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Groups > comp.lang.python > #31265 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2012-10-15 08:58 +1100 |
| Last post | 2012-10-16 20:00 -0700 |
| Articles | 8 on this page of 68 — 20 participants |
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Re: Aggressive language on python-list Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-10-15 08:58 +1100
Re: Aggressive language on python-list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-10-14 20:22 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-10-14 21:36 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-10-16 09:27 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-10-16 16:49 +0000
RE: Aggressive language on python-list "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-10-16 20:17 +0000
Re: Aggressive language on python-list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-10-16 14:12 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-10-16 14:10 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-10-17 02:45 +0000
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-10-17 02:50 +0000
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 23:01 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list "Kristen J. Webb" <kwebb@teradactyl.com> - 2012-10-16 21:47 -0600
Re: Aggressive language on python-list alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 21:25 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 21:43 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 23:15 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-10-17 00:25 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-10-17 06:24 +0000
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-10-17 18:36 +1100
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-17 09:40 +0100
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-10-17 14:29 +0000
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 01:35 +1100
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-10-17 15:33 +1100
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-10-17 01:15 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-10-17 14:32 +0000
Re: Aggressive language on python-list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-10-17 09:48 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 05:16 +1100
Re: Aggressive language on python-list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-10-17 12:20 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-10-17 12:53 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2012-10-17 21:28 +0100
Re: Aggressive language on python-list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-10-17 14:10 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-10-17 23:17 +0000
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-10-17 17:39 -0600
Re: Aggressive language on python-list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-10-17 17:24 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Zero Piraeus <schesis@gmail.com> - 2012-10-17 19:51 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-10-17 19:53 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-10-17 18:02 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-10-17 21:13 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 00:02 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-10-17 21:06 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 00:21 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-10-17 21:24 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 00:35 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 15:28 +1100
Re: Aggressive language on python-list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-10-17 21:36 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Zero Piraeus <schesis@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 01:17 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-10-17 23:19 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list David Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 02:27 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 00:30 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Zero Piraeus <schesis@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 03:07 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-10-18 05:43 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 00:37 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 00:05 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-10-17 21:11 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 00:26 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-10-17 21:31 -0700
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 00:57 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-10-18 05:29 +0000
Re: Aggressive language on python-list David Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 01:43 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 11:11 +0100
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 15:23 +1100
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 00:33 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 15:42 +1100
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Hguant <hguant@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 01:11 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Curt <curty@free.fr> - 2012-10-18 16:09 +0000
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Zero Piraeus <schesis@gmail.com> - 2012-10-17 20:02 -0400
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2012-10-18 01:44 +0100
Re: Aggressive language on python-list Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-10-18 01:55 +0100
Re: Aggressive language on python-list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-10-16 20:00 -0700
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| From | Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-18 00:33 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.2394.1350534834.27098.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #31565 |
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 12:23 AM, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 17, 2012 at 11:50 PM, wu wei <wuwei23@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Did you really forward a private email to a public mailing list without >>> permission? >>> >>> Are you really that fucking ignorant of the law? >> >> This is a public discussion. Maybe you just need to stand behind a >> loophole in the law, but the first amendment overrides that. > > Common misconception. The First Amendment to the United States > Constitution prohibits the *making of any law* that restricts certain > freedoms. It does not have ANYTHING to do with "I have first amendment > rights to say whatever I like". Your constitutional opinion, but not everyone's. And I quote: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or -->abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press<--; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." It is restrictions on Congress and the > state governments in the US of A. > > Even if python-list were purely US-based, it still wouldn't apply. > > Deliberately forwarding a private email without permission is a breach > of courtesy, more than of the law. How many emails end in hit 'reply all'? It may be possible to make a civil > case of the breach of privacy in some jurisdictions, but mainly it's > just a gross discourtesy. It wasn't stated that that was their intent. I though it was the regular hit 'reply', instead of hit 'reply all' (Assuming, that is, that the email wasn't > actually intended to be public. I've at times responded on-list to a > private email, but with a tag at the top explaining that.) > That I failed to do. To say please hit 'reply all' -- Best Regards, David Hutto CEO: http://www.hitwebdevelopment.com
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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-18 15:42 +1100 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.2397.1350535344.27098.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #31565 |
On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 12:23 AM, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote: >> Common misconception. The First Amendment to the United States >> Constitution prohibits the *making of any law* that restricts certain >> freedoms. It does not have ANYTHING to do with "I have first amendment >> rights to say whatever I like". > > Your constitutional opinion, but not everyone's. > > And I quote: > > "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, > or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or -->abridging the freedom > of speech, or of the press<--; or the right of the people peaceably to > assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." That's one entire sentence. "Congress shall make no law... abridging the freedom..." - it's ONLY preventing Congress's actions. The Constitution was subsequently applied by the Supreme Court to state governments as well, but it's still only restricting state and federal law-makers. ChrisA
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| From | Hguant <hguant@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-18 01:11 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.2399.1350537082.27098.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #31565 |
On 10/18/2012 12:42 AM, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Dwight Hutto<dwightdhutto@gmail.com> wrote: >> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 12:23 AM, Chris Angelico<rosuav@gmail.com> wrote: >>> Common misconception. The First Amendment to the United States >>> Constitution prohibits the *making of any law* that restricts certain >>> freedoms. It does not have ANYTHING to do with "I have first amendment >>> rights to say whatever I like". >> Your constitutional opinion, but not everyone's. >> >> And I quote: >> >> "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, >> or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or -->abridging the freedom >> of speech, or of the press<--; or the right of the people peaceably to >> assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." > That's one entire sentence. "Congress shall make no law... abridging > the freedom..." - it's ONLY preventing Congress's actions. The > Constitution was subsequently applied by the Supreme Court to state > governments as well, but it's still only restricting state and federal > law-makers. > > ChrisA My god people, can we just drop this and move on already? No one's opinions are going to be changed, and there's no magic bullet argument that will shut down someone you disagree with. Swallow your bile and carry on. Sorry to be jumping in like this, I'm just frustrated that THIS is what's the community is going to spend its time on. Seems rather much a waste. --Jonathan (Also, someone was an idiot on the internet. OH NO! MUST BRING FORTH MY EPIC TYPING FINGERS. Isn't there an xckd about this?)
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| From | Curt <curty@free.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-18 16:09 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <slrnk80afa.2ps.curty@einstein.electron.org> |
| In reply to | #31555 |
On 2012-10-17, Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> wrote: >> Instead of "diabetic", try inserting the word "black" or "female". >> There's no shame in those either, yet I think that the offensiveness >> of either of those words used in that context should be obvious. > > To take it a little further, what if I said I got gypped. I think it > goes to gypsy's. Was it racist? I told a girl friend once that my laptop had been purloined, and she thought I was maligning her cat. Maybe not the same thing.
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| From | Zero Piraeus <schesis@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-17 20:02 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.2375.1350518602.27098.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #31548 |
: On 17 October 2012 19:53, Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> wrote: > To take it a little further, what if I said I got gypped. I think it > goes to gypsy's. Was it racist? "Racist" is a word with competing definitions, and intent is a factor in some of them ... but yes, many people are offended by such use of the word "gyp", just as they would be by similar use of "jew" as a verb. -[]z.
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| From | Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-18 01:44 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.2377.1350521081.27098.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #31548 |
On 18 October 2012 00:17, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Oct 2012 14:10:34 -0700, rurpy wrote:
>
>> On 10/17/2012 02:28 PM, Oscar Benjamin wrote:> On 17 October 2012 19:16,
>> Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 3:48 AM, <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>>>On 10/16/2012 08:45 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>>>>>> Except that you've made a 180-
>>>>>> degree turn from your advice to "ignore" bad behaviour, but
>>>>>> apparently didn't notice that *sending private emails* is not by any
>>>>>> definition "ignoring". So apparently you don't actually agree with
>>>>>> your own advice.
>>>>>
>>>>> Do you have Asberger's by any chance? Can you understand that I said
>>>>> "ignore" in the context of public discussions in this
>>>>> newsgroup/maillist?
>>>>
>>>> That's nothing to do with Asperger's. Ignoring something/someone does
>>>> not include sending a private message. What you may be trying to say
>>>> is that we should refrain from publicly responding to bad behaviour,
>>>> which is not the same thing. If you want to pull a Humpty Dumpty and
>>>> use "ignore" to mean "not respond to in public", then go ahead, I'm
>>>> not stopping you - but do please make it clear somewhere in your post.
>>>
>>> I would also assume that ignoring a post means not replying on or off
>>> list.
>>
>> Then I hope my reply to Chris clarified that for you as well.
>>
>>> Moreover, I think it's unfortunate for you to make this comment with an
>>> irrelevant reference to Asperger's syndrome. I'll give you the benefit
>>> of the doubt that you didn't mean it this way but the comment is easily
>>> interpreted as being disparaging to people with Asperger's.
>>
>> Yes, on rereading that, I agree it was uncalled for and I retract it and
>> apologize to any who may have been offended by it.
>
> Excuse me, I think that anybody who was offended by it needs to take a
> long, hard look at themselves. Would you be offended if Rurpy asked "Are
> you diabetic?" There's no more shame in being Aspie than there is in
> being diabetic, or allergic to wheat, or colour blind.
(rurpy, I know you already regret what you said so I'm not trying to
rub it in but I want to respond to what Steven said)
Steven, I almost followed that up with a post pointing out that it was
also quite offensive to you. But then I thought: No, Steven can look
after himself!
You're right, of course. There is nothing wrong with Asperger's. I
don't see much wrong with saying "Do you have Asberger's by any
chance?" (apart from the South-Park style mis-spelling) but I do see
something wrong with following it up with a patronising "Can you
understand..." as if only the other party having Asperger's can
explain your inability to understand one another.
To put it another way, I could say:
You're an idiot. Why can't you understand the simple things I say?
which is rude but it's rude at one (relevant) person. Instead I could
choose to say:
Do you have Down's? Can your mongoloid brain just not understand me?
which is rude at so many irrelevant people (I find it difficult to
write that since my cousin and some other very lovely people I know
have Down's but I that's roughly how I interpreted rurpy's comment the
*first* time I read it).
It came across to me as an offensive comment both to you and to people
with Asperger's that I would not tolerate generally. It is retracted
so I hold no ill will and don't want to dwell on it. In fact the very
quick retraction is a good thing to happen in relation to the many
things discussed above in this thread.
Oscar
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| From | Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-18 01:55 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.2379.1350521743.27098.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #31548 |
On 18/10/2012 01:44, Oscar Benjamin wrote: > > It came across to me as an offensive comment both to you and to people > with Asperger's that I would not tolerate generally. It is retracted > so I hold no ill will and don't want to dwell on it. In fact the very > quick retraction is a good thing to happen in relation to the many > things discussed above in this thread. > > Oscar > Can we drop this please guys? Being diagnosed earlier this year with Asperger was the best thing that ever happened to me, but being constantly reminded about my younger son who has the condition far worse than me and is partially deaf to boot is getting up my nose. -- Cheers. Mark Lawrence.
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| From | rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2012-10-16 20:00 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <0d05cd45-3f70-4662-8810-32d596d9889a@v19g2000pbt.googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #31416 |
On Oct 16, 9:27 pm, ru...@yahoo.com wrote: > On 10/14/2012 10:36 PM, alex23 wrote:> On Oct 15, 1:22 pm, ru...@yahoo.com wrote: > > >> Thus when a member of this esteemed group > >> was recently attacked as racist, for punning another member's > >> name when responding somewhat heatedly, > > > Again, there is a difference between "attacking" someone "as racist" > > and *criticising* their *comments* as *possibly* racist. When the > > person whose name was being punned said that they themselves were > > unsure whether it was intended as a racial attack, then the behaviour > > was worth commenting on. > > I just went back and reread what you and some others wrote > to make sure I was not misremembering and am comfortable > sticking with my description. (FTR, your initial response > was "Please, don't be a dick.") > > My intent was not to reargue that issue but to point out > that different people have differing ideas on what is > "acceptable" and "unacceptable" here and that if Ben > Finney's advice to respond (in moderation) whenever one > reads an "unacceptable" opinion is taken, one will create > an environment in which troll's will flourish. > > The best advise is to ignore such posts and encourage > others to do the same. Trolling posts certainly exist. And when 'troll' becomes a short-form for 'one-who-regularly-trolls' its fine as long as we remember that its a metonymy. When we forget http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMEe7JqBgvg should help by: 1. Showing how to deal with trolling 2. Reminding that such beings dont actually exist except as caricature Coming to current misbehavior on the list -- specifically Etienne's outburst against Steven, I am reminded of a similar situation a year ago Long thread -- Relevant starting is here http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2011-May/604893.html Abusive post http://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-list/2011-May/604914.html Maybe easier to read http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_thread/thread/17dca3bf467c9001/c53102a45da19386 The last thing that John Bokma posted (to the best of my knowledge) was: > Ben Finney <ben at benfinney.id.au> writes: > >>> Get a life. Or better, just fuck off and die. It will improve both the >>> world and the Python community, of which you are nothing but a little, >>> smelly shitstain. >> >> That abuse is entirely unwelcome in this community, against any person. >> Please desist. > You should have spoken up sooner, especially as the spokes person of > "this" community. But every bully has is fan club. > > -- > John Bokma If we think/feel that John Bokma was trolling then driving him off the list was a good thing. If not we need to question whether those actions were collectively sound. Specifically Steven's post that triggered Etienne's misbehavior is this: On Oct 5, 5:22 am, Steven D'Aprano <steve +comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote: > On Thu, 04 Oct 2012 14:10:46 -0400, Etienne Robillard wrote: > > Dear list, > > > Due to lack of energy and resources i'm really sad to announce the > > removal ofnotmmfrom pypi and bitbucket. > > Well that's just rude. Even if you don't intend to maintain the software > any more, why are you removing it from pypi? Since you say you are a fan > of Open Source software, just flag it as unmaintained and leave it for > somebody else to pick up. > > If you are going to abandon the project, release it on PyPI with a dual > MIT and GPL licence, and let it be taken over by somebody else. > > If you were looking for sympathy here, starting off by removing your > project from free hosting, then complaining that you can't pay for the > non-free hosting, was NOT the right way to do so. : > Steven I read Etienne as saying: 'I need money (or at least some sympathy)' Steven is unequivocally saying 'You are not getting it from here' Technically he is correct; humanly I am not so sure. [I have a personal regret that I did not rebut Steven's rudeness with a '... that is not necessarily the view of the whole group...' I hesitated to do so because I am not adept at giving sympathy without giving false hope and keeping the post at reasonable length. Anyhow this (too long) post is an attempt at correcting that.] In the earlier (Quora-thread) Terry Reedy's voice was most balanced and sane; unfortunately covered in the 'dog-pile' of all the rest. Hopefully he will put in his word here as well. [And Zero thank you for starting this thread] Rusi - http://blog.languager.org
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