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"monty" < "python"

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  "monty" < "python" franzferdinand <melo.dumoulin@hotmail.com> - 2013-03-20 06:33 -0700
    Re: "monty" < "python" Jan Oelze <jan@codein.is> - 2013-03-20 14:38 +0100
      Re: "monty" < "python" Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-03-20 09:58 -0400
        Re: "monty" < "python" franzferdinand <melo.dumoulin@hotmail.com> - 2013-03-20 07:03 -0700
          Re: "monty" < "python" Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-03-21 04:08 -0400
            Re: "monty" < "python" Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-03-21 08:45 -0400
              Re: "monty" < "python" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 23:55 +1100
              Re: "monty" < "python" Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-03-21 07:56 -0500
              Re: "monty" < "python" Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-03-21 09:02 -0400
    Re: "monty" < "python" "R. Michael Weylandt" <michael.weylandt@gmail.com> - 2013-03-20 13:40 +0000
    Re: "monty" < "python" Ian Foote <ian@feete.org> - 2013-03-20 14:17 +0000
    Re: "monty" < "python" Jan Oelze <jan@codein.is> - 2013-03-20 15:23 +0100
    Re: "monty" < "python" Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-20 16:04 +0000
      Re: "monty" < "python" jmfauth <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> - 2013-03-20 12:40 -0700
        Re: "monty" < "python" Tim Delaney <tim.delaney@aptare.com> - 2013-03-21 08:02 +1100
          Re: "monty" < "python" jmfauth <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> - 2013-03-23 02:24 -0700
            Re: "monty" < "python" Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-23 16:17 +0000
              Re: "monty" < "python" jmfauth <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> - 2013-03-24 06:31 -0700
                Re: "monty" < "python" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-25 00:44 +1100
                Re: "monty" < "python" Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-24 14:08 +0000
        Re: "monty" < "python" Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-03-20 19:41 -0600
        Re: "monty" < "python" Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-03-21 02:52 +0000
        Re: "monty" < "python" rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-03-20 20:12 -0700
          Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-03-21 04:28 +0000
            Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"] Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2013-03-20 23:26 -0700
              Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"] David H Wild <dhwild@talktalk.net> - 2013-03-21 09:36 +0000
                Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 21:09 +1100
                  Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"] Peter Pearson <ppearson@nowhere.invalid> - 2013-03-21 21:52 +0000
                    Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-22 08:59 +1100
                Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"] istjanichtzufassen@gmail.com - 2013-03-21 06:26 -0700
                  Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-22 00:38 +1100
            Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"] Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-21 17:31 +0000
              Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"] Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-03-21 19:05 -0400
                Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"] Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-03-21 20:09 -0400
                Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"] Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-22 14:14 +0000
              Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"] Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2013-03-24 15:25 +0100
                Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-03-24 08:04 -0700
              Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-24 16:12 +0000
          Re: "monty" < "python" jmfauth <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> - 2013-03-23 02:23 -0700
            Re: "monty" < "python" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-23 20:45 +1100
            Re: "monty" < "python" Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-23 20:56 +1100
            Re: "monty" < "python" Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-23 16:06 +0000

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#41627

On 03/20/2013 01:40 PM, jmfauth wrote:
> I forgot Py33 is now optimized for ascii user, it is no more
> unicode compliant and I stupidely tested/sorted lists of French
> words...

Just because you keep saying it does not make it true.  How is Py33 not
unicode compliant anymore?  And maybe you ought to post some real code
too.  (not like you've posted to date with the little one-liners that
aren't actually used in practice.)

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#41628

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 12:40:57 -0700, jmfauth wrote:

> it [Python3.3] is no more unicode compliant

I don't often call people a liar. I prefer to think that they are merely 
confused, or honestly hold a mistaken belief. But in this case, I will 
make an exception.

JMF, I believe you are deliberately, maliciously lying about Python, to 
further what I believe is your irrational hatred of ASCII users and your 
desire to punish them with poor performance, even when that affects 
*everybody*.


-- 
Steven

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#41629

On Mar 21, 12:40 am, jmfauth <wxjmfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ----
>
> Courageous people can try to do something with the unicode
> collation algorithm (see unicode.org). Some time ago, for the fun,
> I wrote something (not perfect) with a reduced keys table (see
> unicode.org), only a keys subset for some scripts hold in memory.
>
> It works with Py32 and Py33. In an attempt to just see the
> performance and how it "can react", I did an horrible mistake,
> I forgot Py33 is now optimized for ascii user, it is no more
> unicode compliant and I stupidely tested/sorted lists of French
> words...

Now lets take this piece by piece…
"I did an horrible mistake" : I am sorry. Did you get bruised? Break
some bones? And is 'h' a vowel in french?
"I forgot Py33 is now optimized for ascii user"  Ok.
"it is no more unicode compliant" I asked earlier and I ask again --
What do you mean by (non)compliant?

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#41631 — Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"]

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:12:13 -0700, rusi wrote:

> "I did an horrible mistake" [...] is 'h' a vowel in french?

No it is not, and writing "an horrible" is a trivial typo which can 
easily happen if you start thinking "an awful ..." (for example) and then 
change to "horrible". Been there, done that.

But more interesting is the idea that in English we use "an" before words 
that start with a vowel, and "a" with words that start with a consonant: 

a tiger
a car
a house

but

an elephant
an ambulance
an unit

Wait, what? "An unit"? What rubbish is that?

The rule actually depends on the *sound* of the first syllable, not the 
letter. If the first syllable is a consonant sound, we say and write "a", 
even if the first letter is a vowel:

a unique opportunity

since the U in "unique" is pronounced as a "Yoo" sound rather than "Ah" 
sound. Likewise if the first consonant is silent, we use "an":

an honourable man
half an hour

Now think of somebody who pronounces horrible with a silent "h". In 
English, an initial H used to *always* be silent, nowadays only some such 
words are. It's more common in dialect though.

"I made a 'orrible mistake in getting a 'Arry Potter tattoo on my 
forehead."

"I made an 'orrible mistake in getting an 'Arry Potter tattoo on my 
forehead."

Say each sentence aloud. The second sounds far more natural, the "n" in 
"an" creates a bridge between the vowel sounds of "a" and "orrible".

By the way, the "n" in "an" is not the only such "bridging" sound. In 
Shakespearean times, it was usual to use "mine" in the same fashion:

my wife
my peach

but 

mine husband
mine apple



This-language-lesson-was-brought-to-you-by-the-letters-thorn-wynn-and-ash-
ly y'rs,


-- 
Steven

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#41634 — Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"]

On 03/20/2013 09:28 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:12:13 -0700, rusi wrote:
>
>> "I did an horrible mistake" [...] is 'h' a vowel in french?
>
<big snip...>
>
> This-language-lesson-was-brought-to-you-by-the-letters-thorn-wynn-and-ash-
> ly y'rs,
>

As a point of totally irrelevant trivia...
(And I am going strictly from memory of hearing this, so I can't cite any references to confirm 
it, but anyway my memory says...)

The word "apron" was originally "napron", and over the years the phrase "a napron" mutated to 
"an apron".  So that became the accepted word.

      -=- Larry -=-

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#41641 — Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"]

In article <MNydnWm7B9i5NdfMnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Larry Hudson
<orgnut@yahoo.com> wrote:
> The word "apron" was originally "napron", and over the years the phrase
> "a napron" mutated to "an apron".  So that became the accepted word.

Similarly, the snake was a nadder - congruent with the natterjack toad.

-- 
David Wild using RISC OS on broadband
www.davidhwild.me.uk

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#41642 — Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"]

On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 8:36 PM, David H Wild <dhwild@talktalk.net> wrote:
> In article <MNydnWm7B9i5NdfMnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Larry Hudson
> <orgnut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> The word "apron" was originally "napron", and over the years the phrase
>> "a napron" mutated to "an apron".  So that became the accepted word.
>
> Similarly, the snake was a nadder - congruent with the natterjack toad.

Hey look, snakes, we're back on topic!

ChrisA

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#41669 — Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"]

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:09:52 +1100, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 8:36 PM, David H Wild <dhwild@talktalk.net> wrote:
>> In article <MNydnWm7B9i5NdfMnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Larry Hudson
>> <orgnut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> The word "apron" was originally "napron", and over the years the phrase
>>> "a napron" mutated to "an apron".  So that became the accepted word.
>>
>> Similarly, the snake was a nadder - congruent with the natterjack toad.
>
> Hey look, snakes, we're back on topic!

Ha!  Great shot, Chris A.

People who enjoy this sort of linguistic diversion would
very likely enjoy John McWhorter's classes from the Teaching
Company, which is where I first encountered many of the examples
given in this thread.

-- 
To email me, substitute nowhere->spamcop, invalid->net.

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#41670 — Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"]

On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 8:52 AM, Peter Pearson <ppearson@nowhere.invalid> wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 21:09:52 +1100, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 8:36 PM, David H Wild <dhwild@talktalk.net> wrote:
>>> In article <MNydnWm7B9i5NdfMnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Larry Hudson
>>> <orgnut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> The word "apron" was originally "napron", and over the years the phrase
>>>> "a napron" mutated to "an apron".  So that became the accepted word.
>>>
>>> Similarly, the snake was a nadder - congruent with the natterjack toad.
>>
>> Hey look, snakes, we're back on topic!
>
> Ha!  Great shot, Chris A.
>
> People who enjoy this sort of linguistic diversion would
> very likely enjoy John McWhorter's classes from the Teaching
> Company, which is where I first encountered many of the examples
> given in this thread.

I love a good grammar discussion. Programming requires precise use of
some language, so programmers tend to appreciate precise use of other
languages too. Plus, in one of my other lives, I'm a D&D Dungeon
Master with a reputation for puns and wordplay in my descriptions...
though I'm as often slapped as clapped for them.

ChrisA

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#41652 — Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"]

Am Donnerstag, 21. März 2013 10:36:20 UTC+1 schrieb David H Wild:
> In article <MNydnWm7B9i5NdfMnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Larry Hudson
> 
> <orgnut@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> > The word "apron" was originally "napron", and over the years the phrase
> 
> > "a napron" mutated to "an apron".  So that became the accepted word.
> 
> 
> 
> Similarly, the snake was a nadder - congruent with the natterjack toad.
> 

And conversely, the "nickname" once was "an ekename", meaning an additional name.

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#41653 — Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"]

On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 12:26 AM,  <istjanichtzufassen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Am Donnerstag, 21. März 2013 10:36:20 UTC+1 schrieb David H Wild:
>> In article <MNydnWm7B9i5NdfMnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@giganews.com>, Larry Hudson
>>
>> <orgnut@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>> > The word "apron" was originally "napron", and over the years the phrase
>>
>> > "a napron" mutated to "an apron".  So that became the accepted word.
>>
>> Similarly, the snake was a nadder - congruent with the natterjack toad.
>>
>
> And conversely, the "nickname" once was "an ekename", meaning an additional name.

Until Eccles came along. Most people call him by his nickname, which is "Nick".

ChrisA

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#41656 — Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"]

On 2013-03-21, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:

> By the way, the "n" in "an" is not the only such "bridging" sound. In 
> Shakespearean times, it was usual to use "mine" in the same fashion:

In many (most?) modern, non-rhotic, dialects of English one inserts an
"intrusive" bridging "R" sound after a word that ends in certain vowel
sounds and is followed by a word starting with a vowel.

That description is a bit hard to "picture", but if you read the
examples in the link below, you'll recogize it immediately:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R#Linking_R

However, this only affects spoken English -- not written English.

Is the Python language rhotic or non-rhotic?

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Hello, GORRY-O!!
                                  at               I'm a GENIUS from HARVARD!!
                              gmail.com            

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#41677 — Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"]

On 3/21/2013 1:31 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R

> Is the Python language rhotic or non-rhotic?

Python uses American rather that British English, which would make it 
rhotic.

I never imagined that there were people who would mix up 'tuner' and 
'tuna'. Live and learn.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#41680 — Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"]

In article <mailman.3606.1363907158.2939.python-list@python.org>,
 Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:

> On 3/21/2013 1:31 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> 
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R
> 
> > Is the Python language rhotic or non-rhotic?
> 
> Python uses American rather that British English, which would make it 
> rhotic.
> 
> I never imagined that there were people who would mix up 'tuner' and 
> 'tuna'. Live and learn.

Remember, "You can tune a file system, but you can't tune a fish."

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#41686 — Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"]

On 2013-03-21, Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:
> On 3/21/2013 1:31 PM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linking_and_intrusive_R
>
>> Is the Python language rhotic or non-rhotic?
>
> Python uses American rather that British English, which would make it
> rhotic.

Well, there are parts of New England, New York and the Southeast that
have historically been non-rhotic.

> I never imagined that there were people who would mix up 'tuner' and 
> 'tuna'. Live and learn.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! ... the HIGHWAY is
                                  at               made out of LIME JELLO and
                              gmail.com            my HONDA is a barbequeued
                                                   OYSTER!  Yum!

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#41784 — Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"]

Terry Reedy, 22.03.2013 00:05:
> I never imagined that there were people who would mix up 'tuner' and
> 'tuna'. Live and learn.

I assume you know "The Chaos" ?

http://ncf.idallen.com/english.html

Stefan

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#41785 — Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"]

On Mar 24, 7:25 pm, Stefan Behnel <stefan...@behnel.de> wrote:
>
> I assume you know "The Chaos" ?
>
> http://ncf.idallen.com/english.html

Ha! Sweet! (Or should I say suet?)

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#41792 — Re: Vowels [was Re: "monty" < "python"]

On 24/03/2013 14:25, Stefan Behnel wrote:
> Terry Reedy, 22.03.2013 00:05:
>> I never imagined that there were people who would mix up 'tuner' and
>> 'tuna'. Live and learn.
>
> I assume you know "The Chaos" ?
>
> http://ncf.idallen.com/english.html
>
> Stefan
>
>

For many years I've felt it was wrong that people apologised for their 
poor English.  Having read the above link I feel compelled to state, 
please do not apologise for your poor English.

-- 
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence

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#41719

On 21 mar, 04:12, rusi <rustompm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 21, 12:40 am, jmfauth <wxjmfa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > ----
>
> > Courageous people can try to do something with the unicode
> > collation algorithm (see unicode.org). Some time ago, for the fun,
> > I wrote something (not perfect) with a reduced keys table (see
> > unicode.org), only a keys subset for some scripts hold in memory.
>
> > It works with Py32 and Py33. In an attempt to just see the
> > performance and how it "can react", I did an horrible mistake,
> > I forgot Py33 is now optimized for ascii user, it is no more
> > unicode compliant and I stupidely tested/sorted lists of French
> > words...
>
> Now lets take this piece by piece…
> "I did an horrible mistake" : I am sorry. Did you get bruised? Break
> some bones? And is 'h' a vowel in french?
> "I forgot Py33 is now optimized for ascii user"  Ok.
> "it is no more unicode compliant" I asked earlier and I ask again --
> What do you mean by (non)compliant?

------

One aspect of Unicode (note the capitalized "U").

py32
>>> timeit.repeat("'abc需'.find('a')")
[0.27941279564856814, 0.26568106110789813, 0.265546366757917]
>>> timeit.repeat("'abcdef'.find('a')")
[0.2891812867801491, 0.26698153112010914, 0.26738994644529157]

py33
timeit.repeat("'abc需'.find('a')")
[0.5941777382531654, 0.5829193385634426, 0.5519412133990045]
timeit.repeat("'abcdef'.find('a')")
[0.44333188136533863, 0.4232506078969891, 0.4225164843046514]


---

In French, depending of the word, a leading "h", behaves
as a vowel or as a consonant.
(From this -> this typical mistake)

jmf

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#41721

On Sat, Mar 23, 2013 at 8:23 PM, jmfauth <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> wrote:
> One aspect of Unicode (note the capitalized "U").
>
> [chomp yet another trivial microbenchmark]
>
> ---
>
> In French, depending of the word, a leading "h", behaves
> as a vowel or as a consonant.
> (From this -> this typical mistake)

Huh? Did jmf and 88888 Dihedral just team up to make a post?

ChrisA

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