Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]
Groups > comp.lang.python > #60686 > unrolled thread
| Started by | rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2013-11-28 05:52 -0800 |
| Last post | 2013-12-04 08:31 -0800 |
| Articles | 7 on this page of 107 — 28 participants |
Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.python
Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 05:52 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-29 00:58 +1100
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 06:17 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-29 01:25 +1100
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 07:04 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-29 02:08 +1100
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-28 15:50 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 08:22 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-28 16:33 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-28 15:49 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-28 15:49 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-28 15:50 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-11-28 11:43 -0500
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-29 04:29 +1100
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-02 13:03 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-02 08:29 -0500
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-02 14:04 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 09:11 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 17:48 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 04:54 +1100
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 18:07 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-02 19:56 -0500
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-02 19:54 -0500
Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 18:17 -0700
Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-02 20:43 -0500
Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 18:27 -0800
Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 20:09 -0700
Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 19:26 -0800
Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-03 04:27 +0000
Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 18:01 +1100
Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 16:30 +1000
Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-03 07:13 +0000
Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-12-04 10:23 +1000
Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-04 14:34 +0000
Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-04 15:21 +0000
Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-03 12:09 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 08:40 -0700
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 08:23 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-11-28 12:23 -0500
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 11:29 -0700
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 10:37 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 11:00 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 12:55 -0700
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-11-28 19:40 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 11:50 -0700
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Arif Khokar <akhokar1234@wvu.edu> - 2013-11-28 19:46 -0500
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-29 14:41 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-11-29 16:17 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-12-04 11:38 +1100
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 17:39 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-04 13:03 +1100
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-12-05 09:47 +1100
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-05 23:42 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-11-28 20:39 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-11-28 16:41 -0500
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches pecore@pascolo.net - 2013-11-30 14:25 +0100
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-12-04 11:40 +1100
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-04 15:50 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-04 16:07 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-04 11:21 -0500
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-04 16:33 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Zero Piraeus <z@etiol.net> - 2013-11-28 13:29 -0300
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-11-29 16:15 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-11-28 17:32 -0500
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-11-28 17:44 -0500
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-29 14:39 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 10:13 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> - 2013-12-04 09:52 -0500
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-04 19:58 -0500
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-05 23:13 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-06 02:36 -0500
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 05:03 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 00:19 +1100
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 05:32 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 00:48 +1100
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 06:11 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 01:51 +1100
ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-06 19:00 +0000
Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2013-12-06 14:34 -0500
Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-06 20:54 +0000
Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 10:42 +1100
Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 18:33 -0800
Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 13:41 +1100
Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 19:16 -0800
Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 15:08 +1100
Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-12-07 03:19 +0000
Re: ASCII and Unicode giacomo boffi <pecore@pascolo.net> - 2013-12-07 17:05 +0100
Re: ASCII and Unicode rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-08 08:41 -0800
Re: ASCII and Unicode Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-08 17:22 +0000
Re: ASCII and Unicode rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-08 09:39 -0800
Re: ASCII and Unicode giacomo boffi <pecore@pascolo.net> - 2013-12-08 21:11 +0100
Re: ASCII and Unicode rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-08 19:02 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-07 12:27 +1300
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-06 21:24 -0500
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 23:43 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-07 02:16 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-07 11:25 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 22:49 +1100
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-07 11:08 -0500
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-12-07 16:15 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-12-07 10:19 -0600
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 08:27 -0800
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-07 12:04 -0500
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-07 03:07 +0000
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-06 22:40 -0500
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-05 02:46 +1100
Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2013-12-04 08:31 -0800
Page 6 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 [6]
| From | Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-07 10:19 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.3701.1386433097.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #61240 |
On 2013-12-07 11:08, Roy Smith wrote: > In article <31f1bb84-1432-446c-a7d4-79ce16f2a543@googlegroups.com>, > wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote: > > > It is on this level the FSR fails. > > What is "FSR"? I apologize if this was explained earlier in the > thread and I can't find the reference. Flexible String Representation = PEP393 http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0393/ -tkc
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-07 08:27 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <4f2f52f7-4f6f-4944-9d61-86f676f0ae82@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #61234 |
On Saturday, December 7, 2013 3:46:02 PM UTC+5:30, wxjm...@gmail.com wrote: > Rusi: > "unicode as a medium is universal in the same way that > ASCII used to be" > Probably, you do not realize deeply how this sentence > is correct. Unicode and ascii are constructed in the > same way. It has not even to do with "characters", but > with mathematics. On the contrary, I'd say we have some rather interesting 'characters' out here. > It is on this level the FSR fails. It is mathematically > wrong by design! Now thats an even more interesting statement. Only not sure what it means Here are some attempts It is wrong therefore unmathematical It is designed so its wrong It is mathematical so its undesigned Any Ive missed??
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-07 12:04 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.3705.1386435884.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #61246 |
On 12/7/13 11:27 AM, rusi wrote: > On Saturday, December 7, 2013 3:46:02 PM UTC+5:30, wxjm...@gmail.com wrote: >> Rusi: > >> "unicode as a medium is universal in the same way that >> ASCII used to be" > >> Probably, you do not realize deeply how this sentence >> is correct. Unicode and ascii are constructed in the >> same way. It has not even to do with "characters", but >> with mathematics. > > On the contrary, I'd say we have some rather interesting > 'characters' out here. > >> It is on this level the FSR fails. It is mathematically >> wrong by design! > > Now thats an even more interesting statement. Only not sure what it means > Here are some attempts > > It is wrong therefore unmathematical > It is designed so its wrong > It is mathematical so its undesigned > > Any Ive missed?? > JMF: Please stop making this claim. The last 20 times you claimed it you didn't convince anyone on this list, and I doubt you have any new information. Rusi: if you are interested in the details, search the archives. -- Ned Batchelder, http://nedbatchelder.com
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-07 03:07 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <52a290ed$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #61117 |
On Thu, 05 Dec 2013 23:13:54 -0800, rusi wrote:
> On Thursday, December 5, 2013 6:28:54 AM UTC+5:30, Roy Smith wrote:
>> The real problem with web forums is they conflate transport and
>> presentation into a single opaque blob, and are pretty much universally
>> designed to be a closed system. Mail and usenet were both engineered
>> to make a sharp division between transport and presentation, which
>> meant it was possible to evolve each at their own pace.
>
>> Mostly that meant people could go off and develop new client
>> applications which interoperated with the existing system. But, it
>> also meant that transport layers could be switched out (as when NNTP
>> gradually, but inexorably, replaced UUCP as the primary usenet
>> transport layer).
>
> There is a deep assumption hovering round-about the above -- what I will
> call the 'Unix assumption(s)'. But before that, just a check on
> terminology. By 'presentation' you mean what people normally call
> 'mail-clients': thunderbird, mutt etc. And by 'transport' you mean
> sendmail, exim, qmail etc etc -- what normally are called
> 'mail-servers.' Right??
Presentation means how the data is presented. Transport means how the
data is transported. It doesn't refer to a specific piece of software
like Thunderbird, but to the logical fact that what people see (the
presentation) is not identical to what gets transported from one computer
to another.
All programs make *some* distinction between the two. Email is encoded,
wrapped with normally-hidden headers, and then sent, before being
displayed at the other end sans such headers. But some programs make a
nice clean distinction. If your mail client converts emails to sound for
the benefit of the blind, that is easy to do because there is a clean
*and public* distinction between the transport and presentation of email
-- everybody can agree on how to extract the message ("Hi Bob, are we
still meeting up for drinks tomorrow night?") from the transportation
layer (the email envelope).
In contrast, that is not the case with nearly all web forums. By
deliberate design, or mere ignorance and neglect, they mix up the message
you care about ("Hi Bob...") and the stuff you need to get that message
(the HTML and Javascript code) in one big ball of mud, and don't have
APIs for getting messages. Or worse, they deliberate obfuscate the
content, in an attempt to lock people in to only using the specific
interface they want you to use.
Consider the difference between (say) Twitter, which has published
standard APIs for reading and writing tweets, and StackOverflow, which as
far as I can tell insists that the one and only way to read and write
comments is via their website. The internal formatting of the website is
not public and is subject to change without notice.
(If I have unfairly maligned StackOverflow, substitute any number of
dozens or hundreds of web forums.)
[...]
> To the extent that these assumptions are invalid, the 'opaque-blob' may
> well be preferable.
No. Nice clean interfaces separating concerns (such as transport and
presentation) have little to do with ASCII text. One can define clear and
open binary protocols too.
--
Steven
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-06 22:40 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <roy-0646E9.22405806122013@news.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #61222 |
In article <52a290ed$0$30003$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>,
Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> In contrast, that is not the case with nearly all web forums. By
> deliberate design, or mere ignorance and neglect, they mix up the message
> you care about ("Hi Bob...") and the stuff you need to get that message
> (the HTML and Javascript code) in one big ball of mud, and don't have
> APIs for getting messages.
BTW, I was going to bring up vBulletin as an example of a typical web
forum which suffers from the "big ball of mud" syndrome. Then I
discovered that it does indeed have a reasonable looking API
(http://www.vbulletin.com/vbcms/content.php/367-API-Overview).
Beautiful Soup is an awesome tool. Even more awesome is when you don't
have to use it :-)
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-05 02:46 +1100 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.3567.1386171985.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #60720 |
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 1:52 AM, Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> wrote: > Mailing lists/Usenet newsgroups remain, as they've been for a very > long time, the solutions of choice for online discussions. Yes, I'm > aware of web forums: I've used hundreds of them. They suck. They ALL > suck, they just all suck differently. I absolutely agree. And Mailman lists are both easy and powerful - I've deployed a number of them and subscribed to many MANY more - and play nicely with other internet standards. Instead of having to remember to check umpteen web-based forums, I just check my emails, which I do constantly anyway. Adding another mailing list costs me nothing; adding another forum costs me quite a bit of time. Ultimately it comes down to this: It would take an enormous amount of effort for something else to replicate the power of SMTP and/or NNTP, ergo nothing has achieved that. The open standards mean there are myriad clients available, and no new protocol or system can ever hope to compete with that. ChrisA
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2013-12-04 08:31 -0800 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.3577.1386174679.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #60720 |
On Dec 4, 2013, at 6:52 AM, Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> wrote: > Yes, I'm > aware of web forums: I've used hundreds of them. They suck. They ALL > suck, they just all suck differently. I could spend the next several > thousand lines explaining why, but instead I'll just abbreviate: they > don't handle threading, they don't let me use my editor of choice, > they don't let me build my own archive that I can search MY way including > when I'm offline, they are brittle and highly vulnerable to abuse > and security breaches, they encourage worst practices in writing > style (including top-posting and full-quoting), they translate poorly > to other formats, they are difficult to archive, they're even more > difficult to migrate (whereas Unix mbox format files from 30 years ago > are still perfectly usable today), they aren't standardized, they > aren't easily scalable, they're overly complex, they don't support > proper quoting, they don't support proper attribution, they can't > be easily forwarded, they...oh, it just goes on. My point being that > there's a reason that the IETF and the W3C and NANOG and lots of other > groups that could use anything they want use mailing lists: they work. One of the best rants I’ve ever read. Full mental harmonic resonance while I read this. Hope you don’t mind, but I think I’ll be plagiarizing your comments in the future. Maybe I’ll post it on a couple of the web forums I currently have the luxury of regularly hating.
[toc] | [prev] | [standalone]
Page 6 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 [6]
Back to top | Article view | comp.lang.python
csiph-web