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How to waste computer memory?

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  How to waste computer memory? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-03-17 07:34 -0700
    Re: How to waste computer memory? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2016-03-17 12:21 -0700
      Re: How to waste computer memory? cl@isbd.net - 2016-03-17 20:31 +0000
        Re: How to waste computer memory? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-18 07:42 +1100
          Re: How to waste computer memory? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-03-17 21:08 +0000
            Re: How to waste computer memory? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-18 08:13 +1100
              Re: How to waste computer memory? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-03-17 14:30 -0700
            Re: How to waste computer memory? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-03-17 22:32 +0000
            Re: How to waste computer memory? cl@isbd.net - 2016-03-17 22:42 +0000
          Re: How to waste computer memory? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-17 23:11 +0200
            Re: How to waste computer memory? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-18 08:17 +1100
            Re: How to waste computer memory? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-03-17 21:26 +0000
              Re: How to waste computer memory? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2016-03-17 22:38 +0000
              Re: How to waste computer memory? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-18 10:02 +1100
          Re: How to waste computer memory? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-03-17 21:37 +0000
            Re: How to waste computer memory? alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-03-17 21:43 +0000
            Re: How to waste computer memory? Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2016-03-17 20:51 -0400
              Re: How to waste computer memory? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2016-03-17 18:47 -0700
              Re: How to waste computer memory? cl@isbd.net - 2016-03-18 10:44 +0000
                Re: How to waste computer memory? Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2016-03-18 10:11 -0400
                Re: How to waste computer memory? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-03-19 13:50 +0000
      Re: How to waste computer memory? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-03-18 01:00 -0600
        Re: How to waste computer memory? Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-03-18 10:26 +0200
          Re: How to waste computer memory? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-18 17:26 +0200
            Re: How to waste computer memory? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-19 03:58 +1100
            Re: How to waste computer memory? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-18 23:02 +0200
              Re: How to waste computer memory? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-18 23:28 +0200
                Re: How to waste computer memory? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-19 00:03 +0200
                  Re: How to waste computer memory? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-19 09:49 +0200
                    Re: How to waste computer memory? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-19 10:22 +0200
                      Re: How to waste computer memory? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-19 11:40 +0200
                  Re: How to waste computer memory? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-19 19:38 +1100
              Re: How to waste computer memory? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-03-19 00:14 -0700
                Re: How to waste computer memory? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-03-19 02:17 -0700
              Re: How to waste computer memory? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-19 19:14 +1100
                Re: How to waste computer memory? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-19 11:31 +0200
                  Re: How to waste computer memory? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-03-19 03:40 -0700
                  Re: How to waste computer memory? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-19 13:07 +0200
                    Re: How to waste computer memory? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-03-19 12:24 +0000
                      Re: How to waste computer memory? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-19 14:43 +0200
                      Re: How to waste computer memory? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-20 01:18 +1100
                        Re: How to waste computer memory? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-03-19 15:14 +0000
                          Re: How to waste computer memory? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-03-19 15:20 +0000
                  Re: How to waste computer memory? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-19 22:32 +1100
                    Re: How to waste computer memory? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-19 14:42 +0200
                      Re: How to waste computer memory? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-20 01:39 +1100
                        Re: How to waste computer memory? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-19 16:56 +0200
                    Re: How to waste computer memory? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-03-19 07:01 -0700
                  Re: How to waste computer memory? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-20 01:56 +1100
                    Re: How to waste computer memory? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-19 17:02 +0200
                      Re: How to waste computer memory? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-20 02:47 +1100
                        Re: How to waste computer memory? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-19 18:12 +0200
                          Re: How to waste computer memory? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-20 16:01 +1100
                            Re: How to waste computer memory? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-03-19 23:20 -0700
                              Re: How to waste computer memory? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-20 22:06 +1100
                                Re: How to waste computer memory? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-20 22:22 +1100
                                  Re: How to waste computer memory? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-20 23:14 +1100
                                    Re: How to waste computer memory? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-20 23:27 +1100
                              Re: How to waste computer memory? Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-03-20 14:55 +0000
                                Re: How to waste computer memory? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-20 17:36 +0200
                                Re: How to waste computer memory? Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-03-20 14:17 -0400
                            Re: How to waste computer memory? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-03-20 09:30 +0200
        Re: How to waste computer memory? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-03-18 03:50 -0700
        Re: How to waste computer memory? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-18 22:46 +1100
          Re: How to waste computer memory? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-18 22:58 +1100
            Re: How to waste computer memory? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-03-18 12:53 -0700
          Re: How to waste computer memory? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-03-18 23:37 +1100
          Re: How to waste computer memory? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-03-18 07:57 -0600
      Re: How to waste computer memory? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-03-19 03:44 +1100
        Re: How to waste computer memory? Jussi Piitulainen <jussi.piitulainen@helsinki.fi> - 2016-03-18 20:22 +0200
          Re: How to waste computer memory? wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-03-18 13:03 -0700
    Re: How to waste computer memory? sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2016-03-18 11:18 -0700

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#105093 — How to waste computer memory?

Very simple. Use Python and its (buggy) character encoding
model.

How to save memory?
It's also very simple. Use a programming language, which
handles Unicode correctly.

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#105142

On Thursday, March 17, 2016 at 9:34:46 AM UTC-5, wxjm...@gmail.com wrote:
> Very simple. Use Python and its (buggy) character encoding
> model. How to save memory? It's also very simple. Use a
> programming language, which handles Unicode correctly.

I personally don't have much use for Unicode, so i'm not
affected by the "buggy encoding model". Outside of posting
a "look of disapproval" emoticon on Usenet, or something
silly like that, i mostly avoid Unicode like the plague.
And if one day Unicode went away, and i could no longer
post my silly little emoticon, well, i seriously doubt
that the loss would cause me to slash wrists -- boo-hiss!
  
[tangent]
  I've always found it so silly that people insist on using
  Unicode chars when ASCII chars will suffice. For example,
  consider "scare quotes" -- are they really so pedantic
  that the leading quote must "lean to the left" and the
  trailing quote must "lean to the right"? Not to mention
  using the moronic Unicode spaces, etc..
  
  Besides, i've always felt that Unicode was nothing more
  than a monkey patch to repair the selfish anti-patterns
  coded into each regional language source. The insistence
  of some natural languages on using diacritics, as if their
  users are so stupid, that they cannot remember how to
  pronounce the words, and therefore must encode a tutorial
  into the language glpyhs themselves! At best it's fluff,
  and at worst it's an insult to both the users of said
  language, and the general intelligence of *ALL* humans.
  
  We humans have a tendency to inject chaos into our
  systems, and the worst part is, the chaos is not
  accidental, no, it's quite purposeful! The reasons we do
  these things are varied, but mostly it's just pure
  selfishness.
  
  Some will claim that we should promote "language
  diversity", and if we're talking about programming
  languages, then i wholeheartedly agree . But if we're
  talking about natural languages, then i strongly disagree.
  I ask: how much productivity has been lost by needing to
  translate one selfish natural encoding into another? Or
  how much time has been wasted submitting to the "gods" of
  internalization and localization? I would argue far too
  much.
  
  But natural language is not the system riddled with
  overlaps,no,  programming languages are guilty of the sin
  as well. What many people don't understand about my
  argument, is that, i don't want to create "one language to
  rule all languages", no, that would only stifle
  innovation. However, what we should do, is standardized
  all the "overlapping bits" so that we can focus our energy
  on the "experimental bits". Instead, we created a culture
  of "wheel re-inventors".
  
  (Of course, whilst re-inventing the wheel will always be a
  indispensable tool of academic exercise, it should *NEVER*
  be tolerated in our formal encoding systems)
  
  I'll admit I tend to be highly pragmatic, and some have
  even called me a "minimalist", but i consider neither of
  these descriptions to be insulting. In fact, i wear them
  as a badge of honor. In the end: i want to get the job
  done, as quickly and correctly as possible, without being
  distracted by the superfluous complexities of "encoded
  selfishness".
  
  We humans are such an inefficient species, and the only
  reason we've managed to survive on this *ROCK* as long as
  we have, is simply do to the luck of "drawing the longest
  intelligent straw". But you see, all quantities are
  relative, and we would be foolish to assume that the "gold
  metal of intelligence" that we wear so proudly around our
  neck, here on earth, would have even a *MODICUM* of
  significance in the vast expanse of this universe.
  
  And even though our intelligence can be applied to many
  diverse problems, we have a tendency to become mired in
  emotional tar-pits. Tar pits that did not exist until *WE*
  created them! Tar pits that serve no function but to
  retrograde the magnitude of our intelligence evolution
  vector! What's the point the possessing the most powerful
  tool in the known universe (the human brain), if we cannot
  even escape the spectres of our own "mind spooks"?
  
  I can easily imagine, that if an advanced intelligence
  were to observe the behavior and evolutionary path of
  humans, they would become disgusted with the poor
  administration of our collective intelligence.
  generations; centuries; even millennia, have come and
  gone, but yet we still don't "GET IT"!   
  
  Our history can succinctly be described as: "jumping from
  one shampoo-rinse-repeat cycle" to the next, all the
  while, patting ourselves on the back as if we've achieved
  "something great". Heck, they may even decide that we should
  be "put out of our misery" like a horse with a broken leg.
  
  So congratulations "earth man"! You've won the
  "participation trophy". Now go home, place it on your
  mantle, and bore your grand-kids to death with all the
  wonderful stories of your "glory days"! 

  And after they are dead and gone, you can bask in the
  beams of light glimmering from the fake gold-plating on
  your cheap little plastic trinket, as you wait for *DEATH*
  to come...
[/tangent]

In the event that i change my mind about Unicode, and/or for
the sake of others, who may want to know, please provide a
list of languages that *YOU* think handle Unicode better than
Python, starting with the best first. Thanks.

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#105143

Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> In the event that i change my mind about Unicode, and/or for
> the sake of others, who may want to know, please provide a
> list of languages that *YOU* think handle Unicode better than
> Python, starting with the best first. Thanks.
> 
How about a list of languages that Unicode handles better than ASCII?
Like almost every language *except* English.

-- 
Chris Green
·

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#105145

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 7:31 AM,  <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> In the event that i change my mind about Unicode, and/or for
>> the sake of others, who may want to know, please provide a
>> list of languages that *YOU* think handle Unicode better than
>> Python, starting with the best first. Thanks.
>>
> How about a list of languages that Unicode handles better than ASCII?
> Like almost every language *except* English.

Like every language *including* English. You can pretend that ASCII is
enough, but you do lose some information.

ChrisA

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#105149

On 2016-03-17, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 7:31 AM,  <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
>> Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> In the event that i change my mind about Unicode, and/or for
>>> the sake of others, who may want to know, please provide a
>>> list of languages that *YOU* think handle Unicode better than
>>> Python, starting with the best first. Thanks.
>>>
>> How about a list of languages that Unicode handles better than ASCII?
>> Like almost every language *except* English.
>
> Like every language *including* English. You can pretend that ASCII is
> enough, but you do lose some information.

And I suppose you youngsters really think you need both upper and
lower case and all those fancy curly braces, pipes, backslashes
asterisks, and semi-colons and whatnot.  [Yes, I've written software
that had to deal with baudot because that's all the paper tape reader
could handle.]

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I'm RELIGIOUS!!
                                  at               I love a man with
                              gmail.com            a HAIRPIECE!!  Equip me
                                                   with MISSILES!!

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#105151

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 8:08 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 2016-03-17, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 7:31 AM,  <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
>>> Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In the event that i change my mind about Unicode, and/or for
>>>> the sake of others, who may want to know, please provide a
>>>> list of languages that *YOU* think handle Unicode better than
>>>> Python, starting with the best first. Thanks.
>>>>
>>> How about a list of languages that Unicode handles better than ASCII?
>>> Like almost every language *except* English.
>>
>> Like every language *including* English. You can pretend that ASCII is
>> enough, but you do lose some information.
>
> And I suppose you youngsters really think you need both upper and
> lower case and all those fancy curly braces, pipes, backslashes
> asterisks, and semi-colons and whatnot.  [Yes, I've written software
> that had to deal with baudot because that's all the paper tape reader
> could handle.]

You can pretend that only 1 and 0 are enough. Good luck making THAT work.

ChrisA

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#105156

Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes:
> You can pretend that only 1 and 0 are enough. Good luck making THAT work.

YOU had ONES???  Back in the day, my folks had to do everything with
just zeros.

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#105162

On 17/03/2016 21:13, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
> You can pretend that only 1 and 0 are enough. Good luck making THAT work.
>
> ChrisA
>

The sales and marketing "thing", for lack of a better expression, that 
was used in the UK by Racal Telecommunications during the 1990s.  Well 
I'm telling a fib, IIRC it was 0 1.  Sales and marketing did not get the 
joke about it being a "two bit company".

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#105168

Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 2016-03-17, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 7:31 AM,  <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> >> Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> In the event that i change my mind about Unicode, and/or for
> >>> the sake of others, who may want to know, please provide a
> >>> list of languages that *YOU* think handle Unicode better than
> >>> Python, starting with the best first. Thanks.
> >>>
> >> How about a list of languages that Unicode handles better than ASCII?
> >> Like almost every language *except* English.
> >
> > Like every language *including* English. You can pretend that ASCII is
> > enough, but you do lose some information.
> 
> And I suppose you youngsters really think you need both upper and
> lower case and all those fancy curly braces, pipes, backslashes
> asterisks, and semi-colons and whatnot.  [Yes, I've written software
> that had to deal with baudot because that's all the paper tape reader
> could handle.]
> 
I'm hardly a youngster, I'm nearly 70 and started programming in the
early 1970s.  :-)

-- 
Chris Green
·

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#105150

Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>:

> Like every language *including* English. You can pretend that ASCII is
> enough, but you do lose some information.

Hold it, I'll quickly update my résumé before we resume the
conversation. What does this exposé expose? At least it gives a coup de
grâce to ASCII with grace.


Marko

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#105153

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 8:11 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>:
>
>> Like every language *including* English. You can pretend that ASCII is
>> enough, but you do lose some information.
>
> Hold it, I'll quickly update my résumé before we resume the
> conversation. What does this exposé expose? At least it gives a coup de
> grâce to ASCII with grace.

I'm so glad I have your coöperation in this.

ChrisA

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#105154

On 17/03/2016 21:11, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>:
>
>> Like every language *including* English. You can pretend that ASCII is
>> enough, but you do lose some information.
>
> Hold it, I'll quickly update my résumé before we resume the
> conversation. What does this exposé expose? At least it gives a coup de
> grâce to ASCII with grace.

'ANSI' (Windows code page 1252), will do most of what ASCII doesn't, as 
far as western Europe (and the US, Canada, Australia and probably the 
rest of the Americas) is concerned. Including euro and pound (€,£) 
currency symbols.

ANSI could have been equivalent to the first 256 Unicode code points, 
rather than just 128, if Unicode hadn't squandered codes 128 to 159 on 
even more control codes, when it's difficult to see a use for most of 
the 32 that ASCII already reserves.


-- 
Bartc

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#105164

On 17/03/2016 21:26, BartC wrote:
> On 17/03/2016 21:11, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Like every language *including* English. You can pretend that ASCII is
>>> enough, but you do lose some information.
>>
>> Hold it, I'll quickly update my résumé before we resume the
>> conversation. What does this exposé expose? At least it gives a coup de
>> grâce to ASCII with grace.
>
> 'ANSI' (Windows code page 1252), will do most of what ASCII doesn't, as
> far as western Europe (and the US, Canada, Australia and probably the
> rest of the Americas) is concerned. Including euro and pound (€,£)
> currency symbols.
>
> ANSI could have been equivalent to the first 256 Unicode code points,
> rather than just 128, if Unicode hadn't squandered codes 128 to 159 on
> even more control codes, when it's difficult to see a use for most of
> the 32 that ASCII already reserves.
>

Why would you care?  I swear blind that you stated a few days back that 
you, and hence your newly published language, couldn't care about 
unicode.  Have I got it wrong?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#105170

On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 8:26 AM, BartC <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 17/03/2016 21:11, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>
>> Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> Like every language *including* English. You can pretend that ASCII is
>>> enough, but you do lose some information.
>>
>>
>> Hold it, I'll quickly update my résumé before we resume the
>> conversation. What does this exposé expose? At least it gives a coup de
>> grâce to ASCII with grace.
>
>
> 'ANSI' (Windows code page 1252), will do most of what ASCII doesn't, as far
> as western Europe (and the US, Canada, Australia and probably the rest of
> the Americas) is concerned. Including euro and pound (€,£) currency symbols.
>
> ANSI could have been equivalent to the first 256 Unicode code points, rather
> than just 128, if Unicode hadn't squandered codes 128 to 159 on even more
> control codes, when it's difficult to see a use for most of the 32 that
> ASCII already reserves.

The trouble is twofold:

1) Code page 1252 still can't do everything. You can handle most of
western Europe but that's all. No Cyrillic or Greek text, and
definitely no RTL text (Arabic or Hebrew).

2) So the solution is... more codepages, right? NO. A thousand times
no. That just means that no two computers can agree on what character
0xA2 represents.

3) You still can't fit Chinese text into eight bits of space, no
matter how hard you try. (Among our problems are such diverse elements
as...)

So, no. No solution there. And you're just making even more assumptions.

ChrisA

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#105158

On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 07:42:30 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 7:31 AM,  <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
>> Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> In the event that i change my mind about Unicode, and/or for the sake
>>> of others, who may want to know, please provide a list of languages
>>> that *YOU* think handle Unicode better than Python, starting with the
>>> best first. Thanks.
>>>
>> How about a list of languages that Unicode handles better than ASCII?
>> Like almost every language *except* English.
> 
> Like every language *including* English. You can pretend that ASCII is
> enough, but you do lose some information.
> 
> ChrisA

as we all seam to have bitten the troll's thread
"how to waste computer memory"
give it to an delusion-ed incompetent to play with

it is now 2016 not 1978, Memory is cheap. plentifully and fast there is 
more than enough to go arround



-- 
May your camel be as swift as the wind.

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#105159

On Thu, 17 Mar 2016 21:37:02 +0000, alister wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 07:42:30 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 7:31 AM,  <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
>>> Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> In the event that i change my mind about Unicode, and/or for the sake
>>>> of others, who may want to know, please provide a list of languages
>>>> that *YOU* think handle Unicode better than Python, starting with the
>>>> best first. Thanks.
>>>>
>>> How about a list of languages that Unicode handles better than ASCII?
>>> Like almost every language *except* English.
>> 
>> Like every language *including* English. You can pretend that ASCII is
>> enough, but you do lose some information.
>> 
>> ChrisA
> 
> as we all seam to have bitten the troll's thread "how to waste computer
> memory"
> give it to an delusion-ed incompetent to play with
> 
> it is now 2016 not 1978, Memory is cheap. plentifully and fast there is
> more than enough to go arround

what is should had added is that there are many methods to reduce memory 
usage but they mostly increase processor load & slow execution
when there is plenty of memory it makes more sense to code for speed even 
if this uses more memory

how are you measuring efficiency speed , memory usage or a combination of 
both?

Define waste if the memory used gets the task completed faster is it 
wasted?



-- 
In 1869 the waffle iron was invented for people who had wrinkled waffles.

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#105172

On Thursday 17 March 2016 17:37:02 alister wrote:

> On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 07:42:30 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 7:31 AM,  <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> >> Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> In the event that i change my mind about Unicode, and/or for the
> >>> sake of others, who may want to know, please provide a list of
> >>> languages that *YOU* think handle Unicode better than Python,
> >>> starting with the best first. Thanks.
> >>
> >> How about a list of languages that Unicode handles better than
> >> ASCII? Like almost every language *except* English.
> >
> > Like every language *including* English. You can pretend that ASCII
> > is enough, but you do lose some information.
> >
> > ChrisA
>
> as we all seam to have bitten the troll's thread
> "how to waste computer memory"
> give it to an delusion-ed incompetent to play with
>
> it is now 2016 not 1978, Memory is cheap. plentifully and fast there
> is more than enough to go arround
>
While you all are trying to play can you top this, I just have to comment 
that in 1978 I paid $400 for a kit to put 4k of static ram in a Cosmac 
Super Elf.  And the code I wrote for it, looking up in the RCA 
programmers manual to get the hex value I then entered via the onboard 
monitor facility with its 6 digit led display, was still running in 1995 
at that tv station.

So the obvious question then is, will any of your python code still be 
running and doing its labor saving and dead on the video frame timing 
job several times daily, 17 years hence?

> --
> May your camel be as swift as the wind.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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#105173

On Thursday, March 17, 2016 at 7:52:26 PM UTC-5, Gene Heskett wrote:
> So the obvious question then is, will any of your python code still be 
> running and doing its labor saving and dead on the video frame timing 
> job several times daily, 17 years hence?

Well, let me put it this way folks: As much as like Python,
i must admit that it's staying power will be more aligned
with that of Brittney Spears and Justin Timberlake -- than
the Beatles or the Rolling Stones.

Actually, the range is correct, but the celebrities are
completely wrong!

Python is more like James Marshall Hendrix, Elvis Presley,
Janis Joplin, and Jim Morrison all wrapped-up into one!

"Alien forces" from another dimension, that showed up one
day, transformed rock-n-roll, and then disappeared before we
even knew what the heck happened.

In the not too distant future, there will be vast conspiracy
theories surrounding the demise of Python -- some will say
it was the mob, others the government.

There will be random public sightings, and kooks will claim 
to see the "image of Python" on burnt toast.

Perhaps someone, after attaching suction cups to a stuffed
snake, will enjoy the "commercial interstate success" that 
only Jim Davis knows...

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#105196

Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> wrote:
> On Thursday 17 March 2016 17:37:02 alister wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 07:42:30 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 7:31 AM,  <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> > >> Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >>> In the event that i change my mind about Unicode, and/or for the
> > >>> sake of others, who may want to know, please provide a list of
> > >>> languages that *YOU* think handle Unicode better than Python,
> > >>> starting with the best first. Thanks.
> > >>
> > >> How about a list of languages that Unicode handles better than
> > >> ASCII? Like almost every language *except* English.
> > >
> > > Like every language *including* English. You can pretend that ASCII
> > > is enough, but you do lose some information.
> > >
> > > ChrisA
> >
> > as we all seam to have bitten the troll's thread
> > "how to waste computer memory"
> > give it to an delusion-ed incompetent to play with
> >
> > it is now 2016 not 1978, Memory is cheap. plentifully and fast there
> > is more than enough to go arround
> >
> While you all are trying to play can you top this, I just have to comment 
> that in 1978 I paid $400 for a kit to put 4k of static ram in a Cosmac 
> Super Elf.  And the code I wrote for it, looking up in the RCA 
> programmers manual to get the hex value I then entered via the onboard 
> monitor facility with its 6 digit led display, was still running in 1995 
> at that tv station.
> 
> So the obvious question then is, will any of your python code still be 
> running and doing its labor saving and dead on the video frame timing 
> job several times daily, 17 years hence?
> 
I wrote a Cosmac assembler for the Cosmac.  :-)

However I doubt it's still being used, a year or two after I wrote it
we migrated to a Tektronix development system that ran Unix (wow!).

-- 
Chris Green
·

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#105215

On Friday 18 March 2016 06:44:05 cl@isbd.net wrote:

> Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> wrote:
> > On Thursday 17 March 2016 17:37:02 alister wrote:
> > > On Fri, 18 Mar 2016 07:42:30 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > > > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 7:31 AM,  <cl@isbd.net> wrote:
> > > >> Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > >>> In the event that i change my mind about Unicode, and/or for
> > > >>> the sake of others, who may want to know, please provide a
> > > >>> list of languages that *YOU* think handle Unicode better than
> > > >>> Python, starting with the best first. Thanks.
> > > >>
> > > >> How about a list of languages that Unicode handles better than
> > > >> ASCII? Like almost every language *except* English.
> > > >
> > > > Like every language *including* English. You can pretend that
> > > > ASCII is enough, but you do lose some information.
> > > >
> > > > ChrisA
> > >
> > > as we all seam to have bitten the troll's thread
> > > "how to waste computer memory"
> > > give it to an delusion-ed incompetent to play with
> > >
> > > it is now 2016 not 1978, Memory is cheap. plentifully and fast
> > > there is more than enough to go arround
> >
> > While you all are trying to play can you top this, I just have to
> > comment that in 1978 I paid $400 for a kit to put 4k of static ram
> > in a Cosmac Super Elf.  And the code I wrote for it, looking up in
> > the RCA programmers manual to get the hex value I then entered via
> > the onboard monitor facility with its 6 digit led display, was still
> > running in 1995 at that tv station.
> >
> > So the obvious question then is, will any of your python code still
> > be running and doing its labor saving and dead on the video frame
> > timing job several times daily, 17 years hence?
>
> I wrote a Cosmac assembler for the Cosmac.  :-)
>
Chuckle. I thought about that, but by the time I was knowlegable enough 
to attempt that, I also realized that it would take more memory than the 
kit had.  And since by then it was beginning to do the job, I wasn't 
about to ditch what I already had. I just pulled a paper copy of that 
code odd the shelf where its been stashed for 26 years, used $8FF bytes 
of that $1000 that cost us $400 at the time.  The I/O was done, and the 
tape machines were doing as they were told, but I had used a packaged 
chip for the video it needed, but that turn out to be so small on a 5" 
B&W monitor screen as to be worthless.  So I designed and coded up a 
video that gave them an academy countdown timer 103 line tall on a 262.5 
line NTSC screen, which was all the video it needed. That displayed 
timer was, taken over a calculated year, had considerable less drift 
from wall clock time than any skip frame time code std then extant, and 
I wrote that too, but it was slaved to house synch since the machines 
were too.  What it did was let the operator run the machine in slow 
search mode to find the first frame of a commercial to be switched to 
air, then the operator punched one of 6 buttons to tell the cosmac how 
long the commercial was, another button to tell it to put a new academy 
leader using its video on it, and a go button.  It then backed the 
machine up 12 seconds from the position it was parked at for 1st frame, 
the rolled it fwd at norml speed, commanded the video to go into insert 
mode at 1st frame -10.0 seconds so it recorded the countdown from 9.9 to 
2.0 seconds, triggering an audio tone to be inserted on channel 2 of the 
tape decks audio which was used by an automatic station break machine. 
At 2.0 s econds the insert was turned off so the last frame seen was 1 
field of 1.9.  Then it tracked the time and inserted the audio tone 
again at 24.9 seconds if it was a "30" second commercial.  This 2nd tone 
told the automatic station break machine to roll the next commercial in 
the next machine if the current one wasn't the last in this break.  
Otherwise its video fell thru to the film chain which had an ID slide, 
so folks saw an ID at the end of the break for the accumulated tenths of 
a second gained by trimming each spot .1 seconds.

That video turned out to be pretty easy, I broke the line into 32 time 
slots, counted out the first 16, then enabled a counter that from a 
74LS150 sampled the output of a 74LS245 8 bit latch which was diode 
steered to the inputs of the 74150, so I had a left edge of the 
character about 3 u-secs wide, a bar from there to the center of the 
character, a 3 u-sec dot there, another bar to the right edge, and 
another 3 u-sec dot there.  That occupied 6 spots using the MSB nibble 
on the data in the latch, then some blank time and it started the LSB 
nibble of the data.  This was from line 100 to line 103, where a dma 
cycle was generated and the cosmac replaced the data with another byte 
for the next 47 lines, at line 50 another DMA byte was written to the 
latch for the center horizontal bar, at line 53 that was replaced by 
another byte for the next 47 line, and finally the last of 6 bytes DMA'd 
to the latch made the bottom bar of the character, and at line 103, the 
latch was cleared so the remainder of the frame the output was black.
At line 200, the bottom of the character, a 3 count wide center decimal 
point was generated. Some simple logic made that into useable video and 
it accomplished the task for the tech directors of being able to read it 
from across the control room when they were queing things up for a hand 
run break.

In those days, dubbing a 3/4" u-matic tape was a serious quality loss and 
by doing this to the tape the production dept handed us, improved the on 
air image considerably by getting rid of a copy generation loss cycle.  
It also tightened up the break timing to an accuracy consistency they 
had never experienced before at that smaller market station.

All this BTW, was while the Chief Engineer had a heart attack and took a 
good share of a year off to "recover", 2 weeks after I had walked in the 
door as the Assistent Chief engineer. I had just about figured out where 
all the light switches were.  So I suddenly was doing his job too. 
Fortunately I only got into trouble for helping the FCC get to the 
transmitter to inspect it when he came calling as it turned out to be 
their responsibility to get there, which they would have had to spend a 
kilobuck or so for helicopter time.  The tx was on Shasta Bally 
Mountain, and road access was so poor that we changed operators every 2 
weeks via helicopter.  So this stations need for remote controls because 
there was a limit to the hours in a day that the operator could be "on 
duty" caused the FCC to use us as a model when they wrote the remote 
controlling specs. To get there by road, you needed a snow cat or 
similar tracked vehicle, because the road at one point was thru a fine 
powdered rock about 10 feet deep and normal tires would sink in just 
like quicksand, for about 100 feet.  We'ed taken some rock and oil up to 
stiffen it up, and the forest service made us take it back out, cost us 
over 200k to satisfy the p&%cks.  I'd made the mistake of offering to 
take the field inspector up with our snow cat, mainly because I had 
never been there either.

> However I doubt it's still being used, a year or two after I wrote it
> we migrated to a Tektronix development system that ran Unix (wow!).

The only unix machine we were had at my last station was a AT&T 3b2, 
which ran so hot in its 24/7 job that I posted a fire extinguisher next 
to it.  Never had to us the extinguisher though.  That thing would cook 
the goodie out of all its electrolytics in about a year.  But we had a 
contract, so it wasn't up to me when it puked.  But I also had a copy of 
that unix stashed in my office, which was kewl, except it was locked 
down tight & the passwd wasn't available to me.  Once the tech needed to 
restore from those disks, so I trucked them out, only to discover they 
weren't readable, seems the night janitor had been playing with my 
office computer which was a trs80 color computer3, and had reformatted 
some of those disks in the coco3's drives, oops, we had a new janitor 
the next day.  But the tech had his own copy so was able to rescue it.
They had been reformatted to disk basic format, but I ran os9 on it.  If 
I saw a dumpster full of 3b2's today I wouldn't even put fingerprint on 
the cleanest looking one.

I didn't intend to write a weekly paper here, but it sure looks like it.  
Blame it on the old fart who likes to ramble on?

Cheers everybody, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

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