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python programming help

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  python programming help rafaellasav@gmail.com - 2013-12-08 09:59 -0800
    Re: python programming help YBM <ybmess@nooos.fr.invalid> - 2013-12-08 19:07 +0100
      Re: python programming help rafaellasav@gmail.com - 2013-12-08 10:14 -0800
        Re: python programming help YBM <ybmess@nooos.fr.invalid> - 2013-12-08 19:18 +0100
        Re: python programming help Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-08 18:25 +0000
        Re: python programming help Christopher Welborn <cjwelborn@live.com> - 2013-12-09 17:34 -0600
    Re: python programming help Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-08 13:23 -0500
    Re: python programming help Gary Herron <gary.herron@islandtraining.com> - 2013-12-08 10:20 -0800
    Re: python programming help bob gailer <bgailer@gmail.com> - 2013-12-08 13:27 -0500
      Re: python programming help rafaellasav@gmail.com - 2013-12-08 10:32 -0800
        Re: python programming help rafaellasav@gmail.com - 2013-12-08 10:42 -0800
        Re: python programming help Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2013-12-08 10:52 -0800
          Re: python programming help rafaellasav@gmail.com - 2013-12-08 11:06 -0800
            Re: python programming help Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-09 06:17 +1100
              Re: python programming help rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-12-08 16:08 -0800
                Re: python programming help Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-09 00:27 +0000
                  Re: python programming help rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-12-08 21:07 -0800
                    Re: python programming help rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-08 21:20 -0800
                      Re: python programming help rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-12-09 21:15 -0800
                    Re: python programming help Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-09 18:57 +1100
                      Re: python programming help rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-12-09 21:07 -0800
                    Re: python programming help Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-09 09:34 +0000
                    Meta Fight About Posting (was: python programming help) Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2013-12-09 07:44 -0800
                      Re: Meta Fight About Posting (was: python programming help) rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-09 08:25 -0800
                        Re: Meta Fight About Posting (was: python programming help) rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-09 08:47 -0800
                        Re: Meta Fight About Posting (was: python programming help) Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-09 13:48 -0500
                      Re: Meta Fight About Posting (was: python programming help) Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-09 13:45 -0500
                Re: python programming help Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-09 14:05 +1100
                  Re: python programming help rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-12-08 21:10 -0800
                    Re: python programming help Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-12-09 00:22 -0500
                    Re: python programming help Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-09 19:15 +1100
                      Re: python programming help rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-12-09 21:10 -0800
                        Re: python programming help Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-10 16:29 +1100
            Re: python programming help Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-08 19:21 +0000
            Re: python programming help Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-12-08 16:17 -0500
            Re: python programming help YBM <ybmess@nooos.fr.invalid> - 2013-12-09 03:02 +0100
        Re: python programming help John Ladasky <john_ladasky@sbcglobal.net> - 2013-12-08 11:21 -0800
        Re: python programming help Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-09 13:00 +1300
          Re: python programming help YBM <ybmess@nooos.fr.invalid> - 2013-12-09 02:51 +0100
        Re: python programming help YBM <ybmess@nooos.fr.invalid> - 2013-12-09 03:31 +0100

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#61436

On 12/09/2013 12:57 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:07 PM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> However it does not change the fact that people here have responded
>> in rather extreme way to GG posts including calling GG users "twits"
>> and claiming GG posts damage their eyesight, as well as repeatedly
>> denying the obvious fact that GG is much easier to use for many than
>> to subscribe to a usenet provider or to a mailing list.  One frequently
>> sees words like "crap", "slimy", "rubbish" etc to describe GG posts
>> which is pretty intimating to people who just want some help with a
>> python question using a tool they already know how to use and have
>> had no complaints about in other places.
> 
> Please note though that there is a difference between describing the
> users as twits and describing the posts as slimy. Suppose you write a
> letter (the sort that goes on a slab of dead tree) and, instead of
> placing it in an envelope and putting a stamp on it, you hand it to
> the Arac News Insertion Device[1] to do the enveloping for you. He
> does a reasonable job of it, but he uses cobwebs instead of paper for
> the envelope. Sure, it's still readable... but your readers now have
> to rub off a whole lot of cobwebs before they can read what you said.
> That makes your post distasteful, without it being at all your fault -
> other than choosing to use Arac's service. That's how I see Google
> Groups posts. Someone's gone looking for help about Python and has
> found that. It's not their fault that they don't know about
> alternatives; so I point out the alternatives.

Nevertheless, that kind of strong judgmental language is
very likely to be taken as reflecting at least in part on
the poster, especially when the person is from a different 
culture or unsure of their English skills.

And if you truly just want the poster to be apprised of 
alternatives, I sure you'll grant me the right to point out 
the alternative you consistently leave out: the option to 
continue to use Google Groups.

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#61374

On 09/12/2013 05:07, rurpy@yahoo.com wrote:
> On 12/08/2013 05:27 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 09/12/2013 00:08, rurpy@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On 12/08/2013 12:17 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:06 AM,  <rafaellasav@gmail.com> wrote:>[...]
>> [...]
>> To the OP, please ignore the above, it's sheer, unadulterated rubbish.
>> Nobody has ever been bullied into doing anything.  People have however
>> been asked repeatedly to either A) use the link referenced above to
>> avoid sending double spaced crap here from the inferior google groups
>> product or B) use an alternative technology that doesn't send double
>> spaced crap.
>
> Mark, I appreciate your calm and reasonable requests for people
> to checkout the page you gave a link to, that's why I repeated
> your advice.  It is also why I responded to Chris and not to you.
>
> However it does not change the fact that people here have responded
> in rather extreme way to GG posts including calling GG users "twits"
> and claiming GG posts damage their eyesight, as well as repeatedly
> denying the obvious fact that GG is much easier to use for many than
> to subscribe to a usenet provider or to a mailing list.  One frequently
> sees words like "crap", "slimy", "rubbish" etc to describe GG posts
> which is pretty intimating to people who just want some help with a
> python question using a tool they already know how to use and have
> had no complaints about in other places.
>

Well you can ask iMath, amongst others, not to send double spaced google 
nonsense.  They've been asked repeatedly, politely, but apparently have 
no consideration at all for people who have no interest in seeing this 
ill formed dross spread throughout web land.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#61391 — Meta Fight About Posting (was: python programming help)

On Dec 9, 2013, at 1:34 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

> On 09/12/2013 05:07, rurpy@yahoo.com wrote:
>> On 12/08/2013 05:27 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>>> On 09/12/2013 00:08, rurpy@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On 12/08/2013 12:17 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 6:06 AM,  <rafaellasav@gmail.com> wrote:>[...]
>>> [...]
>>> To the OP, please ignore the above, it's sheer, unadulterated rubbish.
>>> Nobody has ever been bullied into doing anything.  People have however
>>> been asked repeatedly to either A) use the link referenced above to
>>> avoid sending double spaced crap here from the inferior google groups
>>> product or B) use an alternative technology that doesn't send double
>>> spaced crap.
>> 
>> Mark, I appreciate your calm and reasonable requests for people
>> to checkout the page you gave a link to, that's why I repeated
>> your advice.  It is also why I responded to Chris and not to you.
>> 
>> However it does not change the fact that people here have responded
>> in rather extreme way to GG posts including calling GG users "twits"
>> and claiming GG posts damage their eyesight, as well as repeatedly
>> denying the obvious fact that GG is much easier to use for many than
>> to subscribe to a usenet provider or to a mailing list.  One frequently
>> sees words like "crap", "slimy", "rubbish" etc to describe GG posts
>> which is pretty intimating to people who just want some help with a
>> python question using a tool they already know how to use and have
>> had no complaints about in other places.
>> 
> 
> Well you can ask iMath, amongst others, not to send double spaced google nonsense.  They've been asked repeatedly, politely, but apparently have no consideration at all for people who have no interest in seeing this ill formed dross spread throughout web land.

As long as we’re in full scale rant drift, I’d like to remind others of the time honored tradition of changing the post subject, when, er, uh, the subject changes. Because this obviously is not "programming help" anymore.

The python mailing list is the only one I know of that is cross posted between 3 different technologies. Maybe it’s an outgrowth of the “multi paradigm” philosophy of python or something.

It would be an interesting experiment, to shut down the cross forum replication engines for a month. Personally, I think they should each thrive, or die, on their own. If there’s enough mass on the groups to answer the occasional one off question, it’ll go on, indifferent of the existence of the mailing list. Comp.lang.python can truly become a troll haven. :) And the mailing list can be for the more thorough threads, or something.

If you’re worried about “fragmentation”… these weekly rants seem to indicate it’s happened anyway, and the impedance mismatch between styles/technologies/formats is generating more heat from friction than it is contributing light to the cross-sharing. Besides, there’s nothing stopping periodic posts being sent to any of the sites saying “by the way, did you know there’s also a mailing list…”

The nice thing about doing it for a month (or so), is that it’s not a “huge disturbance in the force.”  If it stinks, you turn them back on in a month (or so).

<tongue  in=“cheek”>If you’re still not sold, and find yourself solidly in the “keep it all together” group, I propose, we embrace that idea, and set up a bi-directional engine between the IRC channel (which I’ve found very helpful often) and the mailing list. </>

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#61395 — Re: Meta Fight About Posting (was: python programming help)

On Monday, December 9, 2013 9:14:08 PM UTC+5:30, Travis Griggs wrote:
> As long as we’re in full scale rant drift, I’d like to remind others
> of the time honored tradition of changing the post subject, when,
> er, uh, the subject changes. Because this obviously is not
> "programming help" anymore.

<snipped>

I believe you are missing what's actually at issue here.

Lets just look at this thread:

New poster asks help for a homework problem without saying so

Different list members express concern/annoyance with this

[NO technological (3 different technologies) issues here yet]

This -- annoyance+answers -- continues for while until it morphs into GG-annoyance

The *context* of the earlier annoyance -- kid asking for homework help
without clearly saying so -- is lost in the GG annoyance.

Now GG is clearly annoying
As are kids who ask for homework help without saying so

¿¿Whats the connection??

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#61397 — Re: Meta Fight About Posting (was: python programming help)

On Monday, December 9, 2013 9:55:19 PM UTC+5:30, rusi wrote:
> On Monday, December 9, 2013 9:14:08 PM UTC+5:30, Travis Griggs wrote:
> > As long as we’re in full scale rant drift, I’d like to remind others
> > of the time honored tradition of changing the post subject, when,
> > er, uh, the subject changes. Because this obviously is not
> > "programming help" anymore.


> I believe you are missing what's actually at issue here.

> Lets just look at this thread:

> New poster asks help for a homework problem without saying so

> Different list members express concern/annoyance with this

> [NO technological (3 different technologies) issues here yet]

> This -- annoyance+answers -- continues for while until it morphs into GG-annoyance

> The *context* of the earlier annoyance -- kid asking for homework help
> without clearly saying so -- is lost in the GG annoyance.

> Now GG is clearly annoying
> As are kids who ask for homework help without saying so

> ¿¿Whats the connection??

I should have mentioned/asked: Are you using Google Groups to post?

Your post suffers from one of GG's annoyances – long lines.

If you are using it then I wonder about the *content* of your complaint
If you are not – and the *form* of your post still has a classic-GG nuisance –
then it weakens the anti-GG case.

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#61402 — Re: Meta Fight About Posting (was: python programming help)

In article <058a0d03-4017-4e95-b402-94d8959ecdc9@googlegroups.com>,
 rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Monday, December 9, 2013 9:14:08 PM UTC+5:30, Travis Griggs wrote:
> > As long as wešre in full scale rant drift, Išd like to remind others
> > of the time honored tradition of changing the post subject, when,
> > er, uh, the subject changes. Because this obviously is not
> > "programming help" anymore.
> 
> <snipped>
> 
> I believe you are missing what's actually at issue here.
> 
> Lets just look at this thread:
> 
> New poster asks help for a homework problem without saying so

While it's good nettiquette, I suppose, to state that your question is 
about a homework problem, it's rarely necessary.  They pretty much 
announce themselves :-)

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#61401 — Re: Meta Fight About Posting (was: python programming help)

In article <mailman.3782.1386604348.18130.python-list@python.org>,
 Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> wrote:

> The python mailing list is the only one I know of that is cross posted 
> between 3 different technologies. Maybe it¹s an outgrowth of the ³multi 
> paradigm² philosophy of python or something.

Usenet is not a bicycle.

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#61353

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 11:08 AM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I suspect many
> of them are motivated by political dislike of Google as
> a corporation, or want to stay with the 1990's technology
> they invested time in learning and don't want see change.

Neither. I don't at all hate Google (I quite like the company, and
what it's done for the world), and I use plenty of other Google
services - as you can see, I'm posting from gmail here. The only thing
I call out against is Google Groups, because it is buggy. I'll cry out
against anything else that's buggy, too. Of course, I'll first try to
do things quietly (bug reports to the maintainers), but ultimately,
the solution to buggy software is to NOT USE IT. If Google doesn't
care enough about Groups to bring it up to the standard, then their
penalty has to be reduced usage. In fact, Rurpy, you are actually
encouraging the faulty system, because you're providing ad impressions
and usage stats every time you read or write via GG. When less-buggy
systems see more use than more-buggy systems, big companies have an
incentive to fix bugs.

ChrisA

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#61359

On 12/08/2013 08:05 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 11:08 AM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I suspect many
>> of them are motivated by political dislike of Google as
>> a corporation, or want to stay with the 1990's technology
>> they invested time in learning and don't want see change.
> 
> Neither. I don't at all hate Google (I quite like the company, and
> what it's done for the world), and I use plenty of other Google
> services - as you can see, I'm posting from gmail here.

If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.  There have certainly
been others who have publicly railed against Google. 

> The only thing
> I call out against is Google Groups, because it is buggy. 

And yet you are publicly on record as referring to GG users
as "twits".

> I'll cry out
> against anything else that's buggy, too. Of course, I'll first try to
> do things quietly (bug reports to the maintainers), but ultimately,
> the solution to buggy software is to NOT USE IT. If Google doesn't
> care enough about Groups to bring it up to the standard, then their
> penalty has to be reduced usage. In fact, Rurpy, you are actually
> encouraging the faulty system, because you're providing ad impressions
> and usage stats every time you read or write via GG. When less-buggy
> systems see more use than more-buggy systems, big companies have an
> incentive to fix bugs.

We all use buggy software every day.  *Every* piece of non-trival 
software is buggy -- you already know that.  So you are saying 
that bugs that annoy *you* are ones that *others* should change 
their practice to join your boycott to fix.

You sound like some Unix hard-asses of the 1990's who, by god, weren't
going pollute their software with any kind of MS Windows compatibility.
No supporting a broken OS for them.  They would keep the software pure
and Unix-only and force Microsoft to fix their broken OS.  
Well, most of that software and those programmers have been eliminated
by Darwinian selection, and today cross-platform (or Windows only) 
software is the norm.

So good luck on your crusade to force Google to do things the way
you think is right.  (Especially given the large and growing number
of Python project mailing lists *hosted* on Google Groups.)

Until you're successful, I will try to encourage GG users to post
more compatibly to avoid pissing off the old farts, do what I can 
to support Rusi's attempt to put together a tool to make it easier
to do so, and finally, live with double-spaced "crap" because that
is the lesser of two evils, the other being creating an excessively 
picky and hostile place for newcomers who just want to learn more
about Python.

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#61362

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

"why can't we all just get along?"

Rodney King, RIP

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#61369

On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:10 PM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> We all use buggy software every day.  *Every* piece of non-trival
> software is buggy -- you already know that.  So you are saying
> that bugs that annoy *you* are ones that *others* should change
> their practice to join your boycott to fix.

The ones that have interoperability problems are the ones that need to
be fixed. When a MUD client uses CP-1252 instead of either Latin-1 or
UTF-8, that's a fault in it. (Confession: My own RosMud has that exact
problem, because of what it uses under the covers for screen display.
But it's being retired in favour of Gypsum, which supports full
Unicode and defaults to UTF-8 transport.)

> You sound like some Unix hard-asses of the 1990's who, by god, weren't
> going pollute their software with any kind of MS Windows compatibility.
> No supporting a broken OS for them.  They would keep the software pure
> and Unix-only and force Microsoft to fix their broken OS.
> Well, most of that software and those programmers have been eliminated
> by Darwinian selection, and today cross-platform (or Windows only)
> software is the norm.

And there were Microsoft people in the same era who, by Bill, weren't
going to pollute their software with any kind of standards
compatibility. Let's look at just one product, Internet Explorer:

IE6: Microsoft enjoys a near monopoly and uses this to encourage
people to use IE-only features  Myriad intranet sites get set up that
won't work properly on any other browser.

IE7: Other browsers now actually have some market-share, and people
are agitating for IE to match them in behaviour. Oh dear. Guess we'd
better add tabbed browsing, everyone else has it... the monopoly isn't
enough to maintain itself on its own.

IE8: Actually, it looks like standards compliance is becoming
important. But so is compatibility with IE6. What a pain, what a pain.

IE9 and IE10: The market shift to other browsers and thus the pressure
shift to standards compliance continues. Unfortunately, it's just not
possible to maintain IE6 compatibility, so lots of corporates have to
keep XP and IE6 for their daily use.

(I was in a Subway buying a sandwich a few weeks ago, and the system
was having trouble. Guy was on the phone to the US trying to get it
sorted out. Everything was in IE6. I pity them.)

Windows-only is hardly the norm. There's at least as much software
that's Mac-only or Linux-only as Windows-only. And far far more that's
cross-platform or at least multi-platform. The most important thing is
interoperability - sometimes that means stuff like Samba (specifically
written to talk to a "foreign" system), but more often it means coding
to the pre-written standards. I can write all sorts of TELNET servers
and clients, and I can be confident that they'll work nicely with
other people's clients and servers, and that they'll understand each
other when they say IAC DO NAWS or IAC SB TERMTYPE IS "Gypsum" IAC SE.
If one of them is buggy, it must be fixed, or it must not be used.

ChrisA

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#61438

On 12/09/2013 01:15 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 9, 2013 at 4:10 PM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> We all use buggy software every day.  *Every* piece of non-trival
>> software is buggy -- you already know that.  So you are saying
>> that bugs that annoy *you* are ones that *others* should change
>> their practice to join your boycott to fix.
> 
> The ones that have interoperability problems are the ones that need to
> be fixed. [...snip stuff about mud clients...])

Huh?  You declare a universal truth that interoperability bugs 
need to be fixed but other bugs don't?  A bug that give wrong 
financial results is less important than mojibake sometimes
displayed on a web page?  A bug that cause a connection failure 
is more important than a bug that silently corrupts saved data?
Congratulations, you just won this week's jmf prize (with apologies
to jmf.)

>> You sound like some Unix hard-asses of the 1990's who, by god, weren't
>> going pollute their software with any kind of MS Windows compatibility.
>> No supporting a broken OS for them.  They would keep the software pure
>> and Unix-only and force Microsoft to fix their broken OS.
>> Well, most of that software and those programmers have been eliminated
>> by Darwinian selection, and today cross-platform (or Windows only)
>> software is the norm.
> 
> And there were Microsoft people in the same era who, by Bill, weren't
> going to pollute their software with any kind of standards
> compatibility. 

I don't think that is analogous in the same way. 
 
Unlike most people here, who seem to be driven by an personal
(and emotional judging from the language used) distaste for 
GG posts, and a similar emotional response against MS by the 
Unix elitists in the 1990s, Microsoft's alleged "embrace, 
extend, extinguish" policy was/is (I'm pretty sure) carefully 
thought out and based on rational analysis.

> Let's look at just one product, Internet Explorer:
[...snip MSIE version history claiming decreasing market share 
and increasing standards compliance...]

Not a convincing example at all.  First its not even clear that 
what the factors driving such change are; open standards are only 
one factor.  Not should you assume that all open standards are 
equally important and that MS' (or Google's) response will be 
the same to all standards across all product lines.

Two, although you present MSIE as changing in response to demands
to "match [other browsers] in behaviour" you leave out demands on
those other browsers (and standards) to adopt features of MSIE.  
A unfortunate example might be the W3C consideration (maybe approved 
by now?) of DRM.  It is not a one-way street and standards are 
not cast in stone.

Finally it is an absurd stretch to take pressure applied by large 
corporate customers to MS to adopt more open standards as comparable
to a handful of people in a non-major programming language mailing
list refusing to read posts from GG.

I am not saying that you shouldn't continue to promote your boycott
against Google, just that you shouldn't be surprised or get angry
when the response of some people is similar to my response towards
some friends who want me to stop eating meat to fight factory farming.

> Windows-only is hardly the norm. There's at least as much software
> that's Mac-only or Linux-only as Windows-only.

As much Mac-only software as Windows-only? Possibly, but I doubt 
it although I acknowledge things are moving in that direction. 
As much Linux-only software as Windows-only?  You must be smoking
crack. :-)

> And far far more that's
> cross-platform or at least multi-platform. The most important thing is
> interoperability - sometimes that means stuff like Samba (specifically
> written to talk to a "foreign" system), but more often it means coding
> to the pre-written standards. I can write all sorts of TELNET servers
> and clients, and I can be confident that they'll work nicely with
> other people's clients and servers, and that they'll understand each
> other when they say IAC DO NAWS or IAC SB TERMTYPE IS "Gypsum" IAC SE.
> If one of them is buggy, it must be fixed, or it must not be used.

TELNET?  Does any one still use that except perhaps on secure, 
controlled legacy intranets?  We nuked that and other protocols 
of it's era (FTP etc) for ssh and other (more) secure protocols 
ages ago.

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#61442

On Tue, Dec 10, 2013 at 4:10 PM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Windows-only is hardly the norm. There's at least as much software
>> that's Mac-only or Linux-only as Windows-only.
>
> As much Mac-only software as Windows-only? Possibly, but I doubt
> it although I acknowledge things are moving in that direction.
> As much Linux-only software as Windows-only?  You must be smoking
> crack. :-)

Or just using Linux. Stuff that runs only on Linux is actually a bit
of a problem at times - coders making assumptions about the
environment that aren't guaranteed, and merely happen to be correct on
all current versions of the Linux kernel.

>> And far far more that's
>> cross-platform or at least multi-platform. The most important thing is
>> interoperability - sometimes that means stuff like Samba (specifically
>> written to talk to a "foreign" system), but more often it means coding
>> to the pre-written standards. I can write all sorts of TELNET servers
>> and clients, and I can be confident that they'll work nicely with
>> other people's clients and servers, and that they'll understand each
>> other when they say IAC DO NAWS or IAC SB TERMTYPE IS "Gypsum" IAC SE.
>> If one of them is buggy, it must be fixed, or it must not be used.
>
> TELNET?  Does any one still use that except perhaps on secure,
> controlled legacy intranets?  We nuked that and other protocols
> of it's era (FTP etc) for ssh and other (more) secure protocols
> ages ago.

TELNET protocol is the fundamental basis of MUDs. Doesn't mean there's
a TELNET server at the other end.

ChrisA

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#61320

On 08/12/2013 19:06, rafaellasav@gmail.com wrote:
> i get it, thanks a lot i wrote a different one and it works
>
> def people(age):
>      people=[name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
>      print(people)
>
> people(20)
>
> i have one last question
>
> it asks me to test my program function by running these lines:
> print ’Dan’ in people(18) and ’Cathy’ in people(18)
> print ’Ed’ in people(19) and ’Helen’ in people(19) and\
> ’Irene’ in people(19) and ’Jack’ in people(19) and ’Larry’in
> people(19)
> print ’Alice’ in people(20) and ’Frank’ in people(20) and ’Gary’ in
> people(20)
> print people(21) == [’Bob’]
> print people(22) == [’Kelly’]
> print people(23) == []
>
> but when i wrote these lines it returns me an error
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File "/Users/rafaellasavva/Desktop/people.py", line 19, in <module>
>      print 'Dan' in people(18) and 'Cathy' in people(18)
> TypeError: argument of type 'NoneType' is not utterable
>
> do you know what it might be wrong?
>

You've typed up the error message instead of using cut and paste, which 
is why it says "utterable" instead of "iterable"? :)  Seriously, it's 
already been pointed out that your people function needs a return 
statement.  Without it, the default returned is always None.

Would you also please read and action this
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython as it prevents us seeing 
huge numbers of unwanted newlines which some find extremely irritating.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#61327

On 12/8/2013 2:06 PM, rafaellasav@gmail.com wrote:

Even when you do get what lambda means and how use it,
   name = lambda args: expression
which is a carryover from other languages, is inferior to
   def name(args): return expression
because the function object resulting from lambda does not have a proper 
name attribute.

> def people(age):
>      people=[name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]

An alternative is
[name for name, value in dic.itervalues() if value == age]

In Python 3, remove 'iter'. It this is not homework and you are not 
otherwise forced to start with Python 3, I (and some others here) 
recommend starting with Python 3.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#61344

Le 08.12.2013 20:06, rafaellasav@gmail.com a écrit :
> i get it, thanks a lot i wrote a different one and it works
>
> def people(age):
>      people=[name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
>      print(people)

No it doesn't. You are printing things not returning something.

and combine_list is the most stupidest function you could write
in Python, as it is built-in with the name 'zip'.

  >>> name = ['Alice', 'Bob', 'Cathy', 'Dan', 'Ed', 'Frank', 'Gary', 
'Helen', 'Irene', 'Jack', 'Kelly', 'Larry']
  >>> age = [20, 21, 18, 18, 19, 20, 20, 19, 19, 19, 22, 19]
  >>> dic = dict(zip(name,age))
  >>> def people(age):
  ...     ''' How stupid it is to write three line for a one-line
              function'''
  ...     return [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
  ...
  >>> people(20)
  ['Gary', 'Alice', 'Frank']

Sorry for having being rude, but :
1. you shouldn't post raw homework in any kind of public group
(aren't you supposed to learn something by yourself ?)
2. your teacher is a nut.

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#61319

On Sunday, December 8, 2013 10:32:31 AM UTC-8, rafae...@gmail.com wrote:

[snip]

> def people(age):
>     people=lambda age: [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
>
> people(20)

[snip]

> this is the code i have so far(with the help of the first post ;p). i understand how a function and a dictionary works and what I'm asked to find. but i don't get the lambda age part.

Well then, don't use it!  It's clear that you are new, and at least you have posted some code now, so let me try to help.

>and this code doesn't give me any result

Right, for TWO reasons.

First problem: if your function does not end with a statement like "return people", the function returns a special Python object called None.

Now, if it were me, I would not "wrap" the calculation of your "people" list inside a "people" function for such a short program.  But this is apparently a requirement of your assignment.  My guess is, in the future, you will write a program that calls the people function multiple times.

The "lambda" word has to do with creating something called an "anonymous one-line function."  You don't need that here.  It's more advanced Python.

What you want to do is compute and, importantly, return a list calculated from your dictionary.  That is accomplished by this expression:

"[name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]"

This is called a "list comprehension."  Do you understand what this does?  It's fairly advanced.  I don't teach list comprehensions to my Python students for the first several lessons.

So, now that you have created the list, let's make sure that Python doesn't lose it.  Let's assign a NAME to it.  By the way, it's probably not good form to use the same name for a function and any of its internal variables.  Pick a different name for your list: for example, "p".  Then, return p from your function to your main program.  My suggested rewrite of your function would be:

"""
def people(age):
    p = [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
    return p
"""

The truth is that you can cut this down by even one more line.  This function doesn't need to hold on to the result after it is done returning it, but the computation of the result can be accomplished in one line.  Therefore this will also work:

"""
def people(age):
    return [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
"""

OK, that takes care of Problem 1.

Second problem: you call the "people" function with your statement "people(20)", but you don't do anything with the output.  Once you fix the people function by providing a proper return statement, what does the main program do with the output of the function?  Right now, it just throws it away.  

One solution to the problem is to make sure that the function's output gets a name. Try:

"""
result = people(20)
"""

Now, what do you want to do with result?  I will wait to see your answer on that one before I intervene again.

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#61335

rafaellasav@gmail.com wrote:

> def people(age):
>     people=lambda age: [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
> 
> but i don't get the lambda age part.

Just to explain: YBM has tried to sabotage you by posting a
solution that uses a couple of advanced Python features
(lambda and list comprehensions) that a beginner would be
unlikely to know about. The idea is that if you had simply
handed that code in as-is, your teacher would know that you
had almost certainly not written it yourself.

Anyhow, you seem to be almost there. The only thing now
is that your function needs to *return* the result instead
of printing it out. To illustrate with a different example,
you currently have a function like this:

    def add(a, b):
       print a + b

This is fine as far as it goes, but the drawback is that
printing out the result is all it will ever do. You're
being asked to write a function like this:

    def add(a, b):
       return a + b

This is much more useful, because you can do anything you
like with the result, e.g.

    print add(2, 3) * add(4, 5)

-- 
Greg

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#61342

Le 09.12.2013 01:00, Gregory Ewing a écrit :
> rafaellasav@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> def people(age):
>>     people=lambda age: [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
>>
>> but i don't get the lambda age part.
>
> Just to explain: YBM has tried to sabotage you by posting a
> solution that uses a couple of advanced Python features
> (lambda and list comprehensions) that a beginner would be
> unlikely to know about.

Oh! I've been caught!

;-)

My point is not that I had a problem with the OP (btw asking for
homework in a public group always irrates me), but that the teacher of
the OP is incredibly stupid and illiterate (or should I say
illluterate ?)

So I tried to catch both.

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#61346

Le 08.12.2013 19:32, rafaellasav@gmail.com a écrit :
> On Sunday, December 8, 2013 6:27:34 PM UTC, bob gailer wrote:
>> On 12/8/2013 12:59 PM, rafaellasav@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> i have a dictionary with names and ages for each name. I want to write a function that takes in an age and returns the names of all the people who are that age.
>>
>>> please help
>>
>> Welcome to the python list. Thanks for posting a question.
>>
>>
>>
>> If you were hoping for one of us to write the program for you ... well
>>
>> that's not what we do on this list.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please post the code you have so far and tell us exactly where you need
>>
>> help.
>>
>>
>>
>> Also tell us what version of Python, what OS, and what you use to write
>>
>> and run Python programs.
>
> name = ['Alice', 'Bob', 'Cathy', 'Dan', 'Ed', 'Frank', 'Gary', 'Helen', 'Irene', 'Jack', 'Kelly', 'Larry']
> age = [20, 21, 18, 18, 19, 20, 20, 19, 19, 19, 22, 19]
> dic={}
> def combine_lists(name,age):
>      for i in range(len(name)):
>          dic[name[i]]= age[i]
> combine_lists(name,age)
> print dic
>
> def people(age):
>      people=lambda age: [name for name in dic if dic[name]==age]
>
> people(20)
>
>
>
>
> this is the code i have so far(with the help of the first post ;p). i understand how a function and a dictionary works and what I'm asked to find. but i don't get the lambda age part. and this code doesn't give me any result
>

You didn't write a function which return a result, so you have no
result.

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