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Managing Google Groups headaches

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  Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 05:52 -0800
    Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-29 00:58 +1100
      Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 06:17 -0800
        Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-29 01:25 +1100
          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 07:04 -0800
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-29 02:08 +1100
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-28 15:50 +0000
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 08:22 -0800
                  Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-28 16:33 +0000
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-28 15:49 +0000
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-28 15:49 +0000
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-28 15:50 +0000
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-11-28 11:43 -0500
                  Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-29 04:29 +1100
                  Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-02 13:03 +0000
                    Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-02 08:29 -0500
                      Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-02 14:04 +0000
                        Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 09:11 -0800
                          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 17:48 +0000
                          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 04:54 +1100
                          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-02 18:07 +0000
                      Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-02 19:56 -0500
                  Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-02 19:54 -0500
                  Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 18:17 -0700
                    Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-02 20:43 -0500
                      Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 18:27 -0800
                      Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 20:09 -0700
                        Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-02 19:26 -0800
                    Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-03 04:27 +0000
                      Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 18:01 +1100
                    Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 16:30 +1000
                      Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-03 07:13 +0000
                        Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-12-04 10:23 +1000
                          Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-04 14:34 +0000
                          Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-04 15:21 +0000
                  Re: [OT] Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-03 12:09 +0000
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 08:40 -0700
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 08:23 -0800
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-11-28 12:23 -0500
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 11:29 -0700
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 10:37 -0800
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 11:00 -0800
                  Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 12:55 -0700
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-11-28 19:40 +0000
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 11:50 -0700
                  Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Arif Khokar <akhokar1234@wvu.edu> - 2013-11-28 19:46 -0500
                    Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-29 14:41 +0000
                    Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-11-29 16:17 +0000
                    Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-12-04 11:38 +1100
                      Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-03 17:39 -0800
                        Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-04 13:03 +1100
                        Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-12-05 09:47 +1100
                          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-05 23:42 -0800
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-11-28 20:39 +0000
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-11-28 16:41 -0500
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches pecore@pascolo.net - 2013-11-30 14:25 +0100
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-12-04 11:40 +1100
                  Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-04 15:50 +0000
                    Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-04 16:07 +0000
                    Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-04 11:21 -0500
                    Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-04 16:33 +0000
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Zero Piraeus <z@etiol.net> - 2013-11-28 13:29 -0300
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-11-29 16:15 +0000
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-11-28 17:32 -0500
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-11-28 17:44 -0500
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-29 14:39 +0000
    Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-28 10:13 -0800
      Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Rich Kulawiec <rsk@gsp.org> - 2013-12-04 09:52 -0500
        Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-04 19:58 -0500
          Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-05 23:13 -0800
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-06 02:36 -0500
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 05:03 -0800
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 00:19 +1100
                  Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 05:32 -0800
                    Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 00:48 +1100
                      Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 06:11 -0800
                        Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 01:51 +1100
                ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-06 19:00 +0000
                  Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2013-12-06 14:34 -0500
                  Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-06 20:54 +0000
                  Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 10:42 +1100
                  Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 18:33 -0800
                    Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 13:41 +1100
                      Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 19:16 -0800
                        Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 15:08 +1100
                    Re: ASCII and Unicode [was Re: Managing Google Groups headaches] MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-12-07 03:19 +0000
                  Re: ASCII and Unicode giacomo boffi <pecore@pascolo.net> - 2013-12-07 17:05 +0100
                    Re: ASCII and Unicode rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-08 08:41 -0800
                    Re: ASCII and Unicode Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-08 17:22 +0000
                      Re: ASCII and Unicode rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-08 09:39 -0800
                      Re: ASCII and Unicode giacomo boffi <pecore@pascolo.net> - 2013-12-08 21:11 +0100
                        Re: ASCII and Unicode rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-08 19:02 -0800
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-07 12:27 +1300
                Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-06 21:24 -0500
                  Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-06 23:43 -0800
                    Re: Managing Google Groups headaches wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2013-12-07 02:16 -0800
                      Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-07 11:25 +0000
                        Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 22:49 +1100
                      Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-07 11:08 -0500
                        Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-12-07 16:15 +0000
                        Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-12-07 10:19 -0600
                      Re: Managing Google Groups headaches rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-07 08:27 -0800
                        Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-07 12:04 -0500
            Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-07 03:07 +0000
              Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-06 22:40 -0500
      Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-05 02:46 +1100
      Re: Managing Google Groups headaches Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2013-12-04 08:31 -0800

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#60724

On Thursday, November 28, 2013 11:59:13 PM UTC+5:30, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 11/28/2013 10:23 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> > Funny, I thought the sentiment of many here was, "let's just keep this 
> > as a newsgroup, why do we need the mailing list also?" but I'll admit to 
> > being confused about what people have been proposing for alternate 
> > topologies.
>
> That may well be the majority sentiment here.  I only state my opinion.
>
> Seems like 90% of the problems on this list come from the unchecked
> usenet side of things.  Such as trolls or spam.  For example a certain
> iron-skulled person who posted his whining rants and threats from half a
> dozen different addresses to the annoyance of all.  Despite many calls
> to banish him from the list for his blatant disregard for list
> etiquette, with usenet it's just not possible.  Although I'm sure some
> would argue that's a good thing to be unable to kick offenders off the list.

Do you realize that that person was not using GG?

IOW we are unfortunately conflating two completely unrelated things:
1. GG has some technical problems which are fairly easy to solve
2. All kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones there are 
   spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.

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#60726

On Friday, November 29, 2013 12:07:29 AM UTC+5:30, rusi wrote:
> On Thursday, November 28, 2013 11:59:13 PM UTC+5:30, Michael Torrie wrote:
> > On 11/28/2013 10:23 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
> > > Funny, I thought the sentiment of many here was, "let's just keep this 
> > > as a newsgroup, why do we need the mailing list also?" but I'll admit to 
> > > being confused about what people have been proposing for alternate 
> > > topologies.
> >
> > That may well be the majority sentiment here.  I only state my opinion.
> >
> > Seems like 90% of the problems on this list come from the unchecked
> > usenet side of things.  Such as trolls or spam.  For example a certain
> > iron-skulled person who posted his whining rants and threats from half a
> > dozen different addresses to the annoyance of all.  Despite many calls
> > to banish him from the list for his blatant disregard for list
> > etiquette, with usenet it's just not possible.  Although I'm sure some
> > would argue that's a good thing to be unable to kick offenders off the list.
>
> Do you realize that that person was not using GG?
>
> IOW we are unfortunately conflating two completely unrelated things:
> 1. GG has some technical problems which are fairly easy to solve
> 2. All kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones there are 
>    spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.

To add to that:
1. In this thread itself there is a quadruple-post
2. In an adjacent thread there is the mess due to html mail
3. Sometime ago there was a long argument around the old and unsettled:
   Reply vs Reply-all debate

All these are due to NON use of GG.
Does that mean everyone should use GG?
Heck no!

Just this: Technology will occasionally have problems and these can
usually be solved technically.

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#60729

My point was that the list problems in general seem to be related to
usenet.  GG formatting, spam, trolls.  I guess I should have changed the
subject line.  Ditching usenet solves the GG problem and a number of
other problems as well.

>> IOW we are unfortunately conflating two completely unrelated things:
>> 1. GG has some technical problems which are fairly easy to solve
>> 2. All kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones there are 
>>    spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.
> 
> To add to that:
> 1. In this thread itself there is a quadruple-post

Again, sure this was not due to GG, but it was due to a usenet client.
So again, while usenet isn't the problem per se here, moving away from
usenet would have prevented that particular problem.

> 2. In an adjacent thread there is the mess due to html mail

Guess I never see this since I use thunderbird and I can configure it to
always show plain text.

> 3. Sometime ago there was a long argument around the old and unsettled:
>    Reply vs Reply-all debate

I think the debate was not that but rather should the list messages
default to reply to list or reply to sender.  And I haven't seen that
argument in many years now.  Certainly not in the context of usenet vs
e-mail, which I was addressing.

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#60727

On Thu, 28 Nov 2013 11:00:22 -0800, rusi wrote:

> On Friday, November 29, 2013 12:07:29 AM UTC+5:30, rusi wrote:
>> On Thursday, November 28, 2013 11:59:13 PM UTC+5:30, Michael Torrie
>> wrote:
>> > On 11/28/2013 10:23 AM, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>> > > Funny, I thought the sentiment of many here was, "let's just keep
>> > > this as a newsgroup, why do we need the mailing list also?" but
>> > > I'll admit to being confused about what people have been proposing
>> > > for alternate topologies.
>> >
>> > That may well be the majority sentiment here.  I only state my
>> > opinion.
>> >
>> > Seems like 90% of the problems on this list come from the unchecked
>> > usenet side of things.  Such as trolls or spam.  For example a
>> > certain iron-skulled person who posted his whining rants and threats
>> > from half a dozen different addresses to the annoyance of all. 
>> > Despite many calls to banish him from the list for his blatant
>> > disregard for list etiquette, with usenet it's just not possible. 
>> > Although I'm sure some would argue that's a good thing to be unable
>> > to kick offenders off the list.
>>
>> Do you realize that that person was not using GG?
>>
>> IOW we are unfortunately conflating two completely unrelated things:
>> 1. GG has some technical problems which are fairly easy to solve 2. All
>> kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones there
>> are
>>    spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.
> 
> To add to that:
> 1. In this thread itself there is a quadruple-post 2. In an adjacent
> thread there is the mess due to html mail 3. Sometime ago there was a
> long argument around the old and unsettled:
>    Reply vs Reply-all debate
> 
> All these are due to NON use of GG.
> Does that mean everyone should use GG?
> Heck no!
> 
> Just this: Technology will occasionally have problems and these can
> usually be solved technically.

All true, but the fact remains that the vast majority of GG posters can't 
be bothered to do the necessary, or are too stupid, or simply don't care.

You are the exception which proves the rule. I'm with Chris Angelico on 
this one.

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#60728

On 11/28/2013 11:37 AM, rusi wrote:
> Do you realize that that person was not using GG?

I do but he was using usenet.

> IOW we are unfortunately conflating two completely unrelated things:
> 1. GG has some technical problems which are fairly easy to solve
> 2. All kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones there are 
>    spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.

What they have in common is usenet.  Ditching usenet would solve both
problems.

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#60746

On 11/28/2013 1:50 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 11/28/2013 11:37 AM, rusi wrote:

>> 2. All kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones there are
>>     spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.
>
> What they have in common is usenet.  Ditching usenet would solve both
> problems.

The problem could also be solved through client side filtering (i. e., 
killfiles).  I usually killfile posters who crosspost to unrelated 
groups (which filters 99% of the spam that comes through).  I'm sure 
that the usenet/email gateway could be configured to filter such posts 
on the server side so those who read this list via email won't have 
those problems.

The problem with just using email is that it's a bit more difficult to 
browse archived posts to this group.  After I subscribed to this group 
(comp.lang.python) using my news client, I could immediately browse 
posts made as far back as April.

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#60766

On 29/11/2013 00:46, Arif Khokar wrote:
> On 11/28/2013 1:50 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
>> On 11/28/2013 11:37 AM, rusi wrote:
>
>>> 2. All kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones
>>> there are
>>>     spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.
>>
>> What they have in common is usenet.  Ditching usenet would solve both
>> problems.
>
> The problem could also be solved through client side filtering (i. e.,
> killfiles).  I usually killfile posters who crosspost to unrelated
> groups (which filters 99% of the spam that comes through).  I'm sure
> that the usenet/email gateway could be configured to filter such posts
> on the server side so those who read this list via email won't have
> those problems.
>

Read through gmane, it's effectively spam free.

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

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#60770

On 2013-11-29, Arif Khokar <akhokar1234@wvu.edu> wrote:
> On 11/28/2013 1:50 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:
>> On 11/28/2013 11:37 AM, rusi wrote:
>
>>> 2. All kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones there are
>>>     spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.
>>
>> What they have in common is usenet.  Ditching usenet would solve both
>> problems.
>
> The problem could also be solved through client side filtering (i. e., 
> killfiles).  I usually killfile posters who crosspost to unrelated 
> groups (which filters 99% of the spam that comes through).  I'm sure 
> that the usenet/email gateway could be configured to filter such posts 
> on the server side so those who read this list via email won't have 
> those problems.
>
> The problem with just using email is that it's a bit more difficult to 
> browse archived posts to this group.  After I subscribed to this group 
> (comp.lang.python) using my news client, I could immediately browse 
> posts made as far back as April.

You're assuming that Usenet === NNTP.  You can point your news client
at gmane.org's NNTP server and get all the benefits of "news" for
regular mailing lists.

-- 
Grant

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#60978

On 28Nov2013 19:46, Arif Khokar <akhokar1234@wvu.edu> wrote:
> The problem with just using email is that it's a bit more difficult
> to browse archived posts to this group.  After I subscribed to this
> group (comp.lang.python) using my news client, I could immediately
> browse posts made as far back as April.

I vastly prefer email.

My first act on joining any mailing list is to download the entire
archive into my local mail store. I have a script for this, for
mailman at least.

Example:

  get-mailman-archive http://mail.python.org/pipermail/pythonmac-sig/ >python-mac.mbox

I then suck the whole thing into the folder to which future list
posts will get filed. That way I have the whole archive, and it is
local, and I can examine it with whatever tools take my fancy
(mairix, mutt, grep, etc).

Most mailman lists make their archives readily available.

This cannot be said for the travesty that is Google Groups, and in
fact almost any other list/group/forum run with other software.

Really, most mailing list archives are easily small enough to do
this routinely.

Happy to assist anyone with scripts etc.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au>

Carpe Daemon - Seize the Background Process
        - Paul Tomblin <ab401@freenet2.carleton.ca>

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#60984

On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 6:10:05 AM UTC+5:30, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> > Dennis Lee Bieber  writes:
> > > [NNTP] clients provide full-fledged editors
> >    and conversely full-fledged editors provide
> >    NNTP clients
>   GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor.
>         - Doug Mohney, in comp.arch


In a similar vein, most phones nowadays are just computers
with a pocket-size form-factor and some wireless networking.

So when you say…

> My first act on joining any mailing list is to download the entire
> archive into my local mail store. I have a script for this, for
> mailman at least.

and you happen to own >1 thingys that have general computing
functionality -- phones, laptops, desktops, etc -- do you sync
all your mailing-lists with all of them?

I know friends who have installed a home-data-store…

[Ive been resisting getting something like a NAS because each new
thingabob I own is one more thing to maintain. I also know from
past experience that such luddite battles are in the end always
lost -- Im no technophile but I expect to live and die a techie]

And inspite of all that it still sometimes happens that one has
to work on a 'machine' that is not one's own.  What then?

The unfortunate and inexorable conclusion is that when the 
(wo)man <-> computer relation goes from 1-1 to 1-many, data and
functionality will move away from 'own-machine' to the cloud.

Will the data be subject to privacy-abuse and worse? Sure
Will the functionality be as good as something one can fine-tune
on one's own computer? heck no!

But in the end, uniform access will trump all that -- compare the 
number of vi+emacs+eclipse users with google-doc users…

So to come back full-circle:

Earlier (your quote paraphrased)
Emacs is a full-blown OS -- only lacks a good editor.
Now: replace 'emacs' with 'firefox'.

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#60987

On Wed, Dec 4, 2013 at 12:39 PM, rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> The unfortunate and inexorable conclusion is that when the
> (wo)man <-> computer relation goes from 1-1 to 1-many, data and
> functionality will move away from 'own-machine' to the cloud.
>
> Will the data be subject to privacy-abuse and worse? Sure
> Will the functionality be as good as something one can fine-tune
> on one's own computer? heck no!

The solution often is to run your own central server and have all
devices connect to that. You get full control and still allow any
device to access the same content.

ChrisA

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#61059

On 03Dec2013 17:39, rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 6:10:05 AM UTC+5:30, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> > My first act on joining any mailing list is to download the entire
> > archive into my local mail store. I have a script for this, for
> > mailman at least.
> 
> and you happen to own >1 thingys that have general computing
> functionality -- phones, laptops, desktops, etc -- do you sync
> all your mailing-lists with all of them?

No. I'm using a laptops my primary host, and it has the mailing
lists (and all my email). It is usually on and fetches and files
my email; it also forwards _specific_ stuff to a separate mail
account accessed by my phone.

I used to use a home server, but the remote access, while fairly
transparent (script to "ssh then run mutt"), was irritating. And
when I didn't have remote access, very very irritating.

So I'm choosing the better environment with my email local to the laptop and
a select copy of important things (work and friends) copied to an account for
my phone.

[...]
> And inspite of all that it still sometimes happens that one has
> to work on a 'machine' that is not one's own.  What then?

Fingers crossed the important stuff gets to my phone. If urgent I
can reply from that, and I'm somewhat up to date on what I care
about. The phone also has (disabled) access to my primary mail spool
for circumstances when the laptop is offline. When online, the
laptop empties that spool ad forwards particulars. When offline, I
can consult what's queuing up.

> The unfortunate and inexorable conclusion is that when the 
> (wo)man <-> computer relation goes from 1-1 to 1-many, data and
> functionality will move away from 'own-machine' to the cloud.
> Will the data be subject to privacy-abuse and worse? Sure
> Will the functionality be as good as something one can fine-tune
> on one's own computer? heck no!

I'm striving to resist that for now. Privacy. Security. Dependence
on others' hardware and (not mine => wrong!) technical choices of
software.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au>

All it takes is working on someone elses program to understand why they call
it "code".      - Henry O. Farad <lrc@netcom.COM>

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#61119

On Thursday, December 5, 2013 4:17:11 AM UTC+5:30, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> On 03Dec2013 17:39, rusi wrote:
> > On Wednesday, December 4, 2013 6:10:05 AM UTC+5:30, Cameron Simpson wrote:
> > > My first act on joining any mailing list is to download the entire
> > > archive into my local mail store. I have a script for this, for
> > > mailman at least.
> > and you happen to own >1 thingys that have general computing
> > functionality -- phones, laptops, desktops, etc -- do you sync
> > all your mailing-lists with all of them?

> No. I'm using a laptops my primary host, and it has the mailing
> lists (and all my email). It is usually on and fetches and files
> my email; it also forwards _specific_ stuff to a separate mail
> account accessed by my phone.

> I used to use a home server, but the remote access, while fairly
> transparent (script to "ssh then run mutt"), was irritating. And
> when I didn't have remote access, very very irritating.

> So I'm choosing the better environment with my email local to the laptop and
> a select copy of important things (work and friends) copied to an account for
> my phone.

> [...]
> > And inspite of all that it still sometimes happens that one has
> > to work on a 'machine' that is not one's own.  What then?

> Fingers crossed the important stuff gets to my phone. If urgent I
> can reply from that, and I'm somewhat up to date on what I care
> about. The phone also has (disabled) access to my primary mail spool
> for circumstances when the laptop is offline. When online, the
> laptop empties that spool ad forwards particulars. When offline, I
> can consult what's queuing up.

> > The unfortunate and inexorable conclusion is that when the 
> > (wo)man <-> computer relation goes from 1-1 to 1-many, data and
> > functionality will move away from 'own-machine' to the cloud.
> > Will the data be subject to privacy-abuse and worse? Sure
> > Will the functionality be as good as something one can fine-tune
> > on one's own computer? heck no!

> I'm striving to resist that for now. Privacy. Security. Dependence
> on others' hardware and (not mine => wrong!) technical choices of
> software.

Thanks Cameron. I am not sure how to parse the last sentence but on the
whole thanks for a fair balanced and honest review.

I think I have similar sentiments, viz.  I am not one to gush about
the latest gizmodic blissiness, however whenever Ive resisted and been
a late adopter -- color monitor, laptop, cellphone, credit card etc
etc -- in the end Ive had to move with the time and not been
better-off for my earlier resistance.

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#60730

On Thu, 28 Nov 2013 11:50:47 -0700, Michael Torrie wrote:

> On 11/28/2013 11:37 AM, rusi wrote:
>> Do you realize that that person was not using GG?
> 
> I do but he was using usenet.
> 
>> IOW we are unfortunately conflating two completely unrelated things:
>> 1. GG has some technical problems which are fairly easy to solve 2. All
>> kinds of people hop onto the list. In addition to genuine ones there
>> are
>>    spammers, trolls, dicks, nuts, philosophers, help-vampires etc etc.
> 
> What they have in common is usenet.  Ditching usenet would solve both
> problems.

Sledgehammer to crack a nut IMO. It's only Alister who appears to suffer 
from these "multiple post" problems. And Pan is not the culprit - I'm 
using Pan on both Linux and FreeBSD without issues, as doubtless are many 
others.

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#60733

On Thu, 28 Nov 2013 12:23:06 -0500, Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com>
declaimed the following:

>
>Funny, I thought the sentiment of many here was, "let's just keep this 
>as a newsgroup, why do we need the mailing list also?" but I'll admit to 
>being confused about what people have been proposing for alternate 
>topologies.
>
	Count me on the newsgroup side -- though gmane access to the mailing
list may suffice as long as Google doesn't "peer" with it and
comp.lang.python is allowed to wither away...

	A mailing list would require me to somehow unsubscribe should I be away
from my home connection (my previous life once-removed had me on too many
3-4 week trips to the UK where I would not have access to my accounts) --
otherwise I'd be getting nasty messages from my ISP about having an
overfilled mailbox, and possibly having emails bounce.

	NNTP, OTOH, leaves messages on the server until whatever time-out they
are using, and when I return I can fetch all messages and read/reply
off-line [granted, I don't really go off-line with the DSL -- but with a
limit of 20-30 hours a month of dial-up, one would not stay online with
that]. It's plain text (for the most part), transfers fast, clients provide
full-fledged editors, and doesn't incur the lag for each page load that a
web-based forum does (especially on days when my DSL is <300kbps! I sure
don't need to have a slew of CSS files transferred for each message).
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#60805

Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> writes:

> [NNTP] clients provide full-fledged editors
   and conversely full-fledged editors provide
   NNTP clients

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#60979

On 30Nov2013 14:25, pecore@pascolo.net <pecore@pascolo.net> wrote:
> Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> writes:
> > [NNTP] clients provide full-fledged editors
>    and conversely full-fledged editors provide
>    NNTP clients

  GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor.
        - Doug Mohney, in comp.arch

Sorry, could not resist. I am, of course, a vi user.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au>

[...] look at yourself and, while you're at it, drag your eyes over some of
your mates who also ride bikes. They are doers, are they not, and what of the
rest of the population, that tragic ants nest of ever so busy bodies who
scurry from nest to work and back to the nest again at night, to recharge
themselves for another day of spirit-crushing toil? They are the watchers.
        - Sanford, REVS, 23dec93

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#61028

On 2013-12-04, Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> wrote:
> On 30Nov2013 14:25, pecore@pascolo.net <pecore@pascolo.net> wrote:
>> Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>> > [NNTP] clients provide full-fledged editors
>>    and conversely full-fledged editors provide
>>    NNTP clients
>
>   GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor.
>         - Doug Mohney, in comp.arch

Unix: A set of device drivers used to support the the Emacs operating
      system.

 - Don't remember who, where, or when

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I feel like a wet
                                  at               parking meter on Darvon!
                              gmail.com            

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#61032

On 04/12/2013 15:50, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2013-12-04, Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> wrote:
>> On 30Nov2013 14:25, pecore@pascolo.net <pecore@pascolo.net> wrote:
>>> Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>>> [NNTP] clients provide full-fledged editors
>>>     and conversely full-fledged editors provide
>>>     NNTP clients
>>
>>    GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor.
>>          - Doug Mohney, in comp.arch
>
> Unix: A set of device drivers used to support the the Emacs operating
>        system.
>
>   - Don't remember who, where, or when
>

It's a funny thing the computing world, with some people deriving 
operating systems from raincoats, and others editing code with a 
domestic household cleaner, what next, I ask myself?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#61035

On 12/4/13 11:07 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 04/12/2013 15:50, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2013-12-04, Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> wrote:
>>> On 30Nov2013 14:25, pecore@pascolo.net <pecore@pascolo.net> wrote:
>>>> Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> writes:
>>>>> [NNTP] clients provide full-fledged editors
>>>>     and conversely full-fledged editors provide
>>>>     NNTP clients
>>>
>>>    GNU Emacs is a LISP operating system disguised as a word processor.
>>>          - Doug Mohney, in comp.arch
>>
>> Unix: A set of device drivers used to support the the Emacs operating
>>        system.
>>
>>   - Don't remember who, where, or when
>>
>
> It's a funny thing the computing world, with some people deriving
> operating systems from raincoats, and others editing code with a
> domestic household cleaner, what next, I ask myself?
>

Computing with vacuum cleaners is on the decline at least: 
http://www.vax.co.uk/vacuum-cleaners

--Ned.

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