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To whoever hacked into my Database

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  To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Γκρ33κ <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-06 17:25 +0200
    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-11-06 10:34 -0500
      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 21:20 +0000
        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 14:39 -0700
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 11:32 +1000
            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-08 09:15 +0000
              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 11:34 +0200
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 20:52 +1100
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-08 09:52 +0000
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 12:00 +0200
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Maarten <maarten.sneep@knmi.nl> - 2013-11-08 03:08 -0800
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 00:12 +1100
                      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 15:48 +0200
                        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-08 14:55 +0100
                        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 12:05 -0500
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-08 13:30 +0000
                      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 15:57 +0200
                        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-08 14:09 +0000
                        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-08 15:44 +0100
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-08 10:00 +0000
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 21:09 +1100
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-08 13:40 +0000
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-08 14:02 +0000
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 17:15 +0200
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-08 16:06 +0000
                      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 18:28 +0200
                        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database unknown <unknown@unknown.com> - 2013-11-08 16:48 +0000
                          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 18:57 +0200
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database unknown <unknown@unknown.com> - 2013-11-08 17:01 +0000
                              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 19:09 +0200
                                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 12:16 -0500
                                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ned Deily <nad@acm.org> - 2013-11-08 09:26 -0800
                                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-08 20:30 +0100
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database unknown <unknown@unknown.com> - 2013-11-08 16:10 +0000
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-08 16:46 +0100
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database aurelien@xload.io (Aurélien DESBRIÈRES) - 2013-11-08 14:56 +0100
        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 16:45 -0500
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 00:18 +0200
            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 09:45 +1100
            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 09:46 +1100
              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 00:56 +0200
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 10:04 +1100
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 01:10 +0200
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-11-07 23:18 +0000
                      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 01:28 +0200
                        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 10:32 +1100
                          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2013-11-08 00:42 -0800
                        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 18:19 +0000
                          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 21:18 +0200
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-08 09:12 +0000
        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 01:10 +0000
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 18:22 +0000
        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-08 09:06 +0000
    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-06 15:40 +0000
      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-11-06 18:02 +0100
    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-06 17:30 +0000
    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Γκρ33κ <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-06 23:26 +0200
      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database mm0fmf <none@mailinator.com> - 2013-11-06 21:51 +0000
      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-06 22:11 +0000
        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-11-06 22:22 +0000
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-11-06 16:34 -0600
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 09:54 +1100
            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-11-07 13:43 +0000
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-06 23:52 +0000
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 10:57 +1100
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-07 00:11 +0000
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-11-06 16:22 -0800
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-11-06 21:07 -0600
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 12:00 +1100
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-11-06 23:06 -0500
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-11-07 06:09 -0600
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database bob gailer <bgailer@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 07:19 -0500
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-07 16:27 +0000
        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ferrous Cranus <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 01:01 -0800
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ferrous Cranus <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 01:13 -0800
            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2013-11-07 11:35 +0200
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 09:15 +0000
            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ferrous Cranus <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 01:31 -0800
              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-07 10:06 +0000
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 15:46 +0200
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 00:59 +1100
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 16:16 +0200
                      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 01:33 +1100
                        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-11-07 14:58 +0000
                          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 16:13 +0100
                      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-11-07 19:22 -0500
              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 15:47 +0200
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-07 16:34 +0000
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 19:42 +0200
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-07 18:11 +0000
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-11-07 18:28 +0000
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 11:45 -0500
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 19:45 +0200
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-11-07 21:29 +0000
            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 00:31 +0200
            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database ishish <ishish@domhain.de> - 2013-11-08 00:32 +0000
      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Johannes Findeisen <mailman@hanez.org> - 2013-11-06 23:28 +0100
    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2013-11-06 18:19 -0500
    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 10:20 +0200
      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 19:31 +1100
        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 10:59 +0200
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-08 09:19 +0000
            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 11:37 +0200
              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-08 09:58 +0000
              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 04:59 -0500
            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 11:39 +0200
              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-08 09:55 +0000
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 12:05 +0200
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 21:13 +1100
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-08 14:27 +0100
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-08 13:31 +0000
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-08 14:53 +0100
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-11-08 09:11 -0800
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 05:08 +1100
                      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 19:15 -0800
                        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 20:24 -0800
                      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-11-11 14:47 -0800
                        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-11-11 18:49 -0500
                          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-11-11 22:24 -0800
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-11-12 05:30 -0600
                        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-12 00:03 +0000
                        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-11-11 17:16 -0800
                          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-11-12 18:21 +1300
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-12 09:34 +0000
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-12 20:35 +1100
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-12 11:20 +0100
                          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-11-11 22:31 -0800
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-12 10:09 +0100
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-11-12 03:23 -0800
                              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-12 18:22 +0100
                              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-12 23:25 +0000
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-11-12 06:02 -0700
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-12 17:27 +0100
                              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-13 00:41 +0000
                                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-13 09:08 +0100
                              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ferrous Cranus <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 23:46 +0200
                                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-11-13 13:52 -0800
                                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ferrous Cranus <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-14 12:46 +0200
                                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-14 12:32 +0000
                                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ferrous Cranus <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-14 15:24 +0200
                                      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-11-14 13:30 +0000
                                      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-15 00:27 +1100
                                      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-14 13:56 +0000
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-11-12 14:26 -0700
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-11-12 13:59 -0800
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-11-12 16:27 -0700
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-12 23:38 +0000
                              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ferrous Cranus <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 13:14 +0200
                                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-13 12:37 +0100
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-11-12 16:54 -0700
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-13 00:04 +0000
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-11-12 17:19 -0800
                              Bullying [was Re: To whoever hacked into my Database] Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-13 03:40 +0000
                                Re: Bullying [was Re: To whoever hacked into my Database] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 07:22 -0700
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-13 10:08 +0100
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 05:38 -0700
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 07:10 -0700
                            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-13 19:11 +0100
                              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database superchromix <markb77@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 10:27 -0800
                                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-11-13 10:30 -0800
                                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 20:02 +0100
                                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Zachary Ware <zachary.ware+pylist@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 13:24 -0600
                                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 19:36 +0000
                                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database William Ray Wing <wrw@mac.com> - 2013-11-13 15:11 -0500
                                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-11-13 19:54 -0500
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-08 21:23 +0200
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-11-08 20:23 +0000
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2013-11-12 11:37 +0200
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-11-08 19:06 -0500
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-09 00:14 +0000
                  Relational data model, relations, and relationships (was: To whoever hacked into my Database) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-11-09 11:34 +1100
              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-11-08 19:03 -0500
    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 07:54 +0200
      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 08:16 +0200
      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 17:20 +1100
        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 08:32 +0200
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 17:37 +1100
            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 09:05 +0200
              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 09:54 +0200
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 10:31 +0200
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 19:39 +1100
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 10:46 +0200
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 10:50 +0200
              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-09 15:07 +0000
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 18:58 +0200
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 18:59 +0200
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database ishish <ishish@domhain.de> - 2013-11-10 01:44 +0000
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-10 12:42 +0000
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-09 16:32 +0100
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-10 09:20 +1100
            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-10 12:32 +0200
              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-10 14:49 +0100
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-10 17:01 +0200
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-10 15:09 +0000
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-10 16:28 +0100
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-11-10 08:15 -0800
                      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-11-10 20:13 +0100
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-10 19:58 +0200
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Petite Abeille <petite.abeille@gmail.com> - 2013-11-10 18:57 +0100
                    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-10 20:46 +0200
                      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Petite Abeille <petite.abeille@gmail.com> - 2013-11-10 20:16 +0100
                        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-10 21:21 +0200
                          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Petite Abeille <petite.abeille@gmail.com> - 2013-11-10 20:32 +0100
                          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Rod Person <rodperson@rodperson.com> - 2013-11-10 14:54 -0500
                          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris “Kwpolska” Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2013-11-10 21:41 +0100
                          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Rod Person <rodperson@rodperson.com> - 2013-11-10 15:44 -0500
                          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Rod Person <rodperson@rodperson.com> - 2013-11-10 15:50 -0500
                          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-11 10:36 +1100
              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-10 14:45 +0000
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-10 17:12 +0200
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-10 15:24 +0000
        Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 08:35 +0200
          Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 17:45 +1100
            Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 09:11 +0200
              Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 18:19 +1100
                Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 09:44 +0200
                  Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-09 18:57 +1100
    Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-11 11:36 +0200
      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Ferrous Cranus <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> - 2013-11-12 15:37 +0200
      Re: To whoever hacked into my Database Robert Day <robert.day@merton.oxon.org> - 2013-11-16 10:40 +0000

Page 6 of 11 — ← Prev page 1 … 4 5 [6] 7 8 … 11  Next page →

#58761

Στις 8/11/2013 10:31 πμ, ο/η Chris Angelico έγραψε:
> On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Fortunately for me they have all failed.
>> That means that i have *actually* made security of my scripts stronger.
>>
>> Now whoever called me incompetent should think again before he accused me of
>> so. :-)
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris
>
> ChrisA
>


I have said this not out of arrogance but to shut some mounts calling me 
complete incompetent.

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#58764

On 08/11/2013 08:59, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος wrote:
> Στις 8/11/2013 10:31 πμ, ο/η Chris Angelico έγραψε:
>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος
>> <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Fortunately for me they have all failed.
>>> That means that i have *actually* made security of my scripts stronger.
>>>
>>> Now whoever called me incompetent should think again before he
>>> accused me of
>>> so. :-)
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris
>>
>> ChrisA
>>
>
>
> I have said this not out of arrogance but to shut some mounts calling me
> complete incompetent.

Ignoring the bit about shutting mounts, which shows how much effort you 
ever put into anything that you post, actually here I agree with you. 
But don't get too excited, it's only because "completely" isn't a strong 
enough adjective to use for your level of incompetence.

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#58769

Στις 8/11/2013 11:19 πμ, ο/η Mark Lawrence έγραψε:
> On 08/11/2013 08:59, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος wrote:
>> Στις 8/11/2013 10:31 πμ, ο/η Chris Angelico έγραψε:
>>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος
>>> <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Fortunately for me they have all failed.
>>>> That means that i have *actually* made security of my scripts stronger.
>>>>
>>>> Now whoever called me incompetent should think again before he
>>>> accused me of
>>>> so. :-)
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris
>>>
>>> ChrisA
>>>
>>
>>
>> I have said this not out of arrogance but to shut some mounts calling me
>> complete incompetent.
>
> Ignoring the bit about shutting mounts, which shows how much effort you
> ever put into anything that you post, actually here I agree with you.
> But don't get too excited, it's only because "completely" isn't a strong
> enough adjective to use for your level of incompetence.
>


You wouldn't be able to write the scripts i have written.
All you do is criticize me, but you never ever have posted code to 
anything i have asked.

Perhaps you can't even write a simpel script

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#58774

On 08/11/2013 09:37, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος wrote:
>
> You wouldn't be able to write the scripts i have written.
> All you do is criticize me, but you never ever have posted code to
> anything i have asked.
>
> Perhaps you can't even write a simpel script

I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will 
still be ugly.  Winston Churchill.

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

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#58776

On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 4:58 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> On 08/11/2013 09:37, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος wrote:
>>
>>
>> You wouldn't be able to write the scripts i have written.
>> All you do is criticize me, but you never ever have posted code to
>> anything i have asked.
>>
>> Perhaps you can't even write a simpel script
>
>
> I may be drunk, Miss, but in the morning I will be sober and you will still
> be ugly.  Winston Churchill.
>
isn't that ulgy?
>
> --
> Python is the second best programming language in the world.
> But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer
>
> Mark Lawrence
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com

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#58770

Στις 8/11/2013 11:19 πμ, ο/η Mark Lawrence έγραψε:
> On 08/11/2013 08:59, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος wrote:
>> Στις 8/11/2013 10:31 πμ, ο/η Chris Angelico έγραψε:
>>> On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 7:20 PM, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος
>>> <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Fortunately for me they have all failed.
>>>> That means that i have *actually* made security of my scripts stronger.
>>>>
>>>> Now whoever called me incompetent should think again before he
>>>> accused me of
>>>> so. :-)
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris
>>>
>>> ChrisA
>>>
>>
>>
>> I have said this not out of arrogance but to shut some mounts calling me
>> complete incompetent.
>
> Ignoring the bit about shutting mounts, which shows how much effort you
> ever put into anything that you post, actually here I agree with you.
> But don't get too excited, it's only because "completely" isn't a strong
> enough adjective to use for your level of incompetence.
>


You wouldn't be able to write the scripts i have written.
All you do is criticize me, but you never ever have posted code to 
anything i have asked.

Perhaps you can't even write a simple script.

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#58775

On 08/11/2013 09:39, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος wrote:
>
> You wouldn't be able to write the scripts i have written.
> All you do is criticize me, but you never ever have posted code to
> anything i have asked.
>
> Perhaps you can't even write a simple script.

That's again correct.  Everytime a question gets asked on the tutor 
mailing list, I read about it in the manuals, something that to my 
knowledge you've never done, then I post a reply.  I never reply to you 
as I've no expertise in using Python on web sites, plus it's a waste of 
time as you ignore the advice anyway.

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

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#58779

Στις 8/11/2013 11:55 πμ, ο/η Mark Lawrence έγραψε:
> On 08/11/2013 09:39, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος wrote:
>>
>> You wouldn't be able to write the scripts i have written.
>> All you do is criticize me, but you never ever have posted code to
>> anything i have asked.
>>
>> Perhaps you can't even write a simple script.
>
> That's again correct.  Everytime a question gets asked on the tutor
> mailing list, I read about it in the manuals, something that to my
> knowledge you've never done, then I post a reply.  I never reply to you
> as I've no expertise in using Python on web sites, plus it's a waste of
> time as you ignore the advice anyway.
>


I never ignore advices.
I read all answers as carefully as i can.
But nevertheless sometimes i feel things should have been better 
implemented using my way.

Not of course that i know better, but thats better suited for me in the 
level iam.

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#58781

On Fri, Nov 8, 2013 at 9:05 PM, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος <nikos.gr33k@gmail.com> wrote:
> I never ignore advices.
> I read all answers as carefully as i can.
> But nevertheless sometimes i feel things should have been better implemented
> using my way.
>
> Not of course that i know better, but thats better suited for me in the
> level iam.

Nikos: "How can I use a hammer to put in screws?"
Us: "Use a screwdriver instead."
Nikos: "But I want to use a hammer! Why does my house fall apart? I
used screws, they're supposed to be better!"

ChrisA

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#58785

Op 08-11-13 11:05, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος schreef:
> 
> I never ignore advices.

I doubt that. You have too often come back with the same
question some time after it was answered a previous time
for this to be credible.

> I read all answers as carefully as i can.

Then your reading skills leave much to be desired.

> But nevertheless sometimes i feel things should have been better
> implemented using my way.

That is ignoring advice. Implementing things in a way that goes against
the advice of those who know better, is what people mean by "ignoring
advice"

> Not of course that i know better, but thats better suited for me in the
> level iam.

Faulty code is better suited for the level you are in?

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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#58787

On 08/11/2013 10:05, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος wrote:
>
> I never ignore advices.
> I read all answers as carefully as i can.
> But nevertheless sometimes i feel things should have been better
> implemented using my way.

The only relational database that has no relationships as effectively 
there's only one table, despite what Denis McMahon (amongst others?) has 
said.

>
> Not of course that i know better, but thats better suited for me in the
> level iam.

And better suited to your customers as you've never exposed their data 
have you?  Apart from...

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

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#58790

Op 08-11-13 14:31, Mark Lawrence schreef:
> On 08/11/2013 10:05, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος wrote:
>>
>> I never ignore advices.
>> I read all answers as carefully as i can.
>> But nevertheless sometimes i feel things should have been better
>> implemented using my way.
> 
> The only relational database that has no relationships as effectively
> there's only one table, despite what Denis McMahon (amongst others?) has
> said.

I thought that in a relational database, the tables were the relations.
So a database with one table, defined one relation.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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#58817

On 11/08/2013 03:05 AM, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος wrote:
> I never ignore advices.
> I read all answers as carefully as i can.
> But nevertheless sometimes i feel things should have been better 
> implemented using my way.
> 
> Not of course that i know better, but thats better suited for me in the 
> level iam.

Most of the "advice" I've seen posted here has, as far
as I can tell, not intended to be useful but to serve 
as a way to telling you are incompetent are in other ways
insulting or useless.  I think you are quite right to 
ignore it (or tell the poster to get lost.)

Long before you showed up here, I noticed the tendency
to not answer questions directly but to jerk people off 
by giving hints or telling them to do something other
than they want to do.

Often that is good because the original request was 
for something that the OP really didn't want to do.
But sometimes the OP knows they want to do (but doesn't 
want or is unable to clearly explain why) and when 
they clearly state that, yes, they do want to do it 
their way, their question should be answered in good 
faith or, for those who just can't tell how to do 
something "wrong", ignored.

Instead the response is typically a lot of hostility 
directed at them for not "taking advice".  In other
words, the advice here is not free advice, but come 
with the price that you are expected to except it 
gratefully whether it was what you asked for or not.

I think you are quite right to reject advice that does 
not do what you want and ask again for advice that does.

FWIW, I am quite sure there are other readers of this 
group who feel the same way, but most people aren't  
willing to subject themselves to the bullying that
will be directed at anyone who publicly agrees with you.
It is the same way in real life too as I'm sure
you know.

Just wanted to let you know that not everybody here
is an asshole.  It is just that assholes, by their 
nature, are the loudest.

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#58831

On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 4:11 AM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 11/08/2013 03:05 AM, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος wrote:
>> I never ignore advices.
>> I read all answers as carefully as i can.
>> But nevertheless sometimes i feel things should have been better
>> implemented using my way.
>>
>> Not of course that i know better, but thats better suited for me in the
>> level iam.
>
> Most of the "advice" I've seen posted here has, as far
> as I can tell, not intended to be useful but to serve
> as a way to telling you are incompetent are in other ways
> insulting or useless.  I think you are quite right to
> ignore it (or tell the poster to get lost.)

Actually no; most of the advice has been genuine.

> Long before you showed up here, I noticed the tendency
> to not answer questions directly but to jerk people off
> by giving hints or telling them to do something other
> than they want to do.
>
> Often that is good because the original request was
> for something that the OP really didn't want to do.
> But sometimes the OP knows they want to do (but doesn't
> want or is unable to clearly explain why) and when
> they clearly state that, yes, they do want to do it
> their way, their question should be answered in good
> faith or, for those who just can't tell how to do
> something "wrong", ignored.

I disagree. If you go to a doctor and ask for a prescription for
<insert name of medication>, the doctor is quite right in refusing if
s/he believes that that won't help you. If the OP asks for a way to
stuff more into a single record in MySQL, then we're right to say "No,
don't do it that way".

Generally, people who ask for one thing and are advised another will
see that the advice is actually getting them to where they really
wanted to be. There's another thread now about calling from Python
into C, which I haven't been following closely, but I saw a comment
from its OP to the effect of "Oh right! Standard input/output would do
what I want!" - it may not have been specifically what was asked for,
but it was helpful. If it's not helpful, give a reason for that.

Do you (anyone) know better than all the people of this newsgroup? I
would think not, firstly because you're asking the question (why are
you asking if you already know better), and secondly because the
collective knowledge and skill is far greater than any individual's.
So why reject advice out of hand? If it's inapplicable for some
reason, _explain why_. Don't just go back and forth saying "But I want
it done like this" when all of us and conventional wisdom all say not
to do it.

ChrisA

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#58892

On Friday, November 8, 2013 11:38:37 PM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 4:11 AM,  rurpy wrote:
> > On 11/08/2013 03:05 AM, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος wrote:
> >> I never ignore advices.
> >> I read all answers as carefully as i can.
> >> But nevertheless sometimes i feel things should have been better
> >> implemented using my way.
> >> Not of course that i know better, but thats better suited for me in the
> >> level iam.
> > Most of the "advice" I've seen posted here has, as far
> > as I can tell, not intended to be useful but to serve
> > as a way to telling you are incompetent are in other ways
> > insulting or useless.  I think you are quite right to
> > ignore it (or tell the poster to get lost.)

> Actually no; most of the advice has been genuine.

I recollect Denis saying with a great deal of IRRITATION that he had
installed something (dont remember exactly what) and tried it out on
his machine JUST TO HELP NIKOS.

Which is to say that
- irritation/hostility
- wish to help 

are not necessarily incompatible

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#58894

On Saturday, November 9, 2013 8:45:17 AM UTC+5:30, rusi wrote:
> I recollect Denis saying with a great deal of IRRITATION that he had
> installed something (dont remember exactly what) and tried it out on
> his machine JUST TO HELP NIKOS.


By which I meant to say also that Nikos is not just getting
considerable help on this list, he is getting it in ridiculously large
amounts.

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#59112

On 11/08/2013 11:08 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 4:11 AM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 11/08/2013 03:05 AM, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος wrote:
>>> I never ignore advices.
>>> I read all answers as carefully as i can.
>>> But nevertheless sometimes i feel things should have been better
>>> implemented using my way.
>>>
>>> Not of course that i know better, but thats better suited for me in the
>>> level iam.
>>
>> Most of the "advice" I've seen posted here has, as far
>> as I can tell, not intended to be useful but to serve
>> as a way to telling you are incompetent are in other ways
>> insulting or useless.  I think you are quite right to
>> ignore it (or tell the poster to get lost.)
> 
> Actually no; most of the advice has been genuine.

Actually yes; most of the advice has not been genuine.

Of course neither you nor I know for sure since we can't
read minds.  But when "advice" consists of things like
 "Maybe try some of the advice you have been given instead? "
 "use php"
 "Try starting with something simple. The following is a 
  step by step guide... Now, and this is really really
  going to tax you..."
 A treatise on 1nf in six short sentences followed by
  ruminations on competence including "...never shows
  a glimmer of interest in learning."
 "Now that helpful suggestions have been offered, and
  the OP continues to obstinately refuse to learn,"
I don't consider it "helpful" nor do I believe the 
claims of  such people (who have an history of antagonistic
responses) that they are genuinely trying to be helpful.

If you want to be helpful try posting useful information
without the insults, with an attempt to tune it to the 
level of understanding the recipient and without the 
offensive "do what I tell you" attitude.

>> Long before you showed up here, I noticed the tendency
>> to not answer questions directly but to jerk people off
>> by giving hints or telling them to do something other
>> than they want to do.
>>
>> Often that is good because the original request was
>> for something that the OP really didn't want to do.
>> But sometimes the OP knows they want to do (but doesn't
>> want or is unable to clearly explain why) and when
>> they clearly state that, yes, they do want to do it
>> their way, their question should be answered in good
>> faith or, for those who just can't tell how to do
>> something "wrong", ignored.
> 
> I disagree. If you go to a doctor and ask for a prescription for
> <insert name of medication>, the doctor is quite right in refusing if
> s/he believes that that won't help you. If the OP asks for a way to
> stuff more into a single record in MySQL, then we're right to say "No,
> don't do it that way".

No you're not.  Without determining how the data is to be 
used you can't say it's not normalized.  Otherwise one
could claim every of the millions of databases containing 
addresses is not even 1nf because their designers crammed
two pieces of information (street number and street name) 
into a single datum.

Second, to simply say, "don't do that, it's not 1nf" when 
most database systems provide data types like arrays, set, 
composites etc whose purpose is to do what you're saying not 
to do is not being helpful -- it's being domineering and 
condescending.

Finally you're wrong to say "no" because you are not in
a position to evaluate all the criteria that determines 
right or wrong for the OP.  For example it is often easier 
when learning to use something one understands better, or 
uses less code or is  simpler is some other way to the learner, 
with the intent to fix it later if experience shows the need.

> Generally, people who ask for one thing and are advised another will
> see that the advice is actually getting them to where they really
> wanted to be. There's another thread now about calling from Python
> into C, which I haven't been following closely, but I saw a comment
> from its OP to the effect of "Oh right! Standard input/output would do
> what I want!" - it may not have been specifically what was asked for,
> but it was helpful. If it's not helpful, give a reason for that.

Right.  Which is why I wrote 

  >> Often that telling the OP he is doing it wrong] is good because
  >> the original request was for something that the OP really didn't
  >> want to do.

I then went on to address my comments to the case where the OP insists 
he *does* want what he asks for.  So you could have saved us all a 
little time by leaving out the above irrelevant paragraph.

> Do you (anyone) know better than all the people of this newsgroup?

That you are so naive as to propose that majority opinion
is always right is so naive I'm not sure what to think, other 
than to wonder how old you are.

> I would think not, firstly because you're asking the question (why are
> you asking if you already know better), 

That's pretty illogical thinking.  How can he know better *before*
he asks and sees the answers.  Only after he gets the answers can
one decide if they are better or not.  

> and secondly because the
> collective knowledge and skill is far greater than any individual's.

Really?  You can't think of cases where one individual saw beyond
the collective view?  Your premise is defective.  There are many 
cases where the collective view is faulty do to group-think, 
influence by leaders, emotional involvement, etc.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_behavior

> So why reject advice out of hand? If it's inapplicable for some
> reason, _explain why_. Don't just go back and forth saying "But I want
> it done like this" when all of us and conventional wisdom all say not
> to do it.

He didn't reject it out of hand, he gave some reasons why he 
rejected it.   But as is SOP here, you chose not to see or pay
any attention to those reasons.

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#59120

On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 5:47 PM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 11/08/2013 11:08 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 4:11 AM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>> On 11/08/2013 03:05 AM, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος wrote:
>>>> I never ignore advices.
>>>> I read all answers as carefully as i can.
>>>> But nevertheless sometimes i feel things should have been better
>>>> implemented using my way.
>>>>
>>>> Not of course that i know better, but thats better suited for me in the
>>>> level iam.
>>>
>>> Most of the "advice" I've seen posted here has, as far
>>> as I can tell, not intended to be useful but to serve
>>> as a way to telling you are incompetent are in other ways
>>> insulting or useless.  I think you are quite right to
>>> ignore it (or tell the poster to get lost.)
>>
>> Actually no; most of the advice has been genuine.
>
> Actually yes; most of the advice has not been genuine.

>
> Of course neither you nor I know for sure since we can't
> read minds.  But when "advice" consists of things like
>  "Maybe try some of the advice you have been given instead? "
>  "use php"

It seems like you take the view that people have decided to bully or
tease or laugh at this one person here.  Sometimes other's ask
question and they quickly get gently (maybe not gently) teased, but
since I have been listening here it is one person overwhelmingly who
gets this response.  It doesn't mean its really the highest order
behavior, but its not done in a vacuum either.

>  "Try starting with something simple. The following is a
>   step by step guide... Now, and this is really really
>   going to tax you..."

So, you don't like teasing.  Why not go back and see where this
teasing started.  I would guess that its not from the beginning.  Its
only after a history that makes it appropriate (maybe not appropriate,
but understandable).

>  A treatise on 1nf in six short sentences followed by
>   ruminations on competence including "...never shows
>   a glimmer of interest in learning."

This one I think is mine.  I don't pretend to be able to write a
treatise in however many sentences, let alone 6.  This 'guidance' was
to provide a link to a more substantial authority than me about why
its a bad idea to use a database without normalizing data.  If you
want to get stuff out of a database with sql you have to normalize it,
or know well why you would not.  The thread about normalizing
degenerated (sorry if the term is loaded) into people talking about
various language data types that can be stored in a sql database.
Blob, is the one I remember.  So, if you refuse the idea that its
better to build a second table with a one to many relationship to the
first table rows, then you need to know how much python code will be
required to reverse that 'shoving stuff' in a single column.  Its a
choice.  Some people like writing sql, some like writing whatever.  If
you come here for advice, and you expect to be taken seriously, you
need to come back with questions or arguments about why the advice
doesn't make sense to you.  The meme about the shortage of new lines
is amusing, not because of the first time it came up, but because it
is such a densely recurring theme.

>  "Now that helpful suggestions have been offered, and
>   the OP continues to obstinately refuse to learn,"
> I don't consider it "helpful" nor do I believe the
> claims of  such people (who have an history of antagonistic
> responses) that they are genuinely trying to be helpful.

What do you consider 'helpful', because in this case, people have
tried the go slow approach, the here is some stuff you can read
approach, the here is a 5 line piece of code that solves your problem
approach.  When not having fun, people in this list have put an order
of magnitude more time into trying to help this OP than any other
questioner, and the story always circles back.
>
> If you want to be helpful try posting useful information
> without the insults, with an attempt to tune it to the
> level of understanding the recipient and without the
> offensive "do what I tell you" attitude.
>
>>> Long before you showed up here, I noticed the tendency
>>> to not answer questions directly but to jerk people off
>>> by giving hints or telling them to do something other
>>> than they want to do.
>>>
>>> Often that is good because the original request was
>>> for something that the OP really didn't want to do.
>>> But sometimes the OP knows they want to do (but doesn't
>>> want or is unable to clearly explain why) and when
>>> they clearly state that, yes, they do want to do it
>>> their way, their question should be answered in good
>>> faith or, for those who just can't tell how to do
>>> something "wrong", ignored.
>>
>> I disagree. If you go to a doctor and ask for a prescription for
>> <insert name of medication>, the doctor is quite right in refusing if
>> s/he believes that that won't help you. If the OP asks for a way to
>> stuff more into a single record in MySQL, then we're right to say "No,
>> don't do it that way".
>
> No you're not.  Without determining how the data is to be
> used you can't say it's not normalized.  Otherwise one
> could claim every of the millions of databases containing
> addresses is not even 1nf because their designers crammed
> two pieces of information (street number and street name)
> into a single datum.

Talking about whether an address is atomic is a can of worms.  Anyone
who has worked with addresses finds this out.  But in the generic
sense an address is a single description of a location.  Saying that
it should be two fields, one with number, and one with name doesn't
sound right to me because each field is too small to have any meaning.
>
> Second, to simply say, "don't do that, it's not 1nf" when
> most database systems provide data types like arrays, set,
> composites etc whose purpose is to do what you're saying not
> to do is not being helpful -- it's being domineering and
> condescending.

You TOTALLY lose me here!  implementations may include the ability to
do that stuff, but why?  If you don't understand the basics of sql
statements, deciding you want to use features that break the basic
idea of what an RDB is should be responded to with firm condescension.
>
I'll stop.  I'm getting low on new-lines  (just kidding!)


> Finally you're wrong to say "no" because you are not in
> a position to evaluate all the criteria that determines
> right or wrong for the OP.  For example it is often easier
> when learning to use something one understands better, or
> uses less code or is  simpler is some other way to the learner,
> with the intent to fix it later if experience shows the need.
>
>> Generally, people who ask for one thing and are advised another will
>> see that the advice is actually getting them to where they really
>> wanted to be. There's another thread now about calling from Python
>> into C, which I haven't been following closely, but I saw a comment
>> from its OP to the effect of "Oh right! Standard input/output would do
>> what I want!" - it may not have been specifically what was asked for,
>> but it was helpful. If it's not helpful, give a reason for that.
>
> Right.  Which is why I wrote
>
>   >> Often that telling the OP he is doing it wrong] is good because
>   >> the original request was for something that the OP really didn't
>   >> want to do.
>
> I then went on to address my comments to the case where the OP insists
> he *does* want what he asks for.  So you could have saved us all a
> little time by leaving out the above irrelevant paragraph.
>
>> Do you (anyone) know better than all the people of this newsgroup?
>
> That you are so naive as to propose that majority opinion
> is always right is so naive I'm not sure what to think, other
> than to wonder how old you are.
>
>> I would think not, firstly because you're asking the question (why are
>> you asking if you already know better),
>
> That's pretty illogical thinking.  How can he know better *before*
> he asks and sees the answers.  Only after he gets the answers can
> one decide if they are better or not.
>
>> and secondly because the
>> collective knowledge and skill is far greater than any individual's.
>
> Really?  You can't think of cases where one individual saw beyond
> the collective view?  Your premise is defective.  There are many
> cases where the collective view is faulty do to group-think,
> influence by leaders, emotional involvement, etc.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_behavior
>
>> So why reject advice out of hand? If it's inapplicable for some
>> reason, _explain why_. Don't just go back and forth saying "But I want
>> it done like this" when all of us and conventional wisdom all say not
>> to do it.
>
> He didn't reject it out of hand, he gave some reasons why he
> rejected it.   But as is SOP here, you chose not to see or pay
> any attention to those reasons.
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list



-- 
Joel Goldstick
http://joelgoldstick.com

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#59156

On 11/11/2013 04:49 PM, Joel Goldstick wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 11, 2013 at 5:47 PM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> On 11/08/2013 11:08 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>> On Sat, Nov 9, 2013 at 4:11 AM,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> On 11/08/2013 03:05 AM, Νίκος Αλεξόπουλος wrote:
>>>>> I never ignore advices.
>>>>> I read all answers as carefully as i can.
>>>>> But nevertheless sometimes i feel things should have been better
>>>>> implemented using my way.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not of course that i know better, but thats better suited for me in the
>>>>> level iam.
>>>>
>>>> Most of the "advice" I've seen posted here has, as far
>>>> as I can tell, not intended to be useful but to serve
>>>> as a way to telling you are incompetent are in other ways
>>>> insulting or useless.  I think you are quite right to
>>>> ignore it (or tell the poster to get lost.)
>>>
>>> Actually no; most of the advice has been genuine.
>>
>> Actually yes; most of the advice has not been genuine.
>>
>> Of course neither you nor I know for sure since we can't
>> read minds.  But when "advice" consists of things like
>>  "Maybe try some of the advice you have been given instead? "
>>  "use php"
> 
> It seems like you take the view that people have decided to bully or
> tease or laugh at this one person here.  Sometimes other's ask
> question and they quickly get gently (maybe not gently) teased, but
> since I have been listening here it is one person overwhelmingly who
> gets this response.  It doesn't mean its really the highest order
> behavior, but its not done in a vacuum either.

I do not (as another poster put it) think that Nikos is
an "innocent" being picked on.  I do think that this group
would be a better place were those who enjoy baiting, 
flaming and otherwise venting their frustration with 
Nikos to vent in some other private way, but it seems I
was unable to convince anyone else of that (or at least 
any of those who do it most).  I am not unequivocally 
defending Nikos but in this particular case, where he is 
being bashed for not accepting a "solution" that doesn't 
meet his needs (as he sees them), I think he is right.

>>  "Try starting with something simple. The following is a
>>   step by step guide... Now, and this is really really
>>   going to tax you..."
> 
> So, you don't like teasing.  Why not go back and see where this
> teasing started.  I would guess that its not from the beginning.  Its
> only after a history that makes it appropriate (maybe not appropriate,
> but understandable).

Ridicule is a more accurate description than teasing.
And you're right, I don't like it.  Yes, it's understandable
(in the same way it is understandable that the victim of
a crime might want to murder the perpetrator) but that
doesn't make it acceptable.

>>  A treatise on 1nf in six short sentences followed by
>>   ruminations on competence including "...never shows
>>   a glimmer of interest in learning."
> 
> This one I think is mine.  I don't pretend to be able to write a
> treatise in however many sentences, let alone 6.  This 'guidance' was
> to provide a link to a more substantial authority than me about why
> its a bad idea to use a database without normalizing data.  If you
> want to get stuff out of a database with sql you have to normalize it,
> or know well why you would not.  The thread about normalizing
> degenerated (sorry if the term is loaded) into people talking about
> various language data types that can be stored in a sql database.
> Blob, is the one I remember.  So, if you refuse the idea that its
> better to build a second table with a one to many relationship to the
> first table rows, then you need to know how much python code will be
> required to reverse that 'shoving stuff' in a single column.  Its a
> choice.  

Right, that's my point.  It is a choice with tradeoffs;
either option will have some advantages and some disadvantages.
He was trying to figure out the Python code needed.  And your
suggestion is not necessarily best either: why a 1:M relationship?
why not a M:M relationship?  There may be duplicate file downloads
resulting in your suggestion being non-normalized.  So I think 
there is some justification in his looking for a simpler
Python solution even if it is not the way the majority here
would do it.

>[...]
>> No you're not.  Without determining how the data is to be
>> used you can't say it's not normalized.  Otherwise one
>> could claim every of the millions of databases containing
>> addresses is not even 1nf because their designers crammed
>> two pieces of information (street number and street name)
>> into a single datum.
> 
> Talking about whether an address is atomic is a can of worms.  Anyone
> who has worked with addresses finds this out.  But in the generic
> sense an address is a single description of a location.  Saying that
> it should be two fields, one with number, and one with name doesn't
> sound right to me because each field is too small to have any meaning.

Of course it has meaning.  The number identifies a location 
on a street.  My point was that what is "atomic" depends on 
*you* and how *you* analyze your data (which depends on how 
you intend to use it.)  If you don't care about being able 
to group by street name, then the composite field (street 
number, street name) is, for your purposes, atomic.

Saying to someone that a separate table is usually best, 
pointing out potential problems with a non-atomic datum is 
good, saying dogmatically IT IS WRONG is itself wrong.

I haven't read much of the other Nikos thread (no time this 
month) and it may well be that faced with the same issue 
myself, I would use a separate table.  But I think he is 
being perfectly reasonable in rejecting a separate table if 
he feels it does not meet *his* needs (even if he is wrong 
in your opinion.)  Given the invective and hostility directed 
at him, I have no problem supporting him *on this issue*.

As an aside, one frequently sees similar dogmatic overstatements 
here: "never use eval()", "ALWAYS use bind parameters in sql 
statements", "NOBODY uses cgi", diatribes against regular 
expressions or xml, and so on.  All of these may be generally 
true but there are plenty of exceptions, and if a poster, 
having been informed of why they should be avoided, decides 
(rightly or wrongly) that those reasons don't apply to him 
for some reason, I think his decision should be respected even 
if you don't agree with it.  (Doesn't mean you have to provide 
an answer, just don't become offensive because he wouldn't do 
what you told him to.)

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#59185

On 2013-11-11 22:24, rurpy@yahoo.com wrote:
> And your suggestion is not necessarily best either: why a 1:M
> relationship? why not a M:M relationship?  There may be duplicate
> file downloads resulting in your suggestion being non-normalized. 

You think that, after rejecting the addition of *one* new table for
1:M relationships, he'd go for adding *two* new tables for an N:M
relationship?

> But I think he is being perfectly reasonable in rejecting a
> separate table if he feels it does not meet *his* needs (even if he
> is wrong in your opinion.) 

However, the needs that he *describes* call for at least one more
table, on pain of future problems, inter alia:

- non-atomic updates
- growth to an unknown number of files, exceeding the size of his one
  CHAR/VARCHAR field
- difficulty querying which files were used (including the inability
  to easily summarize/group by file)
- inability to maintain metadata for each file (a case for your N:M
  suggestion)

Knowing these things and Nikos' historical inability to debug issues,
it' worthwhile to get him to use a method that will result in less
pain.  Especially when you know from his description that his choices
*WILL* cause him future pain.

-tkc

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