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Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python

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  Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python bob gailer <bgailer@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 15:35 -0500
    Re: Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-13 23:48 +0000
      Re: Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-11-14 10:47 +1000
        Re: Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-14 01:04 +0000
      Re: Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-11-13 20:14 -0500
      Re: Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-11-14 11:50 +1100
      Re: Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-14 09:33 +0100
    Re: Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python Chuck Quast <quastdog@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 16:10 -0800
    Re: Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 16:41 -0800
      Re: Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-14 11:50 +1100
    Re: Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python Nobody <nobody@nowhere.com> - 2013-11-14 16:13 +0000
    Re: Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python Peter Pearson <ppearson@nowhere.invalid> - 2013-11-14 21:26 +0000

#59344 — Most discussion on comp.lang.python is about developing with Python

I joined a week or so ago.

The subject line was copied from the description of comp.lang.python aka 
python-list@python.org.

I am very disappointed to see so much energy and bandwidth going to 
conversations that bash individuals.

Is there a moderator for this list?

Is there some other place for discussions that are completely OT and 
also full of flames?

Or would you be willing to stop the bashing? I don't see that it helps 
anyone, and could be very offputting to other newbies.

I hope and pray that there will be a few simple answers. The last thing 
I want is to start another flame war.

Thanks for hearing me.

-- 
Bob Gailer
919-636-4239
Chapel Hill NC

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#59358

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 15:35:56 -0500, bob gailer wrote:

> Is there a moderator for this list?

Sadly no.

 
> Is there some other place for discussions that are completely OT and
> also full of flames?

Yes, there is private email. Unfortunately private email doesn't give the 
culprits the audience that they desire.

> Or would you be willing to stop the bashing? I don't see that it helps
> anyone, and could be very offputting to other newbies.

That's what I have been saying for a long time. I believe that whatever 
negative effect Nikos the help-vampire is having, it is long ago 
overwhelmed by the negative of the anti-Nikos vigilantes.

Fortunately, Nikos appears to pay absolutely no attention to any thread 
which isn't about him. So if you avoid threads started by him, you'll 
miss the worst of it.

As a community, it is difficult to balance the conflicting needs here. If 
we ignore Nikos completely, we appear unfriendly and indifferent to those 
asking for help. If we answer his questions, we encourage him to post. It 
is hard to find the right balance, if there even is a right balance, and 
people can have differing ideas of what that right balance is.

But it is clear from the last few months that abusive, aggressive posts 
don't help anyone -- they don't set a good tone for the group, they put 
off newcomers, and they do absolutely nothing to discourage Nikos. Please 
consider this a request to the community, ignore Nikos if you like, 
answer his questions if you must, but please keep the abusive posts off-
list. They aren't helping.



-- 
Steven

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#59368

On 14/11/2013 9:48 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> I believe that whatever
> negative effect Nikos the help-vampire is having, it is long ago
> overwhelmed by the negative of the anti-Nikos vigilantes.

I don't know, the anti-Nikos-vigilante vigilantes are beginning to give 
them a run for their money, especially when their criticisms are just as 
applicable to their own behaviour.

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#59376

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 10:47:35 +1000, alex23 wrote:

> On 14/11/2013 9:48 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> I believe that whatever
>> negative effect Nikos the help-vampire is having, it is long ago
>> overwhelmed by the negative of the anti-Nikos vigilantes.
> 
> I don't know, the anti-Nikos-vigilante vigilantes are beginning to give
> them a run for their money, especially when their criticisms are just as
> applicable to their own behaviour.

Right, because shouting abuse at somebody is completely morally 
equivalent to not shouting abuse at somebody. I'll try to keep that in 
mind for the future.


-- 
Steven

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#59382

On 11/13/2013 6:48 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 15:35:56 -0500, bob gailer wrote:

>> Or would you be willing to stop the bashing? I don't see that it helps
>> anyone, and could be very offputting to other newbies.
>
> That's what I have been saying for a long time. I believe that whatever
> negative effect Nikos the help-vampire is having, it is long ago
> overwhelmed by the negative of the anti-Nikos vigilantes.

I agree and privately asked one such vigilante to desist.

> Fortunately, Nikos appears to pay absolutely no attention to any thread
> which isn't about him. So if you avoid threads started by him, you'll
> miss the worst of it.

Thunderbird now make this easy with R click, Ignore thread. I do this 
with non-Python threads and eventually with all that continue too long. 
So I have no idea how many Nikos threads are currently active other than 
the one I have not ignored yet. Sometimes ignorance *is* bliss ;-).

The last straw for me was a day when half the posts were for various 
Nikos threads. And perhaps 2/3rds of those were *not* from Nikos. To me, 
this is way unbalanced.

> As a community, it is difficult to balance the conflicting needs here. If
> we ignore Nikos completely, we appear unfriendly and indifferent to those
> asking for help.

I think at this point that off-topic posts should get one and only one 
answer:
"This question is not about Python. Please take it somewhere else."
If you see that already posted, move on.

> If we answer his questions, we encourage him to post. It
> is hard to find the right balance, if there even is a right balance, and
> people can have differing ideas of what that right balance is.

I think that Python questions, like "How do I complile 3.4a4 on Centos", 
that might interest others, should get answer or two or three for the 
benefit of everyone. And then answers should stop unless one has more 
information to give. No more 'I already answered that'. Sensible people 
can see that the question was answered, so repeating the obvious adds 
nothing.

> But it is clear from the last few months that abusive, aggressive posts
> don't help anyone -- they don't set a good tone for the group, they put
> off newcomers, and they do absolutely nothing to discourage Nikos. Please
> consider this a request to the community, ignore Nikos if you like,
> answer his questions if you must, but please keep the abusive posts off-
> list. They aren't helping.

I agree and second the request. Thanks for posting this.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#59395

On 13Nov2013 23:48, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> As a community, it is difficult to balance the conflicting needs here. If 
> we ignore Nikos completely, we appear unfriendly and indifferent to those 
> asking for help. If we answer his questions, we encourage him to post. It 
> is hard to find the right balance, if there even is a right balance, and 
> people can have differing ideas of what that right balance is.

For myself, I try to:

  - reply to interesting questions if I can help

  - ignore the non-technical content (flames etc)
    just trim it and ignore it
    try to set a good example in the reply without berating the flamer

  - on repeated flamage, try "please don't flame; try to stay technical; etc"
    but always with some accompanying techincal response

  - eventually give up and ignore threads or subthreads involving the
    person hurting my brain

I think etiquette criticism that is a small aside in a technical
response, if not done frequently, should be useful; it is a bit of
push back without derailing the discussion. Etiquette criticism on
its own, if on-list, I think derails the discussion and leads more
readily to further bickering. And aggressive criticism is even more
damaging that criticism alone.

Trying not to feed the trolls,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au>

A Newbie: I was not asking the question to start any flames. [...] Nobody
    has to get to the low levels of argument and be rude to each other.
Paul Tsai <pault@hurricane.seas.ucla.edu>:
    Oh yes we do, grasshopper.  It's a requisite for rec.moto.  One must
    transcend the infinity of illussions before getting the real techno whiz
    answers to questions of such profundity as yours.
John Stafford <stafford@ultra1.Winona.MSUS.edu>:
    No, he's right. After reading r.m. for a couple of years, I feel capable
    of being rude to ANYONE at ANY level of argument. In fact the higher they
    come, the harder they fall.....

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#59417

Op 14-11-13 00:48, Steven D'Aprano schreef:
> On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 15:35:56 -0500, bob gailer wrote:
> 
>> Is there a moderator for this list?
> 
> Sadly no.
> 
>  
>> Is there some other place for discussions that are completely OT and
>> also full of flames?
> 
> Yes, there is private email. Unfortunately private email doesn't give the 
> culprits the audience that they desire.
> 
>> Or would you be willing to stop the bashing? I don't see that it helps
>> anyone, and could be very offputting to other newbies.
> 
> That's what I have been saying for a long time. I believe that whatever 
> negative effect Nikos the help-vampire is having, it is long ago 
> overwhelmed by the negative of the anti-Nikos vigilantes.

But the spoon feeders refuse to acknowledge their own role in this.

> Fortunately, Nikos appears to pay absolutely no attention to any thread 
> which isn't about him. So if you avoid threads started by him, you'll 
> miss the worst of it.
> 
> As a community, it is difficult to balance the conflicting needs here. If 
> we ignore Nikos completely, we appear unfriendly and indifferent to those 
> asking for help. If we answer his questions, we encourage him to post. It 
> is hard to find the right balance, if there even is a right balance, and 
> people can have differing ideas of what that right balance is.

This balance is less hard as you seem to think. Anyone who has been in
the care sector has probably been in contact with the difference between
helping someone and saving someone. The first is trying to empower
someone so that he can handle as many situations as posibible himself.
The second is that you make the problems of the other person your own
problems and you try to solve them for him.

The purpose is to help, not to save. And those that try to save
generally are not very popular because they effectively sabotage
the attempts to help and set the expectations of the client too
high.

> But it is clear from the last few months that abusive, aggressive posts 
> don't help anyone -- they don't set a good tone for the group, they put 
> off newcomers, and they do absolutely nothing to discourage Nikos. Please 
> consider this a request to the community, ignore Nikos if you like, 
> answer his questions if you must, but please keep the abusive posts off-
> list. They aren't helping.

If you care for the community and want to avoid frustrating others as
much as possible then don't spoon feed Nikos. It is equally clear from
the last few month they don't help anyone either. They frustrate a
significant number of members because it encourages Nikos in his
destructive behaviour. Continuing to spoon feed Nikos will only make
the frustration levels rise until they reach a level where someone
will feel the need to vent.

So if you can't resist wanting to help.

Don't answer or do his work for him. Give him the information he needs
to work it out himself, preferably refer him to the documentation.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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#59364

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 3:35:56 AM UTC+7, bob gailer wrote:
> I joined a week or so ago.
> 
> 
> 
> The subject line was copied from the description of comp.lang.python aka 
> 
> python-list@python.org.
> 
> 
> 
> I am very disappointed to see so much energy and bandwidth going to 
> 
> conversations that bash individuals.
> 
> 
> 
> Is there a moderator for this list?
> 
> 
> 
> Is there some other place for discussions that are completely OT and 
> 
> also full of flames?
> 
> 
> 
> Or would you be willing to stop the bashing? I don't see that it helps 
> 
> anyone, and could be very offputting to other newbies.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope and pray that there will be a few simple answers. The last thing 
> 
> I want is to start another flame war.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for hearing me.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Bob Gailer
> 
> 919-636-4239
> 
> Chapel Hill NC

I just changed my profile to turn off email updates from this list. Too many posts were in response to the blatant troll postings. If I never get another comp.lang.python post in my mailbox it will be too soon.

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#59366

Hello Bob,

I understand your concern but you need to realize there is
not much that can (or should) be done *IF* we want to live in
societies that are free from oppression.

The minute we start drawing lines in the sand and punishing
people for exercising their freedom of speech, is when we
start living under Fascism -- and trust me friend;  trolls,
spammers and flamers are nothing compared to overzealous
nanny police forcing other people to live by rules they
refuse to live by themselves. Is Bloomberg ringing a bell[*]

  WHERE DO WE DRAW THE LINE? 

You cannot create social rules in ANY society that do not
infringe upon the personal freedom of others. We ALL have a
right to express ourselves. 

  HOWEVER,

when we live in a free society we must accept that
some people will be annoying; some will be rude; some will
be friendly; some will be hostile; or any number of 
unpleasing emotional states.

Learning to "tune out" what we find offensive and "tune in"
what we find pleasing (or interesting) is part of being a
member of any free society.

 SOMETIMES, YOU JUST GOTTA PUT YOUR "BIG BOY" PANTS ON.

One aspect about online forums (unlike real life) is that
you can avoid people (or opinions) you find offensive simply
by choosing not to read their words.

But, at the end of the day, ask yourself: "What can a troll,
a flamer, or a spammer do to me anyway?" Answer is: only
that which you allow them to do. Then ask yourself: "What
could the gestapo[**] do to me?"

 "POWER CORRUPTS: ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY."

PS: Funny thing about threads requesting "group
moderation"... they have a tendency to digress into flame
wars -- ain't life a beach?

[*] That sanctimonious prick!
[**] Does "gestapo" qualify as evoking Godwins Law?

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#59369

On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
>  "POWER CORRUPTS: ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY."

http://xkcd.com/643/

ChrisA

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#59451

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 15:35:56 -0500, bob gailer wrote:

> I joined a week or so ago.
> 
> The subject line was copied from the description of comp.lang.python aka 
> python-list@python.org.
> 
> I am very disappointed to see so much energy and bandwidth going to 
> conversations that bash individuals.
> 
> Is there a moderator for this list?

"list"? As you have already noted, the mailing list is bi-directionally
gatewayed to a usenet group. The advantage of usenet is that anyone can
read or post without having to sign up. That's also its disadvantage.

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#59480

On Wed, 13 Nov 2013 15:35:56 -0500, bob gailer <bgailer@gmail.com> wrote:
> I joined a week or so ago.
>
> The subject line was copied from the description of comp.lang.python aka 
> python-list@python.org.
>
> I am very disappointed to see so much energy and bandwidth going to 
> conversations that bash individuals.

I'm sorry your initial impression is so negative.  This Usenet
news group, comp.lang.python, is the most civil and helpful
news group I've followed in my long career of Usenet reading.
Losing that would be sad.

Perhaps the appearance of the group changes according to one's method
of access.  I read comp.lang.python using the slrn news-reading tool,
which allows me to skip an entire thread with a single keystroke.  Maybe
that's what has kept me from noticing so many unpleasant posts.

-- 
To email me, substitute nowhere->spamcop, invalid->net.

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