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datetime issue

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  datetime issue Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2012-09-15 10:33 -0700
    Re: datetime issue Jason Friedman <jason@powerpull.net> - 2012-09-15 12:58 -0600
    Re: datetime issue Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2012-09-15 12:05 -0700
      Re: datetime issue Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2012-09-15 12:26 -0700
        Re: datetime issue MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-09-15 21:28 +0100
          Re: datetime issue Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2012-09-15 22:15 -0700
            Re: datetime issue Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-09-16 01:53 -0400
              Re: datetime issue Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2012-09-16 00:51 -0700
                Re: datetime issue Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2012-09-16 01:18 -0700
                Re: datetime issue Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2012-09-16 01:18 -0700
              Re: datetime issue Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2012-09-16 00:51 -0700
              Re: datetime issue Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2012-09-16 01:25 -0700
                Re: datetime issue Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-16 09:53 +0000
                  Re: datetime issue Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2012-09-16 03:15 -0700
                    Re: datetime issue Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-16 10:49 +0000
                      Re: datetime issue Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2012-09-16 03:54 -0700
                        Re: datetime issue Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-16 11:34 +0000
                          Re: datetime issue Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2012-09-16 04:56 -0700
                            Re: datetime issue Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-09-16 15:31 -0400
                    Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-09-16 23:18 +1000
                      Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) pandora.koura@gmail.com - 2012-09-16 08:41 -0700
                        Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2012-09-16 11:57 -0400
                          Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) pandora.koura@gmail.com - 2012-09-16 09:06 -0700
                            Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2012-09-16 12:23 -0400
                            Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-16 16:54 +0000
                            Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-16 20:26 +0100
                            Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2012-09-16 12:32 -0400
                          Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) pandora.koura@gmail.com - 2012-09-16 09:06 -0700
                        Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-16 12:30 -0400
                        Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-16 16:52 +0000
                        Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Mayuresh Kathe <mayuresh@kathe.in> - 2012-09-17 01:09 +0530
                        Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) Jamie Paul Griffin <jamie@kode5.net> - 2012-09-17 14:28 +0100
                      Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) pandora.koura@gmail.com - 2012-09-16 08:44 -0700
                        Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-17 01:57 +1000
                          Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) pandora.koura@gmail.com - 2012-09-16 09:02 -0700
                          Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) pandora.koura@gmail.com - 2012-09-16 09:02 -0700
                        Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2012-09-16 12:28 -0400
                        Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Robert Miles <robertmiles@teranews.com> - 2012-10-31 00:18 -0500
                      Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-09-16 17:47 -0700
                        Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-09-16 20:55 -0400
                          Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-09-16 18:14 -0700
                            Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Robert Miles <robertmiles@teranews.com> - 2012-10-31 00:39 -0500
                              Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Jamie Paul Griffin <jamie@kode5.net> - 2012-11-01 09:55 +0000
                                Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-11-01 15:08 -0700
                                  Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-11-02 10:32 +1100
                                    Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-02 01:25 +0000
                                      Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-11-01 21:42 -0400
                                      Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.demon.co.uk> - 2012-11-02 02:07 +0000
                                      Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-02 14:11 +0000
                                  Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Jamie Paul Griffin <jamie@kode5.net> - 2012-11-02 09:36 +0000
                                    Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-11-02 11:39 -0700
                                      Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-11-03 00:06 +0000
                                      Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Jamie Paul Griffin <jamie@kode5.net> - 2012-11-04 11:13 +0000
                                        Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-11-04 22:10 -0800
                                          Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-11-05 17:39 +1100
                                            Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-11-04 23:34 -0800
                                            Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-11-05 07:56 -0500
                                              Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-11-06 01:20 +1100
                                              Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-05 14:59 +0000
                                                RE: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-11-06 16:52 +0000
                                            Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-06 05:03 +0000
                                              Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-11-06 08:52 -0500
                                                Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups GangGreene <GangGreene@example.com> - 2012-11-06 11:51 -0500
                                                  Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-06 23:14 +0000
                                                    Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups GangGreene <GangGreene@example.com> - 2012-11-06 19:16 -0500
                                                    Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-07 15:13 +0000
                                              Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2012-11-07 18:52 +1300
                                                Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-11-07 01:04 -0500
                                                Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-07 08:15 +0000
                                          Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-11-05 11:28 -0500
                                            Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-05 18:20 +0000
                                              Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-11-05 14:47 -0500
                                                Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-06 04:46 +0000
                                                  RE: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-11-06 17:16 +0000
                                                    Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-06 22:50 +0000
                                                      RE: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-11-06 23:08 +0000
                                                        Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-07 00:13 +0000
                                                          Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Hans Mulder <hansmu@xs4all.nl> - 2012-11-09 12:34 +0100
                                                            Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-10 06:57 +0000
                                                      RE: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Kushal Kumaran <kushal.kumaran+python@gmail.com> - 2012-11-07 15:08 +0530
                                                      Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Hans Mulder <hansmu@xs4all.nl> - 2012-11-09 10:49 +0100
                                                        Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-09 11:30 +0000
                                        Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-11-05 11:41 -0800
                                      Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Virgil Stokes <vs@it.uu.se> - 2012-11-04 17:52 +0100
                                    Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2012-11-03 07:44 +0000
                                      Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-11-03 10:24 -0400
                                        Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-11-03 16:18 +0000
                                      Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-11-04 03:05 +1100
                                  Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-11-02 11:42 -0600
                              Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-11-04 18:39 +0000
                              Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Thomas Rachel <nutznetz-0c1b6768-bfa9-48d5-a470-7603bd3aa915@spamschutz.glglgl.de> - 2012-11-09 12:02 +0100
                      Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Robert Miles <robertmiles@teranews.com> - 2012-09-21 00:22 -0500
                      Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-09-21 15:07 +0000
                        Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2012-09-21 22:11 +0000
                        Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) Hank Gay <hank.gay+eternal.september@gmail.com> - 2012-09-21 20:51 -0400
                          Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-09-22 00:13 -0400
                          Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-09-23 22:25 +0000
                      Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Robert Miles <robertmiles@teranews.com> - 2012-10-31 00:07 -0500
                        Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-10-31 12:32 -0700
                          Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-10-31 22:33 +0000
                            Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Arnaud Delobelle <arnodel@gmail.com> - 2012-10-31 23:58 +0000
                            Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups Jamie Paul Griffin <jamie@kode5.net> - 2012-11-01 09:44 +0000
                    Re: datetime issue Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-09-16 09:22 -0400
                      Re: datetime issue Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-16 23:32 +1000
                        Re: datetime issue Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-17 00:10 +1000
                        gc.get_objects() Matteo Boscolo <matteo.boscolo@boscolini.eu> - 2012-09-17 14:42 +0200
                          Re: gc.get_objects() Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-17 14:16 +0000
                            Re: gc.get_objects() Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-18 02:09 +1000
                            Re: gc.get_objects() Matteo Boscolo <matteo.boscolo@boscolini.eu> - 2012-09-17 19:23 +0200
                            Re: gc.get_objects() Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2012-09-17 17:43 +0000
                    Re: datetime issue Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-10-31 15:11 +0000
                      Re: datetime issue rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-10-31 12:35 -0700
                        Re: datetime issue Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-31 21:38 +0000
                          Re: datetime issue Robert Miles <robertmiles@teranews.com> - 2012-10-31 19:23 -0500
                            Re: datetime issue Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-11-01 00:36 +0000
                          Re: datetime issue rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-11-01 15:00 -0700
                            Re: datetime issue Jamie Paul Griffin <jamie@kode5.net> - 2012-11-02 09:57 +0000
                              Re: datetime issue rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-11-02 11:43 -0700
                        Re: datetime issue Robert Miles <robertmiles@teranews.com> - 2012-10-31 19:09 -0500
                        Re: datetime issue Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-11-01 12:09 +0000
                          Re: datetime issue rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-11-01 15:28 -0700
                Re: datetime issue "Günther Dietrich" <gd.usenet@spamfence.net> - 2012-09-16 15:22 +0200
                  Re: datetime issue pandora.koura@gmail.com - 2012-09-16 08:43 -0700
                    Re: datetime issue Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-09-16 15:35 -0400
                Re: datetime issue MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-09-16 16:27 +0100
                  Re: datetime issue pandora.koura@gmail.com - 2012-09-16 08:40 -0700
                    Re: datetime issue Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-17 01:54 +1000
                    Re: datetime issue Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-16 20:23 +0100
                  Re: datetime issue pandora.koura@gmail.com - 2012-09-16 08:40 -0700
                Re: datetime issue Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-09-16 15:37 -0400
              Re: datetime issue Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2012-09-16 01:25 -0700
          Re: datetime issue Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2012-09-15 22:15 -0700
      Re: datetime issue Νικόλαος Κούρας <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2012-09-15 12:26 -0700

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#29355 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups (was: datetime issue)

On Sep 17, 10:55 am, Roy Smith <r...@panix.com> wrote:
> They didn't buy the service.  They bought the data.  Well, they really
> bought both, but the data is all they wanted.

I thought they'd taken most of the historical data offline now too?

Either way, it was the sort of purchase-and-whither approach you
usually see Yahoo take.

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#32519 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

On 9/16/2012 8:14 PM, alex23 wrote:
> On Sep 17, 10:55 am, Roy Smith <r...@panix.com> wrote:
>> They didn't buy the service.  They bought the data.  Well, they really
>> bought both, but the data is all they wanted.
>
> I thought they'd taken most of the historical data offline now too?

Some of it, but they still had my newsgroups posts from 15 years ago
the last time I looked.

They appear to have taken most of any Fidonet data offline, though.

They appear to be taking some of the spam and other abuse offline
after it's reported by at least two people, but rather slowly and
not keeping up with the amount that's posted.

For those of you running Linux:  You may want to look into whether
NoCeM is compatible with your newsreader and your version of Linux.
It checks newsgroups news.lists.filters and alt.nocem.misc for lists
of spam posts, and will automatically hide them for you.  Not available
for other operating systems, though, except possibly Unix.

NoCeM
http://www.cm.org/nocem.html

bleachbot
http://home.httrack.net/~nocem/

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#32551 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

/ Robert Miles wrote on Wed 31.Oct'12 at  0:39:02 -0500 /

> For those of you running Linux:  You may want to look into whether
> NoCeM is compatible with your newsreader and your version of Linux.
> It checks newsgroups news.lists.filters and alt.nocem.misc for lists
> of spam posts, and will automatically hide them for you.  Not available
> for other operating systems, though, except possibly Unix.

Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now. 

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#32575 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
> Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of
> UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems
> should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and
> Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news
> reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a
> good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I
> can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now.

Are you saying that this group is only for "serious" programmers?

"serious" is also a matter of opinion.  I have some serious
programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that
serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie
languages like Python, but should be developing their skills 
with serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc.

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#32582 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 9:08 AM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
>> Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of
>> UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems
>> should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and
>> Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news
>> reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a
>> good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I
>> can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now.
>
> Are you saying that this group is only for "serious" programmers?

It's not; also, so long as Python maintains an official Windows build,
this list/group will be fielding questions about Windows. But there's
still good reason to grab a Linux.

http://catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#idp29970256

> "serious" is also a matter of opinion.  I have some serious
> programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that
> serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie
> languages like Python, but should be developing their skills
> with serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc.

And there are probably still a few around who maintain that Java, C#,
and even C are too modern, and that serious programmers use FORTRAN or
COBOL. Or assembly language. Let 'em. Meanwhile I'll have demonstrable
code done while they're still fiddling around with details, because my
languages (including, though by no means limited to, Python) do most
of the work for me.

ChrisA

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#32586 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 10:32:08 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

> And there are probably still a few around who maintain that Java, C#,
> and even C are too modern, and that serious programmers use FORTRAN or
> COBOL.

Huh. If you're messing about with ancient[1] languages like Java, C# and 
especially C, you're not a real programmer. Real programmers use modern, 
advanced languages like D, Erlang, Go or Haskell.




[1] "Ancient" is a frame of mind, not a chronological state.


-- 
Steven

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#32587 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

In article <50932111$0$29967$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>,
 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
 
> Huh. If you're messing about with ancient[1] languages like Java, C# and 
> especially C, you're not a real programmer. Real programmers use modern, 
> advanced languages like D, Erlang, Go or Haskell.

Does anybody actually use D for anything?

I looked at the language a while ago.  There seemed to be a lot in it 
that made sense.  Does it get any real use, or is it just an interesting 
research project?

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#32588 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 01:25:37 -0000, Steven D'Aprano  
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:

> Huh. If you're messing about with ancient[1] languages like Java, C# and
> especially C, you're not a real programmer. Real programmers use modern,
> advanced languages like D, Erlang, Go or Haskell.

Advanced?  Huh.  I have here a language that does exactly what I want  
without all that messy syntax nonsense.  I call it "Research Assistant."

-- 
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest Herder to the Masses

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#32631 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

On 2012-11-02, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 10:32:08 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> And there are probably still a few around who maintain that Java, C#,
>> and even C are too modern, and that serious programmers use FORTRAN or
>> COBOL.
>
> Huh. If you're messing about with ancient[1] languages like Java, C# and 
> especially C, you're not a real programmer. Real programmers use modern, 
> advanced languages like D, Erlang, Go or Haskell.

Don't forget Smalltalk!  Old, but always modern and advanced...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! !  Everybody out of
                                  at               the GENETIC POOL!
                              gmail.com            

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#32609 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

/ rurpy@yahoo.com wrote on Thu  1.Nov'12 at 15:08:26 -0700 /

> On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
> > Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of
> > UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems
> > should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering and
> > Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent news
> > reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn is a
> > good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed out. I
> > can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc. now.
 
> Are you saying that this group is only for "serious" programmers?
 
I don't see where my comments suggested that this group is only for serious programmers. I simply believe that the UNIX platform, in whatever form, is better placed and designed for all sorts of computing and engineering projects. The history of UNIX speaks for itself. Many Universities that offer respected and credible science based degree programmes, namely engineering and computing programmes, strongly encourage students to become competent with UNIX systems. Windows in my opinion is really for those who use the internet on a casual basis or in a commercial environment where its staff are not necessarily computer literate and therefore need a platform that they can use which doesn't require them to learn more complex techniques and protocols. But, having said that, I'm not against Windows at all. I use it frequently and enjoy using it most of the time. 

> "serious" is also a matter of opinion.  I have some serious
> programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that
> serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie
> languages like Python, but should be developing their skills 
> with serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc.

That is a narrow minded approach. different languages serve different purposes and it's down to the developer to use which language she needs to achieve what it is they've set out to do. Sometimes, basic shell scripts can be extremely powerful for certain tasks; other needs will require something different. I certainly wouldn't describe Python as a "script-kiddie" language. It's extremely powerful and modern. So there ;-P lol

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#32648 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

On 11/02/2012 03:36 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
> / rurpy@yahoo.com wrote on Thu  1.Nov'12 at 15:08:26 -0700 /
> 
>> On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
>>> Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of 
>>> UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems 
>>> should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering
>>> and Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent
>>> news reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn
>>> is a good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed
>>> out. I can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc.
>>> now.
> 
>> Are you saying that this group is only for "serious" programmers?
> 
> I don't see where my comments suggested that this group is only for
> serious programmers. I simply believe that the UNIX platform, in
> whatever form, is better placed and designed for all sorts of
> computing and engineering projects. The history of UNIX speaks for
> itself. Many Universities that offer respected and credible science
> based degree programmes, namely engineering and computing programmes,
> strongly encourage students to become competent with UNIX systems.
> Windows in my opinion is really for those who use the internet on a
> casual basis or in a commercial environment where its staff are not
> necessarily computer literate and therefore need a platform that they
> can use which doesn't require them to learn more complex techniques
> and protocols. But, having said that, I'm not against Windo ws at
> all. I use it frequently and enjoy using it most of the time.

Wow, that makes me feel like I am back in the 1990s!  
Thanks for the trip down memory lane.  :-)

>> "serious" is also a matter of opinion.  I have some serious 
>> programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that 
>> serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie 
>> languages like Python, but should be developing their skills with
>> serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc.
> 
> That is a narrow minded approach. different languages serve different
> purposes and it's down to the developer to use which language she
> needs to achieve what it is they've set out to do. Sometimes, basic
> shell scripts can be extremely powerful for certain tasks; other
> needs will require something different. I certainly wouldn't describe
> Python as a "script-kiddie" language. It's extremely powerful and
> modern. So there ;-P lol

Right.  I happen to agree with you and was just repeating
an elitist attitude I've often heard where what *I* use 
is for *serious* business and what *they* use is just 
for playing around, for those without as much technical 
competence as me, etc.

Without a quantitative definition of "serious" and some
objective evidence supporting it, your opinion that unix
is more "serious" than windows is as narrow-minded as my
friends' opinion (which was the point I was trying to 
make and which you seem to have missed.)

I don't particularly like Windows and am able to mostly 
avoid it these days, but think you should realize that 
describing it as not for *serious* use is going irritate 
some people and make you look like you are not able to 
make objective judgements.  

(I also hope I haven't just been suckered by a troll
attempt, windows/unix is better then unix/windows being 
an age-old means of trolling.)

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#32673 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

On 02/11/2012 18:39, rurpy@yahoo.com wrote:
> On 11/02/2012 03:36 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
>> / rurpy@yahoo.com wrote on Thu  1.Nov'12 at 15:08:26 -0700 /
>>
>>> On 11/01/2012 03:55 AM, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
>>>> Anybody serious about programming should be using a form of
>>>> UNIX/Linux if you ask me. It's inconceivable that these systems
>>>> should be avoided if you're serious about Software Engineering
>>>> and Computer Science, etc. For UNIX there are loads of decent
>>>> news reading software and mail user agents to learn and use. slrn
>>>> is a good one and point it at gmane.org as someone else pointed
>>>> out. I can't even imagine using a browser or Google Groups, etc.
>>>> now.
>>
>>> Are you saying that this group is only for "serious" programmers?
>>
>> I don't see where my comments suggested that this group is only for
>> serious programmers. I simply believe that the UNIX platform, in
>> whatever form, is better placed and designed for all sorts of
>> computing and engineering projects. The history of UNIX speaks for
>> itself. Many Universities that offer respected and credible science
>> based degree programmes, namely engineering and computing programmes,
>> strongly encourage students to become competent with UNIX systems.
>> Windows in my opinion is really for those who use the internet on a
>> casual basis or in a commercial environment where its staff are not
>> necessarily computer literate and therefore need a platform that they
>> can use which doesn't require them to learn more complex techniques
>> and protocols. But, having said that, I'm not against Windo ws at
>> all. I use it frequently and enjoy using it most of the time.
>
> Wow, that makes me feel like I am back in the 1990s!
> Thanks for the trip down memory lane.  :-)
>
>>> "serious" is also a matter of opinion.  I have some serious
>>> programmer friends who maintain, in complete sincerity, that
>>> serious programmers should not waste time on slow, script-kiddie
>>> languages like Python, but should be developing their skills with
>>> serious professional languages like Java, C#, etc.
>>
>> That is a narrow minded approach. different languages serve different
>> purposes and it's down to the developer to use which language she
>> needs to achieve what it is they've set out to do. Sometimes, basic
>> shell scripts can be extremely powerful for certain tasks; other
>> needs will require something different. I certainly wouldn't describe
>> Python as a "script-kiddie" language. It's extremely powerful and
>> modern. So there ;-P lol
>
> Right.  I happen to agree with you and was just repeating
> an elitist attitude I've often heard where what *I* use
> is for *serious* business and what *they* use is just
> for playing around, for those without as much technical
> competence as me, etc.
>
> Without a quantitative definition of "serious" and some
> objective evidence supporting it, your opinion that unix
> is more "serious" than windows is as narrow-minded as my
> friends' opinion (which was the point I was trying to
> make and which you seem to have missed.)
>
> I don't particularly like Windows and am able to mostly
> avoid it these days, but think you should realize that
> describing it as not for *serious* use is going irritate
> some people and make you look like you are not able to
> make objective judgements.
>
> (I also hope I haven't just been suckered by a troll
> attempt, windows/unix is better then unix/windows being
> an age-old means of trolling.)
>

Does Unix now have clustering, or is it still behind VMS aka Very Much 
Safer?

-- 
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

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#32725 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

/ rurpy@yahoo.com wrote on Fri  2.Nov'12 at 11:39:10 -0700 /

> (I also hope I haven't just been suckered by a troll
> attempt, windows/unix is better then unix/windows being 
> an age-old means of trolling.)

No, i'm not a "troll". I was just adding my opinion to the thread, I assumed that was allowed. I didn't say UNIX is better than Windows, did I; I just feel that Windows is not -- for me anyway -- the most suitable plaform for learning about the science of computing and coding, etc... being a computer science student that's the view i have and share with those I learn with and from. Why must people be accused of trolling everytime they make a statement that conveys a preference over one platform or language, for example, than the other. Provoking someone by labeling them a troll or implying they might be is a bit childish really. 

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#32747 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

On Nov 4, 4:14 pm, Jamie Paul Griffin <ja...@kode5.net> wrote:
> / ru...@yahoo.com wrote on Fri  2.Nov'12 at 11:39:10 -0700 /
>
> > (I also hope I haven't just been suckered by a troll
> > attempt, windows/unix is better then unix/windows being
> > an age-old means of trolling.)
>
> No, i'm not a "troll". I was just adding my opinion to the thread, I assumed that was allowed. I didn't say UNIX is better than Windows, did I; I just feel that Windows is not -- for me anyway -- the most suitable plaform for learning about the science of computing and coding, etc... being a computer science student that's the view i have and share with those I learn with and from. Why must people be accused of trolling everytime they make a statement that conveys a preference over one platform or language, for example, than the other. Provoking someone by labeling them a troll or implying they might be is a bit childish really.

Hi Jamie

Among people who know me, I am a linux nerd: My sister scolded me
yesterday because I put files on her computer without spaces:
DoesAnyoneWriteLikeThis?!?!

Your post reminds me: As someone who has taught CS for 25 years, Ive
not only been party to his Unix-fanboy viewpoint but have even
actively fostered it.  Over time Ive come to have some pangs of
conscience about this. Evidently this kind of attitude has helped no
one: not my students, not the corporations they join, not the society
at large.

So now, on my blog I maintain a record of the foibles of CS academics.
http://blog.languager.org/2011/02/cs-education-is-fat-and-weak-1.html
is a history of CS as it is normally given.

http://blog.languager.org/2011/02/cs-education-is-fat-and-weak-2.html
is the above deconstructed with stupidities of academic CS factored
in.

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#32750 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 5:10 PM, rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> Among people who know me, I am a linux nerd: My sister scolded me
> yesterday because I put files on her computer without spaces:
> DoesAnyoneWriteLikeThis?!?!

My filenames seldom have spaces in them, but that has nothing to do
with how I write English. Names are names. They're not essays, they
are not written as full sentences. When a name contains spaces, it
must be delimited (or the space must be escaped, if your environment
permits) any time it occurs inside some other context - most commonly,
as a command-line argument.

Back when I was using MS-DOS 5, it was possible to have file names
with spaces. It wasn't easy to manipulate them from the command line,
but you could reference them using globs (eg replace the space(s) with
? and hope that there are no false hits). OS/2, when working on a FAT
filesystem, would create files called "EA DATA. SF" or "WP ROOT. SF"
or "WP SHARE. SF" (two spaces in each), and most DOS/Windows programs
wouldn't (couldn't) touch them - they were safe repositories for
system metadata (on smarter filesystems, that sort of thing would be
stored as file attributes, not as separate files).

It's nothing to do with operating system. File names are names, and
spaces in them are seldom worth the hassle unless you manipulate those
files solely using a GUI.

ChrisA

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#32755 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

On Nov 5, 11:40 am, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 5:10 PM, rusi <rustompm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Among people who know me, I am a linux nerd: My sister scolded me
> > yesterday because I put files on her computer without spaces:
> > DoesAnyoneWriteLikeThis?!?!
>
> My filenames seldom have spaces in them, but that has nothing to do
> with how I write English. Names are names. They're not essays, they
> are not written as full sentences. When a name contains spaces, it
> must be delimited (or the space must be escaped, if your environment
> permits) any time it occurs inside some other context - most commonly,
> as a command-line argument.
>
> Back when I was using MS-DOS 5, it was possible to have file names
> with spaces. It wasn't easy to manipulate them from the command line,
> but you could reference them using globs (eg replace the space(s) with
> ? and hope that there are no false hits). OS/2, when working on a FAT
> filesystem, would create files called "EA DATA. SF" or "WP ROOT. SF"
> or "WP SHARE. SF" (two spaces in each), and most DOS/Windows programs
> wouldn't (couldn't) touch them - they were safe repositories for
> system metadata (on smarter filesystems, that sort of thing would be
> stored as file attributes, not as separate files).
>
> It's nothing to do with operating system. File names are names, and
> spaces in them are seldom worth the hassle unless you manipulate those
> files solely using a GUI.
>
> ChrisA

So you and I (and probably many on this list) agree!

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#32766 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

In article <mailman.3269.1352097585.27098.python-list@python.org>,
 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:

> It's nothing to do with operating system. File names are names, and
> spaces in them are seldom worth the hassle unless you manipulate those
> files solely using a GUI.

That's a very ascii-esqe attitude.  In a fully unicode world, I could 
easily see using U+00A0 (NO-BREAK SPACE) in file names, and still have 
space-delimited CLI work just fine.

But, yeah, in the world we live in today, I try to avoid spaces in 
filenames.  But, instead of turning "My File Name" into MyFileName, I'll 
usually do it as My-File-Name or My_File_Name.

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#32770 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

On Mon, Nov 5, 2012 at 11:56 PM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> That's a very ascii-esqe attitude.  In a fully unicode world, I could
> easily see using U+00A0 (NO-BREAK SPACE) in file names, and still have
> space-delimited CLI work just fine.
>

Oh, do you have a "U+00A0-bar" on your keyboard?

ChrisA

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#32773 — Re: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

On 2012-11-05, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <mailman.3269.1352097585.27098.python-list@python.org>,
>  Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's nothing to do with operating system. File names are names, and
>> spaces in them are seldom worth the hassle unless you manipulate those
>> files solely using a GUI.
>
> That's a very ascii-esqe attitude.  In a fully unicode world, I could 
> easily see using U+00A0 (NO-BREAK SPACE) in file names, and still have 
> space-delimited CLI work just fine.

No, it wouldn't work just fine.  You'd never know when looking at
names whether it was a "regular" space or a "no-break space", and
names would be visually ambiguous.  Visually ambiguous names are
horrible.

> But, yeah, in the world we live in today, I try to avoid spaces in 
> filenames.  But, instead of turning "My File Name" into MyFileName, I'll 
> usually do it as My-File-Name or My_File_Name.


-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Boys, you have ALL
                                  at               been selected to LEAVE th'
                              gmail.com            PLANET in 15 minutes!!

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#32832 — RE: Obnoxious postings from Google Groups

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2012-11-05, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> > In article <mailman.3269.1352097585.27098.python-list@python.org>,
> >  Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> It's nothing to do with operating system. File names are names, and
> >> spaces in them are seldom worth the hassle unless you manipulate those
> >> files solely using a GUI.
> >
> > That's a very ascii-esqe attitude.  In a fully unicode world, I could
> > easily see using U+00A0 (NO-BREAK SPACE) in file names, and still have
> > space-delimited CLI work just fine.
> 
> No, it wouldn't work just fine.  You'd never know when looking at
> names whether it was a "regular" space or a "no-break space", and
> names would be visually ambiguous.  Visually ambiguous names are
> horrible.

Not to mention that in the GUI I (usually) want the space to be a
"break space".

> 
> > But, yeah, in the world we live in today, I try to avoid spaces in
> > filenames.  But, instead of turning "My File Name" into MyFileName, I'll
> > usually do it as My-File-Name or My_File_Name.


~Ramit


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