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Egos, heartlessness, and limitations

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  Egos, heartlessness, and limitations rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 17:39 -0700
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com> - 2011-04-13 18:56 -0600
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-14 11:10 +1000
      Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 18:27 -0700
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Ryan Kelly <ryan@rfk.id.au> - 2011-04-14 11:29 +1000
      Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 19:10 -0700
        Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Ryan Kelly <ryan@rfk.id.au> - 2011-04-14 13:01 +1000
          Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 20:26 -0700
            Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-14 13:43 +1000
              Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 21:05 -0700
                Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com> - 2011-04-13 22:46 -0600
                Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 22:07 -0700
                Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com> - 2011-04-15 22:27 -0600
                  Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-04-16 09:06 -0700
            Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com> - 2011-04-14 06:40 -0700
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-04-13 18:47 -0700
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Ryan Kelly <ryan@rfk.id.au> - 2011-04-14 12:03 +1000
      Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-04-14 12:26 +1000
      Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-14 03:12 +0000
        Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Ryan Kelly <ryan@rfk.id.au> - 2011-04-14 13:23 +1000
        Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 20:41 -0700
        Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-14 01:38 -0400
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-14 12:03 +1000
      Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-04-14 12:27 +1000
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 18:59 -0700
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations John Ladasky <ladasky@my-deja.com> - 2011-04-13 22:08 -0700
      Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-14 15:36 +1000
      Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-14 06:59 +0000
        Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations jmfauth <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> - 2011-04-14 05:02 -0700
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-14 18:36 +1000
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-04-14 18:41 +0000

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#3168

On Apr 13, 10:12 pm, Steven D'Aprano <steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:

> Personally, I'm glad that most of Python Dev don't hang around here. We
> are far better off if Python Dev, you know, actually Devs Python, rather
> than answering (mostly) easy questions and getting stuck in tar-pits.

Nothing wrong with mediating out the work load to proper workers. Yes
the top tier should not be answering remedial questions however that
does not mean they should be removed from the sight of the greater
community. That also does not mean we should have class warfare.

Also stepping in tar-pits is avoidable if one exercises a bit of self-
restraint. And besides, one man's tar-pit is another's combustible
fuel oil for change.

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#3178

On 4/13/2011 11:12 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> Personally, I'm glad that most of Python Dev don't hang around here. We
> are far better off if Python Dev, you know, actually Devs Python, rather
> than answering (mostly) easy questions and getting stuck in tar-pits.

Since 3.2 was released 45 days ago, the active devs have been busy. 
Misc/News in the repository has about about 170 entries for 3.3. At 
least 80% of the changes were also made to 3.1 and 3.2, and most of 
those to 2.7 also. There were perhaps another 10 just for 2.7. So there 
are about 180 unique changes for an average of 4 per day. I suspect the 
average time for each is at least an hour.

When I get up to speed with hg and start contributing again, I will 
spend less time here.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#3152

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> *Please* don't re-post his crap.

Opps sorry :) I have never really known what to do with big-huge-long posts ? :)

Won't happen again!

cheers
James

-- 
-- James Mills
--
-- "Problems are solved by method"

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#3157

James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> writes:

> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:47 AM, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> > *Please* don't re-post his crap.
>
> Opps sorry :) I have never really known what to do with big-huge-long
> posts ? :)

Trim them to a representative sample. Or summarise, if there's no such
sample in the original. And, in either case, show that you've done so
with the editorial use of square brackets around your summary or
ellipsis.

> Won't happen again!

Thanks.

-- 
 \        “I knew it was a shocking thing to say, but … no-one has the |
  `\        right to spend their life without being offended.” —Philip |
_o__)                                              Pullman, 2010-03-28 |
Ben Finney

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#3155

On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 17:39 -0700, rantingrick wrote:
> You know Python is the best damn scripting language in the world.
> However we harbor a collective secret,  an elephant sized skeleton in
> the community closet, a shameful scarlet letter of heartlessness and
> ego centric-ity. Why is this the case? Why have let it go this far?
> And most importantly, why the heck are we not doing something about
> it?
> 
> I have said before that Tkinter is lacking, however in the same breath
> i laid out grandiose plans for a new beginning only to have my words
> fall on deaf ears. Have we become so self absorbed as to care only for
> our status and ego and not for the community at whole? Have we adopted
> a pecking order that has become so ingrained into our minds that it
> cannot escape the clutches of our own pedantic selfishness?
> 
> Some may wonder why i am ranting about this today, well i'll tell you.
> I use Tkinter quite liberally and i always seem to find a limitation
> of the GUI. Now, just because a package has limitation does not render
> it worthless, no! All packages have some limitations whether they be
> literal "brick wall limitations"[BWL], or "stumbling block
> limitations"[SBL], or whatever. Now, whilst i know for a fact that
> Tkinter has many dire [BWL] that render most packages moot. Most of
> the time a budding Tkinter noob will hit upon the stumbling block
> kind. The kind that not only trip you up, but send you flying face
> first in a festering and pungent cess pool full of feces and despair.
> 
> Why must this happen i ask? Whist most of us can agree that [BWL] must
> be accepted as "facts of life" we must never *ever* accept that [SBL]
> to be the norm.
> 
> Now you may be asking yourself, "What are some of the causes of
> "stumbling block limitations". Here is a short list in the promblem
> domain of software...
> 
> 	* Poor Documentation or lack thereof
> 	* Knowledge Hoarding
> 	* Selfishness
> 	* Lack of alturistic tendancies
> 
> These four points represent the meat and potatoes of a community in
> turmoil. A house divided against itself cannot stand. Lets discuss the
> points in detail one by one
> 
> -----------------------------------------
> 1. Poor documentation (or lack thereof):
> -----------------------------------------
> Everyone knows that dcoumentation is important however at the end of
> the day laziness is the rule of thumb for profesionals and weekend
> teckies alike. But why be a part of any open source community and
> propagate laziness? We must be more strict about doumentation. However
> it seems the age old policies of "it's not what you know, but *who*
> you know" or more correct;y adapted tot he situation at hand..."it's
> not imprtant how well you document a module *unless* you are not a
> goodfella (psst: a memeber of Guido inc).
> 
> -----------------------------------------
> 2. Knowledge Hoarding:
> -----------------------------------------
> Somehow, i dunno? I though this was an "open source" comminuty but boy
> was i wrong. The old "Practice what you preach" ring a bell anyone,
> hmm? We have people who would screm from the rafters about MS or some
> other company horading knowledge through evil software patenting
> practices however they have no problem going mum when "johnny the
> noob" can't get module x, y, or z working correctly because of PISS
> POOR DOCUMENTATION! I have enlightened this group long ago of the
> limitless possibilities of IDLE to be a good primer for our budding
> young programmers however like all my great brain children this one
> has been cast aside like a red headed stepchild. Guido himself carries
> most the blame squarely on his shoulders because as we all know IDLE
> was Guildo's baby. And at the beginning this baby looked like a
> keeper, however with years of neglect this baby has matured into a
> lackluster hodge podge of half baked ideas and little or no
> documentation. Not even the best pythonistas can follow this spaghetti
> code without setting aside a full weekend of seclusion that would make
> a hermit envious. Something must be done and i am sick and tired of
> the silence from capitol hill. I want Guido to answer for these
> crimes. I want hime to apologize, and i want him to sit down with me
> (and any other interested parties) so we can formulate a battle plan
> to get us out of this mess. The time for redemtion is nigh Mr Van
> Rossum.
> 
> -----------------------------------------
> Selfishness and lack of alturistic tendancies.
> -----------------------------------------
> Well those two go hand in hand.
> 
> nuff said.
> --rr

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z5jKMEB4hHE

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#3175

I may regret wading into a flame-war, but...

I got started with Python in 2002.  I took one look at TKinter, said
"yuck!", and went searching for something else.  Now, wxPython is a
bit clunky for a Python programmer because of its strong ties to C++
-- but that's what I chose, and it has served me well.  I would like
to see wxPython become the default GUI for our very fine programming
language.

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#3177

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 3:08 PM, John Ladasky <ladasky@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I may regret wading into a flame-war, but...

As long as we leave it at that! :)

> I got started with Python in 2002.  I took one look at TKinter, said
> "yuck!", and went searching for something else.  Now, wxPython is a
> bit clunky for a Python programmer because of its strong ties to C++
> -- but that's what I chose, and it has served me well.  I would like
> to see wxPython become the default GUI for our very fine programming
> language.

That's fine and that's your choice. I however don't feel
that "we" (as a community) or they (the python developers)
should make any GUI toolkit the default for Python (let
alone any programming language).

IHMO GUI toolkits are not a feature of the language but
rather a tool (or library) which is compatible in some way
with your language.

Python is a fine language.

So what if some of the code written _in Python_
(libraires, tools, frameworks, whatever) are a bit
poorly written, documented, or are lacking in features ?

Is this Python's fault ? Should it be ? I don't think so.

This is probably the reason for different groups in the first
place (python-dev, python-core-mentoring, python-ideas, etc)
so that there is a clear separation of "what's what".

Can we stop arguing about this now ?

cheers
James



> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

-- 
-- James Mills
--
-- "Problems are solved by method"

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#3184

On Wed, 13 Apr 2011 22:08:17 -0700, John Ladasky wrote:

> I may regret wading into a flame-war, but...
> 
> I got started with Python in 2002.  I took one look at TKinter, said
> "yuck!", and went searching for something else.  Now, wxPython is a bit
> clunky for a Python programmer because of its strong ties to C++ -- but
> that's what I chose, and it has served me well.  I would like to see
> wxPython become the default GUI for our very fine programming language.


So would many others, but unfortunately there are complications that more 
or less rule out wxPython being supplied as part of the standard library. 
For example, that would require the wxPython developers agreeing to 
synchronizing wxPython updates with Python's schedule, and that's 
unlikely to happen.

Fortunately, if you're using a recent Linux or a Mac with MacPorts, 
installing wxPython should never be more than one command line (or half a 
dozen clicks) away. Windows users aren't quite so lucky, but still, it's 
not like installing it is a major hassle.

Also, in more recent versions of Python, Tkinter has had something of a 
face lift with the introduction of "tiled TK" with native-looking widgets.



-- 
Steven

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#3193

On 14 avr, 08:59,

> Fortunately, if you're using a recent Linux or a Mac with MacPorts,
> installing wxPython should never be more than one command line (or half a
> dozen clicks) away. Windows users aren't quite so lucky, but still, it's
> not like installing it is a major hassle.
>


Probably, the joke of the day :-)

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#3188

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Ryan Kelly <ryan@rfk.id.au> wrote:
> On Thu, 2011-04-14 at 11:46 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> Wait... so where do the Python experts hang out?
>
> Don't panic, there are plenty of experts here :-)
>
> It's an oft-cited troll complaint that many python big-wigs (Guido,
> Raymond H, et al) don't subscribe to python-list.

Apart from Guido, I wouldn't even recognize their names. (I have no
idea who Raymond H is or what his position in the community is.) Does
this make me a bad Python programmer? I don't think so; just makes me
not a major member of the community. (Apologies to Raymond, I don't
mean to slight your contributions; but I would respect you on the
basis of your posts on this list, regardless of your Subversion
contribs.)

> It's also an oft-cited troll conspiracy that Guido hangs out on
> python-list and posts under various pseudonyms.  I think it would be
> kinda fun if he did...

What if he's rantingrick? He would SO be laughing right now....

Chris Angelico

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#3211

On 2011-04-14, rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> wrote:

> [the usual bait]

One has to congratulate RR on how many fish he catches.  I guess we
should just be glad that in this electronic ocean overfishing doesn't
cause a population crash.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Everybody gets free
                                  at               BORSCHT!
                              gmail.com            

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