Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.python > #26472 > unrolled thread

On-topic: alternate Python implementations

Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.python

Contents

  On-topic: alternate Python implementations Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-04 06:15 +0000
    Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-04 16:34 +1000
      Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-04 10:54 +0000
        Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Stefan Krah <stefan-usenet@bytereef.org> - 2012-08-04 13:18 +0200
          Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-04 08:59 -0700
            Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-08-04 18:55 +0200
              Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-04 11:18 -0700
                Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-08-04 21:06 +0200
                  Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-04 13:43 -0700
                    Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-08-04 23:24 +0200
                Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-08-04 20:24 +0100
            Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-05 00:54 +0000
              Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-08-04 18:38 -0700
                Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-05 02:19 +0000
                  Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-08-06 22:57 -0700
                Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-08-05 07:37 +0200
              Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-04 23:09 -0400
        Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-08-04 13:32 +0200
    Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-08-04 08:40 +0200
      Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-04 07:49 +0000
        Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-08-04 11:10 +0200
          Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Thomas Rachel <nutznetz-0c1b6768-bfa9-48d5-a470-7603bd3aa915@spamschutz.glglgl.de> - 2012-08-04 14:51 +0200
            Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-08-04 15:53 +0200
              Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Ulrich Eckhardt <ulrich.eckhardt@dominolaser.com> - 2012-08-08 10:29 +0200
            Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-08-04 16:03 +0200
        Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-04 11:05 +0100
        Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-08-04 12:59 +0200
        Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-04 19:24 +0100
          Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Temia Eszteri <lamialily@cleverpun.com> - 2012-08-04 11:34 -0700
          Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-06 01:21 +1000
        Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Zero Piraeus <schesis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-04 14:42 -0400
        Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Zero Piraeus <schesis@gmail.com> - 2012-08-04 14:56 -0400
        Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-08-05 07:27 -0700
    Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2012-08-04 13:07 -0700
    Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations jwp <james.pye@gmail.com> - 2012-08-04 15:05 -0700
    Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Jürgen A. Erhard <jae+python@jaerhard.com> - 2012-08-05 01:25 +0200
    Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-08-05 07:46 +0200
    Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-08-05 09:51 +0200
    Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Jürgen A. Erhard <jae+python@jaerhard.com> - 2012-08-05 14:28 +0200
    Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-08-05 20:40 -0700
      Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-08-06 08:21 +0200
    Re: On-topic: alternate Python implementations Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-08-06 08:46 +0200
    Alternate Python extensions (was alternate Python implementations) rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-08-06 21:23 -0700
      Re: Alternate Python extensions (was alternate Python implementations) Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-08-07 07:09 +0200

Page 2 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3  Next page →

#26478

Steven D'Aprano, 04.08.2012 09:49:
> On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 08:40:16 +0200, Stefan Behnel wrote:
>> And not to forget Cython, which is the only static Python compiler that
>> is widely used. Compiles and optimises Python to C code that uses the
>> CPython runtime and allows for easy manual optimisations to get C-like
>> performance out of it.
>>
>> http://cython.org/
> 
> Cython is great, but I question that it is a *Python* implementation. 
> That's not a criticism of Cython, but it is different from Python. Take 
> this example code from the tutorial:
> 
> from libc.math cimport sin
> 
> cdef double f(double x):
>     return sin(x*x)
> 
> If that's Python code, then I'm Ethel the Aardvark.

We never met in person, so I can't comment on the last part.

However, the above is Cython code and, yes, that's a different language.
Note that it uses a different file extension: ".pyx". Try putting the above
code into a .py file and compiling that. Cython will reject it and tell you
that "cimport" is not valid Python syntax.


> Cython is very Python-like, but there is no doubt in my mind that it is a 
> superset of Python and therefore a different language.

As long as you don't use any features of the Cython language, it's plain
Python. That makes it a Python compiler in my eyes. The fact that you can
easily use C features to optimise your code (also in Python syntax, BTW)
doesn't impact that.

You mentioned a couple of other implementations and I'm sure they have
features (and bugs) that CPython doesn't have. Interaction with Lisp code
in CLPython, for example. I don't think additional features or language
implementation bugs make a Python implementation non-Python per se.

Also note that most of the less widely known "alternative Python
implementations" do not even publish their results of running the CPython
test suite, so how do you actually know they can run Python code?

Stefan

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26484

Am 04.08.2012 11:10 schrieb Stefan Behnel:

> As long as you don't use any features of the Cython language, it's plain
> Python. That makes it a Python compiler in my eyes.

Tell that the C++ guys. C++ is mainly a superset of C. But nevertheless, 
C and C++ are distinct languages and so are Python and Cython.


Thomas

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26485

Thomas Rachel, 04.08.2012 14:51:
> Am 04.08.2012 11:10 schrieb Stefan Behnel:
>> As long as you don't use any features of the Cython language, it's plain
>> Python. That makes it a Python compiler in my eyes.
> 
> Tell that the C++ guys. C++ is mainly a superset of C. But nevertheless, C
> and C++ are distinct languages and so are Python and Cython.

So, if a C++ compiler takes a .c file and compiles it with C language
semantics, it doesn't qualify as a C compiler? That implies a rather weird
definition of a C compiler, I'd say.

Stefan

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26753

Am 04.08.2012 15:53, schrieb Stefan Behnel:
> So, if a C++ compiler takes a .c file and compiles it with C language
> semantics, it doesn't qualify as a C compiler? That implies a rather weird
> definition of a C compiler, I'd say.

I'd say that even a brainfuck compiler compiling a .py file with C 
language semantics can shamelessly call itself a C compiler. :P

If a C++ compiler is given C code, it may or may not produce equivalent 
executables. In most non-trivial cases it will just barf on the valid C 
/ invalid C++ code and refuse to compile it. In few rare cases, it will 
compile the code and produce different behaviour at runtime (e.g. for 
"sizeof 'a'").


Uli

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26486

Stefan Behnel, 04.08.2012 15:53:
> Thomas Rachel, 04.08.2012 14:51:
>> Am 04.08.2012 11:10 schrieb Stefan Behnel:
>>> As long as you don't use any features of the Cython language, it's plain
>>> Python. That makes it a Python compiler in my eyes.
>>
>> Tell that the C++ guys. C++ is mainly a superset of C. But nevertheless, C
>> and C++ are distinct languages and so are Python and Cython.
> 
> So, if a C++ compiler takes a .c file and compiles it with C language
> semantics, it doesn't qualify as a C compiler? That implies a rather weird
> definition of a C compiler, I'd say.

Ah, sorry. Got it. You were again talking about Cython the language. Sure,
Cython the language is different from Python the language. Cython the
compiler can compile both.

Stefan

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26479

On 04/08/2012 08:49, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 08:40:16 +0200, Stefan Behnel wrote:
>
>> And not to forget Cython, which is the only static Python compiler that
>> is widely used. Compiles and optimises Python to C code that uses the
>> CPython runtime and allows for easy manual optimisations to get C-like
>> performance out of it.
>>
>> http://cython.org/
>
> Cython is great, but I question that it is a *Python* implementation.
> That's not a criticism of Cython, but it is different from Python. Take
> this example code from the tutorial:
>
> from libc.math cimport sin
>
> cdef double f(double x):
>      return sin(x*x)
>
> If that's Python code, then I'm Ethel the Aardvark.
>
> Cython is very Python-like, but there is no doubt in my mind that it is a
> superset of Python and therefore a different language.
>
>

I agree so it's off topic and can't be discussed here.  Isn't that 
right, Stefan?

-- 
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26481

Mark Lawrence, 04.08.2012 12:05:
> I agree so it's off topic and can't be discussed here.  Isn't that right,
> Stefan?

Hmm, in case you are referring to a recent friendly and diplomatic request
of mine regarding a couple of people who were burdening a public high
volume mailing list with a purely private back-and-forth chat about having
beer and getting drunk - then, no, I don't think the discussion in this
thread qualifies as yet another example for that so far.

Stefan

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26495

On 04/08/2012 11:59, Stefan Behnel wrote:
> Mark Lawrence, 04.08.2012 12:05:
>> I agree so it's off topic and can't be discussed here.  Isn't that right,
>> Stefan?
>
> Hmm, in case you are referring to a recent friendly and diplomatic request
> of mine regarding a couple of people who were burdening a public high
> volume mailing list with a purely private back-and-forth chat about having
> beer and getting drunk - then, no, I don't think the discussion in this
> thread qualifies as yet another example for that so far.
>
> Stefan
>
>

With arrogance like that German by any chance?

-- 
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26496

On Sat, 04 Aug 2012 19:24:12 +0100, Mark Lawrence
<breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>On 04/08/2012 11:59, Stefan Behnel wrote:
>> Mark Lawrence, 04.08.2012 12:05:
>>> I agree so it's off topic and can't be discussed here.  Isn't that right,
>>> Stefan?
>>
>> Hmm, in case you are referring to a recent friendly and diplomatic request
>> of mine regarding a couple of people who were burdening a public high
>> volume mailing list with a purely private back-and-forth chat about having
>> beer and getting drunk - then, no, I don't think the discussion in this
>> thread qualifies as yet another example for that so far.
>>
>> Stefan
>>
>>
>
>With arrogance like that German by any chance?

Hey now, cool it with the passive-aggression. We're here to discuss
code, right? If you want to fight it out, you can gladly do it by
e-mail.

~Temia
-- 
Invective! Verb your expletive nouns!

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26535

Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> writes:

> With arrogance like that German by any chance?

Please keep derogatory national stereotypes off this forum and out of
our community. They are counter to our goals of diversity
<URL:http://www.python.org/community/diversity/>; you don't have to
subscribe to that, but if not then you thereby exclude yourself.

-- 
 \       “You can stand tall without standing on someone. You can be a |
  `\         victor without having victims.” —Harriet Woods, 1927–2007 |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26497

:

On 4 August 2012 14:24, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> With arrogance like that German by any chance?

I didn't give a monkeys about the beer conversation personally, but
can we leave the national stereotypes out of it?

 -[]z.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26498

:

On 4 August 2012 14:50, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> No.  Next question?

*plonk*

 -[]z.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26534

Mark Lawrence wrote:
> With arrogance like that German by any chance?

Comments like that are not appropriate on this list.  Please don't make 
them.

~Ethan~

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26503

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>
>Most people are aware, if only vaguely, of the big Four Python 
>implementations:
>
>CPython, or just Python, the reference implementation written in C.
>IronPython, written in .NET.

Technicality:  .NET is not a language, it is a run-time framework.
IronPython is written in C#.  It generates code that runs in the .NET
Framework.
-- 
Tim Roberts, timr@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26511

On Friday, August 3, 2012 11:15:20 PM UTC-7, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> WPython - another optimizing version of Python with wordcodes instead of 
> bytecodes.
> 
> http://code.google.com/p/wpython/

I remember reading about this a while ago. I thought this was eventually going to be committed to CPython... =\

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26512

On Sat, Aug 04, 2012 at 08:40:16AM +0200, Stefan Behnel wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano, 04.08.2012 08:15:
> > Most people are aware, if only vaguely, of the big Four Python 
> > implementations:
> > 
> 
> And not to forget Cython, which is the only static Python compiler that is
> widely used. Compiles and optimises Python to C code that uses the CPython
> runtime and allows for easy manual optimisations to get C-like performance
> out of it.

Cython is certainly *not* a Python *implementation*, since it always
uses the CPython runtime (and compiling Cython C files requires
Python.h).

None of the other implementations require Python for actually
compiling or running Python source.

Oh, yes, you can create a stand-alone... wait, a "stand-alone" app.
By embedding the Python runtime (dynamic linking with libpythonX.Y...
maybe static too?  Didn't test, because it's irrelevant for making the
point).

Grits, J

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26526

Jürgen A. Erhard, 05.08.2012 01:25:
> On Sat, Aug 04, 2012 at 08:40:16AM +0200, Stefan Behnel wrote:
>> Steven D'Aprano, 04.08.2012 08:15:
>>> Most people are aware, if only vaguely, of the big Four Python 
>>> implementations:
>>
>> And not to forget Cython, which is the only static Python compiler that is
>> widely used. Compiles and optimises Python to C code that uses the CPython
>> runtime and allows for easy manual optimisations to get C-like performance
>> out of it.
> 
> Cython is certainly *not* a Python *implementation*, since it always
> uses the CPython runtime (and compiling Cython C files requires
> Python.h).

Yes, it avoids an unnecessary duplication of effort as well as a
substantial loss of compatibility that all non-CPython based
implementations suffer from.

You'd be surprised to see how much of Python we implement, though,
including some of the builtins. You might want to revise your opinion once
you start digging into it. It's always easy to disagree at the surface.


> None of the other implementations require Python for actually
> compiling or running Python source.

Nuitka was on the list as well.


> Oh, yes, you can create a stand-alone... wait, a "stand-alone" app.
> By embedding the Python runtime (dynamic linking with libpythonX.Y...
> maybe static too?

Sure, that works.

Stefan

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26528

Stefan Behnel, 05.08.2012 07:46:
> Jürgen A. Erhard, 05.08.2012 01:25:
>> None of the other implementations require Python for actually
>> compiling or running Python source.
> 
> Nuitka was on the list as well.

Oh, and Stackless was also on Steven's list, as well as WPython. That means
that 50% of the "other implementations" that Steven presented are not
"implementations" according to your apparent definition.

BTW, what is you definition?

Stefan

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26530

On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 07:46:59AM +0200, Stefan Behnel wrote:
> Jürgen A. Erhard, 05.08.2012 01:25:
> > On Sat, Aug 04, 2012 at 08:40:16AM +0200, Stefan Behnel wrote:
> >> Steven D'Aprano, 04.08.2012 08:15:
> >>> Most people are aware, if only vaguely, of the big Four Python 
> >>> implementations:
> >>
> >> And not to forget Cython, which is the only static Python compiler that is
> >> widely used. Compiles and optimises Python to C code that uses the CPython
> >> runtime and allows for easy manual optimisations to get C-like performance
> >> out of it.
> > 
> > Cython is certainly *not* a Python *implementation*, since it always
> > uses the CPython runtime (and compiling Cython C files requires
> > Python.h).
> 
> Yes, it avoids an unnecessary duplication of effort as well as a
> substantial loss of compatibility that all non-CPython based
> implementations suffer from.

But it's not an Python *implementation*, "just" an extension.

Mind you, this is not intended as a slight of Cython as such.  I
really like it, though I haven't had need for it yet, but I sure
prefer it to writing extensions in pure C. *brrrr*

> > None of the other implementations require Python for actually
> > compiling or running Python source.
> 
> Nuitka was on the list as well.

True, which I realized only after my missive.  But doesn't change
much, only that the list is wrong.

> > Oh, yes, you can create a stand-alone... wait, a "stand-alone" app.
> > By embedding the Python runtime (dynamic linking with libpythonX.Y...
> > maybe static too?
> 
> Sure, that works.

My definition, to also answer your following post, is "does not rely
on any executable part of the CPython source (which includes .c files
and executable code in header files if any, but of course can exclude
the stdlib)".  Not sure that's precise enough, but... if it can't
run/work on a system that has no shred of CPython installed, it's not
an alternative *implementation*.  The big three don't need CPython
(except PyPy for building, and even it can use a precompile PyPy I think).

Grits, J

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#26607

On Aug 4, 4:15 pm, Steven D'Aprano <steve
+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote:
> But the Python ecosystem is a lot bigger than just those four. Here are
> just a few other implementations that you might be interested in:

There's also HotPy:

http://code.google.com/p/hotpy/
http://www.hotpy.org/

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

Page 2 of 3 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | comp.lang.python

csiph-web