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I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits...

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  I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-19 19:12 -0700
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-07-19 22:34 -0400
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... lkcl <luke.leighton@gmail.com> - 2011-07-24 12:30 -0700
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-19 21:34 -0500
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-22 12:34 +1200
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-22 03:30 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-07-24 10:02 -0700
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-25 11:59 +1200
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-07-25 01:37 +0000
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2011-07-19 22:44 -0400
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 06:05 -0700
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 20:20 -0700
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2011-07-21 10:52 -0400
          Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-22 03:38 -0700
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-20 14:28 +1000
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2011-07-20 09:20 +0200
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-20 17:28 +1000
          Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 02:51 -0500
            Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-20 18:25 +1000
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 09:39 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 10:32 -0700
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Phlip <phlip2005@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 13:58 -0700
          Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 15:13 -0700
            Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Phlip <phlip2005@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 15:52 -0700
              Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 16:02 -0700
          Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Corey Richardson <kb1pkl@aim.com> - 2011-07-20 18:19 -0400
          Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 15:41 -0700
          Tkinter in Python has native widgets (was: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits...) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-07-21 11:00 +1000
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 01:02 -0600
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Thomas Jollans <t@jollybox.de> - 2011-07-20 11:59 +0200
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Johann Hibschman <jhibschman+usenet@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 07:16 -0500
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 06:47 -0700
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-07-20 10:17 -0400
          Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 07:27 -0700
            Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 08:09 -0700
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Thomas Jollans <t@jollybox.de> - 2011-07-20 17:21 +0200
          Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 08:40 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-07-20 14:10 +0000
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 07:30 -0700
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> - 2011-07-20 07:04 -0400
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-07-20 14:12 +0000
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 07:41 -0700
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-07-20 06:08 -0500
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... sturlamolden <sturlamolden@yahoo.no> - 2011-07-20 07:45 -0700
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> - 2011-07-20 07:16 -0400
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2011-07-20 13:31 +0200
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 05:52 -0700
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 18:17 -0700
      Re: changing thread topics (was: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits...) Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-07-20 20:38 -0500
      Changing subject sucks. Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Phlip <phlip2005@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 19:34 -0700
        Re: Changing subject sucks. Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-21 14:08 +1000
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2011-07-24 18:51 -0600
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-07-24 22:06 -0400
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 19:06 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2011-07-20 20:32 -0700
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2011-07-21 15:44 +1000
    Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-22 12:30 +1200
      Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-07-22 23:36 -0700
        Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-23 22:21 +1200
          Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2011-07-24 13:56 +1000
          Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-24 15:00 +1000
          Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits... Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-07-24 16:24 -0700

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#9967

On 2011-07-20, Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> wrote:
> On Tue, 2011-07-19 at 19:12 -0700, sturlamolden wrote:
>> What is wrong with them
>> 1. Designed for other languages, particularly C++, tcl and Java.
>> 2. Bloatware. Qt and wxWidgets are C++ application frameworks. (Python
>> has a standard library!)
>
> I've no idea what this means.  I happily use pygtk.

I agree.  PyGTK works great -- on platforms where GTK works great.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! !!  I am having fun!!!
                                  at               
                              gmail.com            

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#9971

On 20 Jul, 13:04, Adam Tauno Williams <awill...@whitemice.org> wrote:

> > 3. Instances of extension types can clean themselves up on
> > deallocation. No parent-child ownership model to mess things up. No
> > manual clean-up. Python does all the reference counting we need.
>
> NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.  UI's don't work that way.  They are inherently
> hierarchical.  Just get over it.

Swing relies on the Java GC. Tkinter also does this correct.

A hierarchy is nice for event processing an layout management, but not
for memory mangement.

C resources should be freed by Python calling tp_dealloc, not by the
parent calling a .destroy() method on it's children.

Python is not C++, so we have a method to automatically reclaim C
resources. I don't want a toolkit to deallocate objects while Python
still holds references to them (PyQt) or require a manual call to
deallocate a widget tree (wxPython).

Python knows when it's time to deallocate C resources, and then makes
a call to the tp_dealloc member of the type object.

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#9959

On 07/19/2011 09:12 PM, sturlamolden wrote:
> How I would prefer the GUI library to be, if based on "native"
> widgets:

http://xkcd.com/927/

:-)

-tkc

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#9972

On 20 Jul, 13:08, Tim Chase <python.l...@tim.thechases.com> wrote:

> http://xkcd.com/927/
>
> :-)

Indeed.

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#9960

On Wed, 2011-07-20 at 11:59 +0200, Thomas Jollans wrote:
> On 20/07/11 04:12, sturlamolden wrote:
> > 5. No particular GUI thread synchronization is needed  -- Python has a
> > GIL.
> That's where you're wrong: the GIL is not a feature of Python. It is an
> unfortunate implementation detail of current versions of CPython. (and
> PyPy, apparently)

And this GIL is certainly *not* a synchronization solution.  

Even with a GIL you can hang yourself with threads - I've verified
this. :)

> > 6. Expose the event loop to Python.
> You can tap into the Gtk/GLib event loop. 

+1

> What do you propose? We know what happens when you write a fresh GUI
> toolkit: Swing and Tkinter show us.
> The only reasonable option to create a toolkit that actually looks good
> is to base it on the "usual" GUI libraries.

+1

> It is perfectly reasonable to be required to manually call some sort of
> > Is it worth the hassle to start a new GUI toolkit project?
> No.

+1, or -1, errr.. which ever one means I agree with "no".

> > Or should modern deskop apps be written with something completely
> > different, such as HTML5
> NO!!

Barf.

Of course, Gtk [at least experimentally] supports an HTML5 canvas.  A
good UI library provides a lot beyond painting-the-screen (there are
events, and packing/geometry, etc...).  So even if you use HTML5 you are
then going to lay something on top of that [JavaScript + JQuery...].

> Don't be silly. Even using a crappy windowing toolkit is a lot simpler
> than doing the HTML/JavaScript/HTTP/etc dance.

+1

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#9961

sturlamolden, 20.07.2011 04:12:
> Or should modern deskop apps be written with something completely
> different, such as HTML5?

Depends. For many "desktop" apps, this is actually quite workable, with the 
additional advantage of having an Internet-/Intranet-ready implementation 
available in case you happen to need it later on.

Plus, you can take advantage of any HTML designers (as in "humans") you 
happen to have around, whereas you are often a bit on your own when you 
design a GUI using a toolkit, especially when you want it to work well in a 
cross-platform way.

Stefan

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#9963

On Jul 19, 9:12 pm, sturlamolden <sturlamol...@yahoo.no> wrote:
> What is wrong with them:
>
> 1. Designed for other languages, particularly C++, tcl and Java.

This fact bugs me but no one is willing to put forth an effort to make
things happen. So we are stuck with what we have now.

> 3. Unpythonic memory management: Python references to deleted C++
> objects (PyQt). Manual dialog destruction (wxPython).

Users should NEVER need to explicitly destroy a dialog. However it
would (should) be easy to subclass the wxDialg and create your own
logic tied to the ok and cancel buttons. See tkSimpleDialog for old
inspiration or see my threads on tkSimpleDialog improved for modern
inspiration.

> Parent-child
> ownership might be smart in C++, but in Python we have a garbage
> collector.

There is nothing wrong with hierarchy. Please show examples where this
relationship fails.

> 5. All projects to write a Python GUI toolkit die before they are
> finished. (General lack of interest, bindings for Qt or wxWidgets
> bloatware are mature, momentum for web development etc.)

Well you've got to get some "like minds" together. I would be willing
to participate on something more Pythonic. PyGUI looks promising.


> How I would prefer the GUI library to be, if based on "native"
> widgets:
>
> 1. Lean and mean -- do nothing but GUI. No database API, networking
> API, threading API, etc.

PyGUI

> 2. Do as much processing in Python as possible. No more native code
> (C, C++, Cython) than needed.

Some heavy lifting must be done in these languages.

> 3. Instances of extension types can clean themselves up on
> deallocation. No parent-child ownership model to mess things up.

I don't see how that "messes things up"?

> 4. No artist framework. Use OpenGL, Cairo, AGG or whatever else is
> suitable.

Hopefully you want a canvas at least. I don't think i could get by
without one. Not only is a canvas good for drawing graphics via user
input but also for creating custom widgets that the GUI does not
expose.

> 6. Expose the event loop to Python.

This would be nice.

> 8. Written for Python in Python -- not bindings for a C++ or tcl
> toolkit.

Agreed! Wx is nice but feels too much like writing C.

> Is it worth the hassle to start a new GUI toolkit project?

It's a huge hassle and might be much better to grow/repair some
existing API's. PyGUI is one however it's very young. Tkinter could
use some re-factoring however it will always be based on an embedded
TCL interpreter doing "magic" behind the scenes.

> Or should modern deskop apps be written with something completely
> different, such as HTML5?

F___ NO! That sort of thing needs many more years to mature. Currently
we are in the beginning phases when everybody has "their" idea of what
is perfect and nobody agrees on which is best. Plus you have many
incompatibilities between the major browsers. People like to parrot
off about how cross-platform these things are compared to GUI; and
that's true only for the same version of the same browser. You just
switch from OS incompatibility to browser incompatibility.

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#10000

RE: *Ben Finney changes thread subject*

Please everyone, do not change the subject of someone's thread because
it's considered rude. Thank you.

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#10002 — Re: changing thread topics (was: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits...)

On 07/20/2011 08:17 PM, rantingrick wrote:
>
> RE: *Ben Finney changes thread subject*
>
> Please everyone, do not change the subject of someone's thread because
> it's considered rude. Thank you.

Right...do not change the subject because it's considered rude. 
Change it because the topic drifted from the original topic and a 
fitting subject line helps people decide whether they want to 
read any subsequent sub-threads.  That's just email etiquette as 
old as the tubes.

-tkc

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#10005 — Changing subject sucks. Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits...

On Jul 20, 6:17 pm, rantingrick <rantingr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> RE: *Ben Finney changes thread subject*
>
> Please everyone, do not change the subject of someone's thread because
> it's considered rude. Thank you.

No it isn't. Rambling off on a new topic under the wrong subject is
rude.

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#10009 — Re: Changing subject sucks. Re: I am fed up with Python GUI toolkits...

On Thu, 21 Jul 2011 12:34 pm Phlip wrote:

> On Jul 20, 6:17 pm, rantingrick <rantingr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> RE: *Ben Finney changes thread subject*
>>
>> Please everyone, do not change the subject of someone's thread because
>> it's considered rude. Thank you.
> 
> No it isn't. Rambling off on a new topic under the wrong subject is
> rude.


Ha ha, rantingrick lecturing others on rudeness! How cute!

Or hypocritical. Sometimes I get those two confused.


-- 
Steven

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#10237

On 07/20/2011 07:17 PM, rantingrick wrote:
> Please everyone, do not change the subject of someone's thread 
> because it's considered rude. Thank you.

Too funny.  Says who?  Changing the subject line to reflect the
direction this part of the thread (a branch if you will) is going is
definitely appropriate.  At least according to etiquette rules that go
back for some time (likely before you were around--you're pretty young
no?)

Besides forking is a time-honored open source tradition.

> What about the etiquette of staying on topic? The only person who is 
> OFFICIALLY allowed to change the subject matter of a thread is the 
> OP. Sure some folks might make an off topic post here and there 
> however i find it bombastically rude when folks just change a topic 
> of thread they do not own.

Oh really.  I guess since you are one of the leaders I guess it must be
so.  Too funny.

Fortunately not all of us are using the crippled one-dimensional
Gmail "conversation" way of reading threads on e-mails.  So as long as
the topic is appropriately changed, we can deal with branches that twist
and turn.  My e-mail reader threads them all quite nicely.

Now replying to an existing thread to start an entirely new, unrelated
thread is definitely rude.

> How would you like it if i came to your house and wrote my name on 
> your refrigerator door, or used your toilet without asking, or slept 
> in your bed? I would not do that because i have manners. Feel free to
> make yourself comfortable but don't put you feet on the coffee 
> table.

Did you study "logical fallacies" in English classes at uni?  (If she
weighs the same as a duck then she's made of wood, and therefore she's a
witch).

And as for manners go, I'm glad to see you've improved so much in the
last year.  Who knows you might just be removed from kill files yet.

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#10239

On 7/24/2011 8:51 PM, Michael Torrie wrote:

> Now replying to an existing thread to start an entirely new, unrelated
> thread is definitely rude.

Rude or not, it tends to be unproductive. If someone posted "Help with 
threading internals" here, it could well not be seen by the appropriate 
people, especially if they have threads collapsed.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#10004

RE: *Tim Chase changes topic and talks smack*

On Jul 20, 8:38 pm, Tim Chase <python.l...@tim.thechases.com> wrote:
> On 07/20/2011 08:17 PM, rantingrick wrote:
>
> > RE: *Ben Finney changes thread subject*
>
> > Please everyone, do not change the subject of someone's thread because
> > it's considered rude. Thank you.
>
> Right...do not change the subject because it's considered rude.
> Change it because the topic drifted from the original topic and a
> fitting subject line helps people decide whether they want to
> read any subsequent sub-threads.  That's just email etiquette as
> old as the tubes.

What about the etiquette of staying on topic? The only person who is
OFFICIALLY allowed to change the subject matter of a thread is the OP.
Sure some folks might make an off topic post here and there however i
find it bombastically rude when folks just change a topic of thread
they do not own.

How would you like it if i came to your house and wrote my name on
your refrigerator door, or used your toilet without asking, or slept
in your bed? I would not do that because i have manners. Feel free to
make yourself comfortable but don't put you feet on the coffee table.

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#10008

rantingrick <rantingr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What about the etiquette of staying on topic?

Such as raising your personal opinion of online etiquette in a thread
on GUI toolkits?

As always, there's what you say, and there's what you do, and never
the twain shall meet.

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#10010

On 20Jul2011 19:06, rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> wrote:
| 
| RE: *Tim Chase changes topic and talks smack*
| 
| On Jul 20, 8:38 pm, Tim Chase <python.l...@tim.thechases.com> wrote:
| > On 07/20/2011 08:17 PM, rantingrick wrote:
| >
| > > RE: *Ben Finney changes thread subject*
| >
| > > Please everyone, do not change the subject of someone's thread because
| > > it's considered rude. Thank you.
| >
| > Right...do not change the subject because it's considered rude.
| > Change it because the topic drifted from the original topic and a
| > fitting subject line helps people decide whether they want to
| > read any subsequent sub-threads.  That's just email etiquette as
| > old as the tubes.
| 
| What about the etiquette of staying on topic? The only person who is
| OFFICIALLY allowed to change the subject matter of a thread is the OP.
| Sure some folks might make an off topic post here and there however i
| find it bombastically rude when folks just change a topic of thread
| they do not own.

You're labouring under a misapprehension. The OP doesn't "own" the
thread. Starting a thread on a public list is like throwing a party.
People are going to come. And talk, damn their impudence!

It is good to stay near the topic, but threads will inevitably drift
unless they're talking about something utterly trite. It is good of an
author to mark his/her departure from the main topic, should it be
significant, with a subject change. Or even a new thread.

| How would you like it if i came to your house

You can stop there, thanks.

You continue to confuse a cooperative anarchy with some kind of
stringent autocracy or heavily premoderated forum or something.
As with your docstring formatting opinions or your spaces-vs-tabs
opinions: mandating behaviour is a little pointless - it can't be
enforced, few directives are unambiguously one sidedly good and so
mandating stuff is divisive and will drive people away.

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> DoD#743
http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/

It's quite difficult to remind people that all this stuff was here for a
million years before people. So the idea that we are required to manage it is
ridiculous. What we are having to manage is us.
- Bill Ballantine, marine biologist

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#10054

sturlamolden wrote:

> Or should modern deskop apps be written with something completely
> different, such as HTML5?

I hope not! HTML is great for web pages, but not
everything should be a web page.

-- 
Greg

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#10165

Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:

>sturlamolden wrote:
>
>> Or should modern deskop apps be written with something completely
>> different, such as HTML5?
>
>I hope not! HTML is great for web pages, but not
>everything should be a web page.

I don't think your glibness is justified.  There is a legitimate appeal to
this notion.  The fact is that MANY APIs can be completely and adequately
described by HTML.  It provides a very natural separation of presentation
and behavior.  Without style sheets, you can describe simple APIs very
compactly and let the renderer do positioning.  With style sheets, you can
get very complete control over the look and feel.

This is very similar to what Microsoft has done with Windows Presentation
Foundation, except that they are using a more sophisticated XML DTD.
-- 
Tim Roberts, timr@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

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#10172

Tim Roberts wrote:
> Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> 
>>sturlamolden wrote:
>>
>>>Or should modern deskop apps be written with something completely
>>>different, such as HTML5?
>>
>>I hope not! HTML is great for web pages, but not
>>everything should be a web page.
> 
> I don't think your glibness is justified.  There is a legitimate appeal to
> this notion.  The fact is that MANY APIs can be completely and adequately
> described by HTML.

My brain raises a TypeError on that statement. According to
my understanding of the world, describing APIs is not something
that HTML does. (Or did you mean GUI rather than API?)

There might be some sense in using something HTML-like to
describe the layout of widgets in a GUI. But laying out
widgets is only a tiny part of what's involved in creating
an application with a GUI. You still need a GUI toolkit to
provide the widgets being laid out, and application code
behind that to provide the desired functionality.

> With style sheets, you can
> get very complete control over the look and feel.

CSS is designed for graphic artists who want complete
control over every aspect of appearance. Again, this is
(arguably) okay for web pages, but I don't think it
applies to GUI applications. You *don't* want every
application looking completely different from every other
on the whim of the author -- quite the opposite.

-- 
Greg

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#10184

On 23Jul2011 22:21, Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
| Tim Roberts wrote:
| >Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
| >>sturlamolden wrote:
| >>>Or should modern deskop apps be written with something completely
| >>>different, such as HTML5?
| >>
| >>I hope not! HTML is great for web pages, but not
| >>everything should be a web page.
| >
| >I don't think your glibness is justified.  There is a legitimate appeal to
| >this notion.  The fact is that MANY APIs can be completely and adequately
| >described by HTML.
[...]
| There might be some sense in using something HTML-like to
| describe the layout of widgets in a GUI. But laying out
| widgets is only a tiny part of what's involved in creating
| an application with a GUI. You still need a GUI toolkit to
| provide the widgets being laid out, and application code
| behind that to provide the desired functionality.

Sure, but if a suitable API is presented for javascript to hook into
over HTTP an HTML widget kit isn't an unreasonable thing to build.
And then you have the cross platform nirvana. Except for the browsers'
various differences and bugs etc etc...

| >With style sheets, you can
| >get very complete control over the look and feel.
| 
| CSS is designed for graphic artists who want complete
| control over every aspect of appearance. Again, this is
| (arguably) okay for web pages, but I don't think it
| applies to GUI applications. You *don't* want every
| application looking completely different from every other
| on the whim of the author -- quite the opposite.

You can override site specific CSS in the firefox browser, possibly
others. There are extensions to make it easier rather than mega-awkward
and undocumented. It is still a bit of a dobge, in not small part
because CSS lacks a "not" - you can't say "style everything except
blah", which means you have to enumerate a bazillion combinations and
you're still playing guessing games.

So, yes, the every author's look'n'feel is gratuitously different chaos
still applies :-(

Cheers,
-- 
Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> DoD#743
http://www.cskk.ezoshosting.com/cs/

But what ... is it good for?
      --Engineer at the Advanced Computing Systems Division of IBM,
        1968,  commenting on the microchip.

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