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Egos, heartlessness, and limitations

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  Egos, heartlessness, and limitations rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 17:39 -0700
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com> - 2011-04-13 18:56 -0600
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-14 11:10 +1000
      Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 18:27 -0700
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Ryan Kelly <ryan@rfk.id.au> - 2011-04-14 11:29 +1000
      Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 19:10 -0700
        Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Ryan Kelly <ryan@rfk.id.au> - 2011-04-14 13:01 +1000
          Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 20:26 -0700
            Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-14 13:43 +1000
              Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 21:05 -0700
                Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com> - 2011-04-13 22:46 -0600
                Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 22:07 -0700
                Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com> - 2011-04-15 22:27 -0600
                  Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-04-16 09:06 -0700
            Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com> - 2011-04-14 06:40 -0700
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-04-13 18:47 -0700
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Ryan Kelly <ryan@rfk.id.au> - 2011-04-14 12:03 +1000
      Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-04-14 12:26 +1000
      Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-14 03:12 +0000
        Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Ryan Kelly <ryan@rfk.id.au> - 2011-04-14 13:23 +1000
        Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 20:41 -0700
        Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-04-14 01:38 -0400
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-14 12:03 +1000
      Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-04-14 12:27 +1000
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com> - 2011-04-13 18:59 -0700
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations John Ladasky <ladasky@my-deja.com> - 2011-04-13 22:08 -0700
      Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations James Mills <prologic@shortcircuit.net.au> - 2011-04-14 15:36 +1000
      Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-04-14 06:59 +0000
        Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations jmfauth <wxjmfauth@gmail.com> - 2011-04-14 05:02 -0700
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-14 18:36 +1000
    Re: Egos, heartlessness, and limitations Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-04-14 18:41 +0000

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#3141 — Egos, heartlessness, and limitations

You know Python is the best damn scripting language in the world.
However we harbor a collective secret,  an elephant sized skeleton in
the community closet, a shameful scarlet letter of heartlessness and
ego centric-ity. Why is this the case? Why have let it go this far?
And most importantly, why the heck are we not doing something about
it?

I have said before that Tkinter is lacking, however in the same breath
i laid out grandiose plans for a new beginning only to have my words
fall on deaf ears. Have we become so self absorbed as to care only for
our status and ego and not for the community at whole? Have we adopted
a pecking order that has become so ingrained into our minds that it
cannot escape the clutches of our own pedantic selfishness?

Some may wonder why i am ranting about this today, well i'll tell you.
I use Tkinter quite liberally and i always seem to find a limitation
of the GUI. Now, just because a package has limitation does not render
it worthless, no! All packages have some limitations whether they be
literal "brick wall limitations"[BWL], or "stumbling block
limitations"[SBL], or whatever. Now, whilst i know for a fact that
Tkinter has many dire [BWL] that render most packages moot. Most of
the time a budding Tkinter noob will hit upon the stumbling block
kind. The kind that not only trip you up, but send you flying face
first in a festering and pungent cess pool full of feces and despair.

Why must this happen i ask? Whist most of us can agree that [BWL] must
be accepted as "facts of life" we must never *ever* accept that [SBL]
to be the norm.

Now you may be asking yourself, "What are some of the causes of
"stumbling block limitations". Here is a short list in the promblem
domain of software...

	* Poor Documentation or lack thereof
	* Knowledge Hoarding
	* Selfishness
	* Lack of alturistic tendancies

These four points represent the meat and potatoes of a community in
turmoil. A house divided against itself cannot stand. Lets discuss the
points in detail one by one

-----------------------------------------
1. Poor documentation (or lack thereof):
-----------------------------------------
Everyone knows that dcoumentation is important however at the end of
the day laziness is the rule of thumb for profesionals and weekend
teckies alike. But why be a part of any open source community and
propagate laziness? We must be more strict about doumentation. However
it seems the age old policies of "it's not what you know, but *who*
you know" or more correct;y adapted tot he situation at hand..."it's
not imprtant how well you document a module *unless* you are not a
goodfella (psst: a memeber of Guido inc).

-----------------------------------------
2. Knowledge Hoarding:
-----------------------------------------
Somehow, i dunno? I though this was an "open source" comminuty but boy
was i wrong. The old "Practice what you preach" ring a bell anyone,
hmm? We have people who would screm from the rafters about MS or some
other company horading knowledge through evil software patenting
practices however they have no problem going mum when "johnny the
noob" can't get module x, y, or z working correctly because of PISS
POOR DOCUMENTATION! I have enlightened this group long ago of the
limitless possibilities of IDLE to be a good primer for our budding
young programmers however like all my great brain children this one
has been cast aside like a red headed stepchild. Guido himself carries
most the blame squarely on his shoulders because as we all know IDLE
was Guildo's baby. And at the beginning this baby looked like a
keeper, however with years of neglect this baby has matured into a
lackluster hodge podge of half baked ideas and little or no
documentation. Not even the best pythonistas can follow this spaghetti
code without setting aside a full weekend of seclusion that would make
a hermit envious. Something must be done and i am sick and tired of
the silence from capitol hill. I want Guido to answer for these
crimes. I want hime to apologize, and i want him to sit down with me
(and any other interested parties) so we can formulate a battle plan
to get us out of this mess. The time for redemtion is nigh Mr Van
Rossum.

-----------------------------------------
Selfishness and lack of alturistic tendancies.
-----------------------------------------
Well those two go hand in hand.

nuff said.
--rr

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#3142

RR:
I do have to ask, before I feed the troll, where the hell is your 
spellchecker? And you were talking about people being lazy? The irony is 
killing me.

Now, you've been told you can fork Idol if you so choose, and you've 
been told to write up information on how you want to replace TKInter as 
well as start the ball rolling in that direction. Why don't you return 
under your rock, or do one of these rather than insulting everyone here 
and demanding people sit down with -you- to formulate a "battle plan?"

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#3143

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 10:39 AM, rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> wrote:
> You know Python is the best damn scripting language in the world.
> However we harbor a collective secret,  an elephant sized skeleton in
> the community closet, a shameful scarlet letter of heartlessness and
> ego centric-ity. Why is this the case? Why have let it go this far?
> And most importantly, why the heck are we not doing something about
> it?
>
> I have said before that Tkinter is lacking, however in the same breath
> i laid out grandiose plans for a new beginning only to have my words
> fall on deaf ears. Have we become so self absorbed as to care only for
> our status and ego and not for the community at whole? Have we adopted
> a pecking order that has become so ingrained into our minds that it
> cannot escape the clutches of our own pedantic selfishness?
>
> Some may wonder why i am ranting about this today, well i'll tell you.
> I use Tkinter quite liberally and i always seem to find a limitation
> of the GUI. Now, just because a package has limitation does not render
> it worthless, no! All packages have some limitations whether they be
> literal "brick wall limitations"[BWL], or "stumbling block
> limitations"[SBL], or whatever. Now, whilst i know for a fact that
> Tkinter has many dire [BWL] that render most packages moot. Most of
> the time a budding Tkinter noob will hit upon the stumbling block
> kind. The kind that not only trip you up, but send you flying face
> first in a festering and pungent cess pool full of feces and despair.
>
> Why must this happen i ask? Whist most of us can agree that [BWL] must
> be accepted as "facts of life" we must never *ever* accept that [SBL]
> to be the norm.
>
> Now you may be asking yourself, "What are some of the causes of
> "stumbling block limitations". Here is a short list in the promblem
> domain of software...
>
>        * Poor Documentation or lack thereof
>        * Knowledge Hoarding
>        * Selfishness
>        * Lack of alturistic tendancies
>
> These four points represent the meat and potatoes of a community in
> turmoil. A house divided against itself cannot stand. Lets discuss the
> points in detail one by one
>
> -----------------------------------------
> 1. Poor documentation (or lack thereof):
> -----------------------------------------
> Everyone knows that dcoumentation is important however at the end of
> the day laziness is the rule of thumb for profesionals and weekend
> teckies alike. But why be a part of any open source community and
> propagate laziness? We must be more strict about doumentation. However
> it seems the age old policies of "it's not what you know, but *who*
> you know" or more correct;y adapted tot he situation at hand..."it's
> not imprtant how well you document a module *unless* you are not a
> goodfella (psst: a memeber of Guido inc).
>
> -----------------------------------------
> 2. Knowledge Hoarding:
> -----------------------------------------
> Somehow, i dunno? I though this was an "open source" comminuty but boy
> was i wrong. The old "Practice what you preach" ring a bell anyone,
> hmm? We have people who would screm from the rafters about MS or some
> other company horading knowledge through evil software patenting
> practices however they have no problem going mum when "johnny the
> noob" can't get module x, y, or z working correctly because of PISS
> POOR DOCUMENTATION! I have enlightened this group long ago of the
> limitless possibilities of IDLE to be a good primer for our budding
> young programmers however like all my great brain children this one
> has been cast aside like a red headed stepchild. Guido himself carries
> most the blame squarely on his shoulders because as we all know IDLE
> was Guildo's baby. And at the beginning this baby looked like a
> keeper, however with years of neglect this baby has matured into a
> lackluster hodge podge of half baked ideas and little or no
> documentation. Not even the best pythonistas can follow this spaghetti
> code without setting aside a full weekend of seclusion that would make
> a hermit envious. Something must be done and i am sick and tired of
> the silence from capitol hill. I want Guido to answer for these
> crimes. I want hime to apologize, and i want him to sit down with me
> (and any other interested parties) so we can formulate a battle plan
> to get us out of this mess. The time for redemtion is nigh Mr Van
> Rossum.
>
> -----------------------------------------
> Selfishness and lack of alturistic tendancies.
> -----------------------------------------
> Well those two go hand in hand.
>
> nuff said.

(I realize I'm also feeding the troll here but...)

RIck (if that's even your real name).

It would be nice for once to see you get off your
lazy "butt" and actually do something rather than
continually "rant" at us. Most of us (myself included)
simply use Python in our day jobs or as a hobby.

Not once have I seen you actually "do something":
1) Write a patch
2) Formalize a new design for xyz
3) File a bug report for xyz

Complaining doesn't really get you very far, nor does
berating others (even if indirectly).

Whilst I agree that there are some folk who "might"
be guilty of egotist / arrogant attitudes there isn't
much anyone can do abou that - that's just part of
life and part of social interaction(s). Get over it.

For the most part - the Python Community as a whole
is very helpful, positive and has a lot of nice thinigs about it
(not just the language).

cheers
James

-- 
-- James Mills
--
-- "Problems are solved by method"

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#3145

On Apr 13, 8:10 pm, James Mills <prolo...@shortcircuit.net.au> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 10:39 AM, rantingrick <rantingr...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]

Hello James,

Whist your post was a bit abrasive i know you are a good person so
that is why i am replying.

> It would be nice for once to see you get off your
> lazy "butt" and actually do something rather than
> continually "rant" at us. Most of us (myself included)
> simply use Python in our day jobs or as a hobby.

I am working James, very hard a work as a matter of fact. I am
planting seeds, seeds for change. But as we know seeds need to be sown
and many bitter winters are keeping these seed from budding into
healthy saplings. In my dream of dreams i see a completely re-written
IDLE, something this community can be proud of, something that young
Python programmers can look to for guidance and knowledge.
Unfortunatly this "something" should have been done long ago but the
will is not there. However no project will ever get "will" unless the
parties start working togehter without prejudices. And this prejudiced
is coming directly from the top tiers of this community. ALL THE WAY
TO THE TOP... james.

> Not once have I seen you actually "do something":
> 1) Write a patch

I have wrote patches, many of them. Some people have written more than
me but mine still count

> 2) Formalize a new design for xyz

I have been formalizing and crusading for many design changes however
my roads have been blocked at every turn by egos and elites.

> 3) File a bug report for xyz

I have mentioned many bugs on this list.

> Complaining doesn't really get you very far, nor does
> berating others (even if indirectly).

There is nothing "indirect" about my statements Mr Mills. They are
meant for a few trouble makers and these trouble makers know who they
are.

> Whilst I agree that there are some folk who "might"
> be guilty of egotist / arrogant attitudes there isn't
> much anyone can do abou that - that's just part of
> life and part of social interaction(s). Get over it.

No, ignoring a problem does not make it go away. We must fight
relentlessly against the infiltration of selfishness into our beloved
community. Just think what would have happend if the world ignored
that little fiery piss ant from Austria with the excessive nose hairs.

> For the most part - the Python Community as a whole
> is very helpful, positive and has a lot of nice thinigs about it
> (not just the language).

Well then let us challenge this community. A pepsi challenge if you
will. Who will help me solve the problem that currently plagues my
Tkinter code? Anyone... i thought so.

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#3146

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 17:39 -0700, rantingrick wrote:
>
> -----------------------------------------
> 1. Poor documentation (or lack thereof):
> -----------------------------------------
> Everyone knows that dcoumentation is important however at the end of
> the day laziness is the rule of thumb for profesionals and weekend
> teckies alike. But why be a part of any open source community and
> propagate laziness? We must be more strict about doumentation. However
> it seems the age old policies of "it's not what you know, but *who*
> you know" or more correct;y adapted tot he situation at hand..."it's
> not imprtant how well you document a module *unless* you are not a
> goodfella (psst: a memeber of Guido inc).

Oh rr, if only the time you spent formulating such eloquent prose could
be devoted instead to improving the documentation whose state you
bemoan.

I weep that your delightful rhetoric is limited to this neglected forum,
where the guardians of python core deign not to tread, and hence denied
its rightful place exalted among python's canonical lore.


> I have enlightened this group long ago of the
> limitless possibilities of IDLE to be a good primer for our budding
> young programmers however like all my great brain children this one
> has been cast aside like a red headed stepchild.

I can only imagine the hi-jinx that ensure at your yearly great brain
family reunion.


  Ryan 

-- 
Ryan Kelly
http://www.rfk.id.au  |  This message is digitally signed. Please visit
ryan@rfk.id.au        |  http://www.rfk.id.au/ramblings/gpg/ for details

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#3154

On Apr 13, 8:29 pm, Ryan Kelly <r...@rfk.id.au> wrote:
> On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 17:39 -0700, rantingrick wrote:

> Oh rr, if only the time you spent formulating such eloquent prose could
> be devoted instead to improving the documentation whose state you
> bemoan.

I would LOVE to improve the doc, however first the student THEN the
teacher. However in this forsaken land the "teachers" do not exist. We
are cast off from the elites and left to wither, wandering in dark
catacombs of source code with many doors but no keys to unlock them.

> I weep that your delightful rhetoric is limited to this neglected forum,
> where the guardians of python core deign not to tread, and hence denied
> its rightful place exalted among python's canonical lore.

I share your anguish. The "elites" have hidden themselves behind an
impenetrable wall called python-dev. They wish not to speak with the
peasants. However they "somehow" find the time to hurl insults though
alternate personalities. They so not have the fortitude to face me in
open battle on the fields of righteousness.

How can they sit up there and look at the tkinter package and keep a
strait face? What an abomination it has become. Anyone who is even a
mediocre professional programmer would look at such code and quickly
discredit the whole community as a bunch of amateurs.

Q1: Why are we allowing this code to exist?
Q2: Why is no one beside myself speaking out?
Q3: Were is the chairman of PSF Steve Holden on these pressing
matters?
Q4: Where is Guido van Rossum for crying out loud? When is he going to
address this issue in public OUTSIDE the safety and comfort of python-
dev?

Come and face me Guido. Surely i am not too scary for you? Answer for
these crimes Guido and then you will be forgiven. Then we can move on.
Then we can be a real community again. We need you to get involved on
a more personal level with our community members. I want to see you
shaking hands and kissing babies. Show your face and let the light
illuminate even the darkest corners of c.l.p. Free your conscience of
these past atrocities...  "For the meek shall inherit and the wicked
be cast into oblivion". Trolls, your days are numbered!

Mr. Van Rossum I look forward to your cooperation and would be
delighted to hear any ideas you may have.

--rr

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#3161

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 19:10 -0700, rantingrick wrote:
> On Apr 13, 8:29 pm, Ryan Kelly <r...@rfk.id.au> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 17:39 -0700, rantingrick wrote:
> 
> I would LOVE to improve the doc, however first the student THEN the
> teacher. However in this forsaken land the "teachers" do not exist. We
> are cast off from the elites and left to wither, wandering in dark
> catacombs of source code with many doors but no keys to unlock them.
>
>  [..snip..]
>
> The "elites" have hidden themselves behind an
> impenetrable wall called python-dev. They wish not to speak with the
> peasants.

Funny you should bring that up.  The folks on python-dev are currently
making a substantial push to increase involvement in python core
development through the "Python Mentors" program.

Site here:

    http://pythonmentors.com/


To quote from the site:

"""
The mission of the Python Core Mentor Program is to provide an open and
welcoming place to connect students, programmers – and anyone interested
in contributing to the Python Core development. This project is based on
the idea that the best way to welcome new people into any project is a
venue which connects them to a variety of mentors who can assist in
guiding them through the contribution process, including discussions on
lists such as python-dev, and python-ideas, the bug tracker, mercurial
questions, code reviews, etc.
"""

So anyone following along this thread, if you're interested in making a
genuine contribution to python as a language, this is a great time and
place to start.


  Ryan



-- 
Ryan Kelly
http://www.rfk.id.au  |  This message is digitally signed. Please visit
ryan@rfk.id.au        |  http://www.rfk.id.au/ramblings/gpg/ for details

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#3166

On Apr 13, 10:01 pm, Ryan Kelly <r...@rfk.id.au> wrote:
> On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 19:10 -0700, rantingrick wrote:
> > On Apr 13, 8:29 pm, Ryan Kelly <r...@rfk.id.au> wrote:
> > > On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 17:39 -0700, rantingrick wrote:
[...]

> Funny you should bring that up.  The folks on python-dev are currently
> making a substantial push to increase involvement in python core
> development through the "Python Mentors" program.
>
> Site here:

[...]

> So anyone following along this thread, if you're interested in making a
> genuine contribution to python as a language, this is a great time and
> place to start.

That was a very helpful post Ian, thank you!

However i have a sneaking suspicion that if i join this group i will
be denied as was the case with other python groups. However the
question remains. Why do we need yet another group? Why can we not use
the comp.lang.python that everyone knows already. Since this is a
group created for noobs, how do you expect them to find out about it?
I have been hanging around for over four years and i did not know
until now. Go figure. The first place people are going to go for
online help is
comp.lang.X for whatever language they are learning.

And who pissed in Guido's punch bowl anyway? Why is he such an elitist
now? Why can he not come over once and a while and rub shoulders with
the little people? He does not have to hang out every day, just drop
in once a week or month at least.

I guess i am just old fashioned but i though "benevolent" was a
*positive* moniker. We need to know what kind of leader we are dealing
with here. We deserve that much. And if he is really "benevolent" then
*I* will apologize to both him and the community at whole. Until then
i wait...

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#3169

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 1:26 PM, rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> wrote:
> And who pissed in Guido's punch bowl anyway? Why is he such an elitist
> now? Why can he not come over once and a while and rub shoulders with
> the little people? He does not have to hang out every day, just drop
> in once a week or month at least.

Because he has better things to do ?
LIke his job at Google ?

cheers
James

-- 
-- James Mills
--
-- "Problems are solved by method"

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#3171

On Apr 13, 10:43 pm, James Mills <prolo...@shortcircuit.net.au> wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 1:26 PM, rantingrick <rantingr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > And who pissed in Guido's punch bowl anyway? Why is he such an elitist
> > now? Why can he not come over once and a while and rub shoulders with
> > the little people? He does not have to hang out every day, just drop
> > in once a week or month at least.
>
> Because he has better things to do ?
> LIke his job at Google ?

We all have jobs James, and we still find the time to help others out
on the list. Guido is the head of a community. A community that,
remember, *he* started! He built this whole thing from nothing. And
luck was on his side because Python became one of the great
languages.

He will be responsible for this community and language as long as he
lives. Yes, that is a very tough road, but he alone choose this road
and he alone reaps the benefits.

Q: Do you think he would be working at Google had it not been for
Python's great success? Google does not just hire "any old CS major"
you know!

But at some point something happened to Guido. Somehow either the
power or the people got to him and seem to have destroyed his
benevolent nature. He gave into the dark-side and crossed a line that
is very hard to uncross.

If he is going to call himself a "benevolent" dictator then for Pete's
sake start acting like one! I understand that he is older and grumpier
now. And likewise I understand the drive to be a part of this
community may be slipping because of old age.

However.

If he is wants to call it quits then come out and say so. Or at least
change his name to "grumpy old dictator" so we will know who and what
we are dealing with. I think he has evolved into a complete jerk (if
you ask me) and i wish he would see the error of his ways.

Just for example: I have talked with Mats on c.l.ruby and i was
unknown to the group. I think it was maybe my fifth or so post on the
mailing list. That was so amazing to have Mats reply to my post! I
have even said some very rotten things about Ruby and STILL he replied
to my idea. It shows that Mats really cares about Ruby and about
anyone who uses his language. He never lets personal disagreements get
in the way of innovation. This kind of involvement by a creator
fosters innovation.

We must never hold grudges so passionately that we refuse to entertain
an idea because it came from the person who you had a previous
disagreement with. A community cannot survive in a shark tank like
this; everyone refusing to trust one another. No! Grow up and grow a
thicker skin. Learn to laugh at others, but most importantly, learn to
laugh at yourself.

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#3172

 >We all have jobs James, and we still find the time to help others out
Whose we? Can you point me to a thread within the last 6 months where 
you actually -helped- someone?
 >I think he has evolved into a complete jerk (if you ask me)
1) We didn't ask you.
2) If he's been under this rock of his and won't come out to "rub 
shoulders with the little people, as you say," how do you know he's a jerk?
 >but most importantly, learn to laugh at yourself.
we all laugh at you, even if you don't, so no worries.

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#3174

rantingrick <rantingr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We all have jobs James, and we still find the time to help others out
> on the list.

I don't think "we" has quite the meaning you believe it does. Or
"help" for that matter.

> Guido is the head of a community. A community that,
> remember, *he* started! He built this whole thing from nothing. And
> luck was on his side because Python became one of the great
> languages.

And over the past few years he's been working on Google App Engine,
that lets _anyone_ run their own Python code on the web using aspects
of Google's backend.

Please point out your contributions to the Python community over that
time frame. Note that rants and long threads do not constitute
"contributions".

> Q: Do you think he would be working at Google had it not been for
> Python's great success? Google does not just hire "any old CS major"
> you know!

According to your previous comment, Google hired him because he was
"lucky".

> But at some point something happened to Guido.

My guess is he got tired of listening to crap like this: "I think he
has evolved into a complete jerk".

The absolute hypocrisy of you accusing _anyone_ else of being ego-
driven is probably the most disgustingly reprehensible thing you've
said to date, out of what is an amazing litany of arrogant crap.

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#3290

 >And who pissed in Guido's punch bowl anyway? Why is he such an elitist
 >now? Why can he not come over once and a while and rub shoulders with
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMEe7JqBgvg

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#3329

On Apr 16, 9:27 am, "Littlefield, Tyler" <ty...@tysdomain.com> wrote:
>  >And who pissed in Guido's punch bowl anyway? Why is he such an elitist
>  >now? Why can he not come over once and a while and rub shoulders withhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMEe7JqBgvg

He he -- Bravo!

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#3197

On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 20:26 -0700, rantingrick wrote:
> On Apr 13, 10:01 pm, Ryan Kelly <r...@rfk.id.au> wrote:
> > On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 19:10 -0700, rantingrick wrote:
> > > On Apr 13, 8:29 pm, Ryan Kelly <r...@rfk.id.au> wrote:
> > > > On Wed, 2011-04-13 at 17:39 -0700, rantingrick wrote:
> [...]
> 
> > Funny you should bring that up.  The folks on python-dev are currently
> > making a substantial push to increase involvement in python core
> > development through the "Python Mentors" program.
> >
> > Site here:
> 
> [...]
> 
> > So anyone following along this thread, if you're interested in making a
> > genuine contribution to python as a language, this is a great time and
> > place to start.
> 
> That was a very helpful post Ian, thank you!
> 
> However i have a sneaking suspicion that if i join this group i will
> be denied as was the case with other python groups. However the
> question remains. Why do we need yet another group? Why can we not use
> the comp.lang.python that everyone knows already. Since this is a
> group created for noobs, how do you expect them to find out about it?
> I have been hanging around for over four years and i did not know
> until now. Go figure. The first place people are going to go for
> online help is
> comp.lang.X for whatever language they are learning.
> 
> And who pissed in Guido's punch bowl anyway? Why is he such an elitist
> now? Why can he not come over once and a while and rub shoulders with
> the little people? He does not have to hang out every day, just drop
> in once a week or month at least.
> 
> I guess i am just old fashioned but i though "benevolent" was a
> *positive* moniker. We need to know what kind of leader we are dealing
> with here. We deserve that much. And if he is really "benevolent" then
> *I* will apologize to both him and the community at whole. Until then
> i wait...
> 
> 
> 

Nobody has to do anything.  This is an open source project.

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#3147

James Mills wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 10:39 AM, rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> wrote:

[weapon of mass-snippitude]

James,

*Please* don't re-post his crap.

~Ethan~

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#3151

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Thu, 2011-04-14 at 11:46 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Ryan Kelly <ryan@rfk.id.au> wrote:
> > I weep that your delightful rhetoric is limited to this neglected forum,
> > where the guardians of python core deign not to tread, and hence denied
> > its rightful place exalted among python's canonical lore.
> 
> Wait... so where do the Python experts hang out?

Don't panic, there are plenty of experts here :-)

It's an oft-cited troll complaint that many python big-wigs (Guido,
Raymond H, et al) don't subscribe to python-list.

Personally I've never really noticed - even if some of the core devs
don't really hang out here, I've always found python-list full of
helpful and knowledgeable people.

It's also an oft-cited troll conspiracy that Guido hangs out on
python-list and posts under various pseudonyms.  I think it would be
kinda fun if he did...


  Cheers,

     Ryan

-- 
Ryan Kelly
http://www.rfk.id.au  |  This message is digitally signed. Please visit
ryan@rfk.id.au        |  http://www.rfk.id.au/ramblings/gpg/ for details

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#3156

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Ryan Kelly <ryan@rfk.id.au> writes:

> On Thu, 2011-04-14 at 11:46 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Ryan Kelly <ryan@rfk.id.au> wrote:
> > > I weep that your delightful rhetoric is limited to this neglected
> > > forum, where the guardians of python core deign not to tread, and
> > > hence denied its rightful place exalted among python's canonical
> > > lore.
> > 
> > Wait... so where do the Python experts hang out?
>
> Don't panic, there are plenty of experts here :-)

Right. The set of “python experts” is well-represented here, even if the
set of “core Python developers” might not be.

> It's also an oft-cited troll conspiracy that Guido hangs out on
> python-list and posts under various pseudonyms. I think it would be
> kinda fun if he did...

I can neither confirm nor deny that rumour.

-- 
 \        “I took it easy today. I just pretty much layed around in my |
  `\        underwear all day. … Got kicked out of quite a few places, |
_o__)                              though.” —Bug-Eyed Earl, _Red Meat_ |
Ben Finney

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#3163

On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:03:15 +1000, Ryan Kelly wrote:

> On Thu, 2011-04-14 at 11:46 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Ryan Kelly <ryan@rfk.id.au> wrote:
>> > I weep that your delightful rhetoric is limited to this neglected
>> > forum, where the guardians of python core deign not to tread, and
>> > hence denied its rightful place exalted among python's canonical
>> > lore.
>> 
>> Wait... so where do the Python experts hang out?
> 
> Don't panic, there are plenty of experts here :-)
> 
> It's an oft-cited troll complaint that many python big-wigs (Guido,
> Raymond H, et al) don't subscribe to python-list.

Raymond Hettinger frequently posts here, both with interesting code 
snippets and recipes, and to answer questions. Particularly if they 
relate to itertools or other code he has contributed. Also Mark Dickson, 
and probably a few others.

Personally, I'm glad that most of Python Dev don't hang around here. We 
are far better off if Python Dev, you know, actually Devs Python, rather 
than answering (mostly) easy questions and getting stuck in tar-pits.




-- 
Steven

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#3165

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Thu, 2011-04-14 at 03:12 +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Thu, 14 Apr 2011 12:03:15 +1000, Ryan Kelly wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 2011-04-14 at 11:46 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
> >> On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 11:29 AM, Ryan Kelly <ryan@rfk.id.au> wrote:
> >> > I weep that your delightful rhetoric is limited to this neglected
> >> > forum, where the guardians of python core deign not to tread, and
> >> > hence denied its rightful place exalted among python's canonical
> >> > lore.
> >> 
> >> Wait... so where do the Python experts hang out?
> > 
> > Don't panic, there are plenty of experts here :-)
> > 
> > It's an oft-cited troll complaint that many python big-wigs (Guido,
> > Raymond H, et al) don't subscribe to python-list.
> 
> Raymond Hettinger frequently posts here, both with interesting code 
> snippets and recipes, and to answer questions.

True.  Sorry Raymond.  You just happened to be the second name that
popped into my head in the "python big-wig" category.

> Personally, I'm glad that most of Python Dev don't hang around here. We 
> are far better off if Python Dev, you know, actually Devs Python, rather 
> than answering (mostly) easy questions and getting stuck in tar-pits.

For the record, I have no personal complaint about anyone's lack of
involvement on python-list.  Just reporting on the perceived state of
affairs.


  Cheers,

     Ryan



-- 
Ryan Kelly
http://www.rfk.id.au  |  This message is digitally signed. Please visit
ryan@rfk.id.au        |  http://www.rfk.id.au/ramblings/gpg/ for details

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