Index, Python is steady at number 8:

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html



-- 
Steven

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#36585

On 01/10/2013 12:23 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> "In general-purpose scripting languages, Python continues to grow slowly, 
> JavaScript and Ruby are treading water, and Perl continues its long 
> decline. According to Google trends, the number of searches for Perl is 
> 19% of what it was in 2004. Its declining role in open-source communities 
> further cements the perception that it's in an irretrievable tailspin. 
> One should always be careful pronouncing a language dead or dying, 
> because rare resurrections have occurred: JavaScript and Objective-C 
> being two stand-out cases. However, Perl is unlikely to see such a new 
> lease on life because of direct competition from Python, which is 
> considerably more popular (whereas Objective-C and JavaScript had no 
> direct equivalents when they came back)."
> 
> http://www.drdobbs.com/jvm/the-rise-and-fall-of-languages-in-2012/240145800
> 
> 
> And from the TIOBE Index, Python is steady at number 8:
> 
> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html

The TIOBE index is meaningless.  Since it's based on google searches,
one could probably guess that any language that is awkward and difficult
will require more searches to figure out how to use the thing.  Thus of
course C is top!  Especially if ranked by sarcastic queries like, "C
sucks," and "why does C suck so much."

Javascript is doing much more than just "treading water."  Javascript
may not be glamorous but it is *the* glue that makes the web run.  Funny
to see such a reputable journal make such an absurd statement.  I can
buy that Perl is in a slow decline.  Certainly I'd use Python for the
same tasks that people used to use Perl for.  In short I see no rise and
fall of languages in 2012.  Seems like business as usual, and the usual
suspects continue to get steady use.

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#36593

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:42:49 -0700, Michael Torrie wrote:

>> And from the TIOBE Index, Python is steady at number 8:
>> 
>> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
> 
> The TIOBE index is meaningless.  Since it's based on google searches,
> one could probably guess that any language that is awkward and difficult
> will require more searches to figure out how to use the thing.  Thus of
> course C is top!  Especially if ranked by sarcastic queries like, "C
> sucks," and "why does C suck so much."

If you have a problem with TIOBE's methodology, feel free to come up with 
your own. Or take it up with them.

I dispute that TIOBE measures difficulty of language. If it did, Malbolge 
would likely be at the top of the list. Yes, there are sarcastic queries 
asking "C sucks", but that's just measurement error: 21,200 hits for "C 
sucks" versus 9,900,000 for "C programming". It's not as if there is any 
language, not even Python, that is so easy to use that nobody needs to 
write about it.


> Javascript is doing much more than just "treading water."

How do you know? What's *your* methodology for determining the popularity 
of a language?

* "But everybody knows that Javascript is super popular!!!"

* "All my friends are using Javascript."

* "I'm a web developer, and I use Javascript for my day job."

* "I counted 14 job adverts on Monster.com for Javascript devs last week, 
what more evidence does anyone need?"

* "I googled for `What's the most popular language?` and found a blog 
that says it's Javascript, that's good enough for me."

* "I have a gut feeling."

If you are going to criticise TIOBE's methodology, and then make your own 
claims for language popularity, you really need to demonstrate that your 
methodology is better.


> Javascript
> may not be glamorous but it is *the* glue that makes the web run.

And web development is a tiny fraction of all software development.



-- 
Steven

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#36600

At one point or another I'm pretty sure I've googled "_____ sucks" for every language I've ever used- even the ones I like. ie: Python easily more than once. 

Craig reporting from the road
10550 N Torrey Pines Rd
La Jolla CA 92037
work: 858 784 9208
cell: 619 623 2233

On Jan 10, 2013, at 3:32 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:

> On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 12:42:49 -0700, Michael Torrie wrote:
> 
>>> And from the TIOBE Index, Python is steady at number 8:
>>> 
>>> http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
>> 
>> The TIOBE index is meaningless.  Since it's based on google searches,
>> one could probably guess that any language that is awkward and difficult
>> will require more searches to figure out how to use the thing.  Thus of
>> course C is top!  Especially if ranked by sarcastic queries like, "C
>> sucks," and "why does C suck so much."
> 
> If you have a problem with TIOBE's methodology, feel free to come up with 
> your own. Or take it up with them.
> 
> I dispute that TIOBE measures difficulty of language. If it did, Malbolge 
> would likely be at the top of the list. Yes, there are sarcastic queries 
> asking "C sucks", but that's just measurement error: 21,200 hits for "C 
> sucks" versus 9,900,000 for "C programming". It's not as if there is any 
> language, not even Python, that is so easy to use that nobody needs to 
> write about it.
> 
> 
>> Javascript is doing much more than just "treading water."
> 
> How do you know? What's *your* methodology for determining the popularity 
> of a language?
> 
> * "But everybody knows that Javascript is super popular!!!"
> 
> * "All my friends are using Javascript."
> 
> * "I'm a web developer, and I use Javascript for my day job."
> 
> * "I counted 14 job adverts on Monster.com for Javascript devs last week, 
> what more evidence does anyone need?"
> 
> * "I googled for `What's the most popular language?` and found a blog 
> that says it's Javascript, that's good enough for me."
> 
> * "I have a gut feeling."
> 
> If you are going to criticise TIOBE's methodology, and then make your own 
> claims for language popularity, you really need to demonstrate that your 
> methodology is better.
> 
> 
>> Javascript
>> may not be glamorous but it is *the* glue that makes the web run.
> 
> And web development is a tiny fraction of all software development.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Steven
> -- 
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

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#36591

On Wednesday, January 9, 2013 11:23:51 PM UTC-8, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> One should always be careful pronouncing a language dead or dying, 

No kidding!

https://www.google.com/#q=is+fortran+still+used

I usually use the query phrase "Why isn't Fortran dead yet?", but you get a better list of links with a less biased phrase.

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#36594

On Thu, 10 Jan 2013 07:23:51 +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> "In general-purpose scripting languages, Python continues to grow
> slowly, JavaScript and Ruby are treading water, and Perl continues its
> long decline. According to Google trends, the number of searches for
> Perl is 19% of what it was in 2004. Its declining role in open-source
> communities further cements the perception that it's in an irretrievable
> tailspin.
> One should always be careful pronouncing a language dead or dying,
> because rare resurrections have occurred: JavaScript and Objective-C
> being two stand-out cases. However, Perl is unlikely to see such a new
> lease on life because of direct competition from Python, which is
> considerably more popular (whereas Objective-C and JavaScript had no
> direct equivalents when they came back)."

Why should we care? We use Python because it's powerful, easy, elegant  
and all the other things.

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