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Article on the future of Python

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  Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-25 09:15 +0100
    Re: Article on the future of Python Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2012-09-25 09:26 -0400
      Re: Article on the future of Python Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-09-25 09:44 -0400
      Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-25 15:35 +0000
        Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 01:48 +1000
        Re: Article on the future of Python Ramchandra Apte <maniandram01@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 02:28 -0700
          Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 05:39 -0400
        Re: Article on the future of Python Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2012-09-26 09:30 -0400
          Re: Article on the future of Python Matej Cepl <mcepl@redhat.com> - 2012-09-27 00:44 +0200
          Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 00:44 +0000
            Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 15:37 +1000
              Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 06:01 +0000
                Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 16:08 +1000
                  Re: Article on the future of Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-09-27 13:59 +0000
                    Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 00:32 +1000
                      Re: Article on the future of Python Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2012-09-28 01:22 +0000
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Jason Friedman <jason@powerpull.net> - 2012-09-27 21:05 -0600
                        Re: Article on the future of Python "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com> - 2012-09-27 21:14 -0600
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2012-09-27 22:37 -0500
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Greg Donald <gdonald@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 22:50 -0500
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Greg Donald <gdonald@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 23:12 -0500
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 14:37 +1000
                          Re: Article on the future of Python rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-09-28 08:52 -0700
                          Re: Article on the future of Python rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-09-28 08:52 -0700
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-09-28 10:31 -0400
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-29 00:58 +1000
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 09:14 -0600
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-29 01:20 +1000
                Re: Article on the future of Python Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 12:20 +0300
      Re: Article on the future of Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-09-25 12:13 -0400
      Re: Article on the future of Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-25 10:27 -0700
    Re: Article on the future of Python "Martin P. Hellwig" <martin.hellwig@gmail.com> - 2012-09-25 06:56 -0700
    Re: Article on the future of Python "Martin P. Hellwig" <martin.hellwig@gmail.com> - 2012-09-25 06:56 -0700
      Re: Article on the future of Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-09-25 18:25 +0000
        Re: Article on the future of Python 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-09-25 16:34 -0700
          Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-25 23:35 -0700
            Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-26 07:23 +0000
              Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 02:31 -0700
                Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 19:55 +1000
                  Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 07:19 -0700
                    Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 00:24 +1000
                      Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 07:50 -0700
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 00:56 +1000
                          Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 08:17 -0700
                          Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 08:17 -0700
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 16:08 +0100
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 01:18 +1000
                          Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 08:45 -0700
                          Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 08:45 -0700
                            Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 09:33 +0000
                              Re: Article on the future of Python Alex Strickland <sscc@mweb.co.za> - 2012-09-27 12:43 +0200
                              Re: Article on the future of Python Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 15:46 +0300
                              Re: Article on the future of Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 09:06 -0600
                              Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 17:03 +0100
                              Re: Article on the future of Python Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 20:17 +0300
                                Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-27 12:09 -0700
                                  Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 21:16 +0100
                                  Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 08:00 +1000
                                Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-27 12:09 -0700
                              Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-27 15:08 -0400
                              Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-28 10:16 +0100
                      Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 07:50 -0700
                  Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 07:19 -0700
                    Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 00:36 +0000
                  Re: Article on the future of Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-26 09:52 -0700
                    Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 03:04 +1000
                      Re: Article on the future of Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-26 10:32 -0700
                    Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 11:35 -0700
                Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 14:21 +0100
              Re: Article on the future of Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 09:53 -0600
                Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 09:18 -0700
                Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 09:18 -0700
            Re: Article on the future of Python Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-09-26 00:17 -0700
            Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 03:39 -0400
            Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 17:44 +1000
            Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 04:11 -0400
            Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-26 04:13 -0400
              Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 05:19 -0700
                Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 23:43 +1000
                Re: Article on the future of Python Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-09-26 09:08 -0700
                Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-26 19:24 -0400
              Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 05:19 -0700
            Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 09:34 +0100
              Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 05:17 -0700
                Re: Article on the future of Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 17:14 -0700
                  Re: Article on the future of Python Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2012-09-27 01:37 +0000
              Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 05:17 -0700
            Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 09:37 +0100
            Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 18:44 +1000
            Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 04:45 -0400
            Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 04:47 -0400
            Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 10:01 +0100
              Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 00:40 +0000
                Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 02:10 +0100
            Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 05:09 -0400
            Re: Article on the future of Python "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com> - 2012-09-26 07:31 -0600
            Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 14:43 +0100
            Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 23:51 +1000
            Re: Article on the future of Python Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-09-26 09:05 -0700
            Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-26 16:27 -0400
              Re: Article on the future of Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 18:38 -0700
            Re: Fwd: Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-26 19:29 -0400
            Re: Fwd: Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 09:42 +1000
        Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-26 00:54 +0000
          Re: Article on the future of Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-25 18:04 -0700
            Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 14:10 +1000
              Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-26 05:16 +0000
                Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 16:02 +1000
                  Re: Article on the future of Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-25 23:09 -0700
            Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 09:32 +0100
            Re: Article on the future of Python Hannu Krosing <hannu@krosing.net> - 2012-09-26 12:01 +0200
              Re: Article on the future of Python Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-09-26 09:01 -0400
                Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 14:28 +0100
                Re: Article on the future of Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-09-26 13:22 -0400
    Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 06:13 +0000
      Re: Article on the future of Python Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 08:11 -0400
        Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 14:25 +0000
          Re: Article on the future of Python Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 12:16 -0400
            Re: Article on the future of Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 17:59 -0700
              Re: Article on the future of Python Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 14:50 -0400
                Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-29 03:07 +0000
          Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 17:45 +0100
          Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 02:49 +1000
          Re: Article on the future of Python Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 12:50 -0400
          Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 17:58 +0100
          Re: Article on the future of Python Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-09-27 09:53 -0700
          Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-27 15:32 -0400
        Re: Article on the future of Python Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2012-09-28 08:06 +0100
          Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 03:22 -0400
        Re: Article on the future of Python rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 05:08 -0700
          Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-28 12:54 +0000
            Re: Article on the future of Python rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 06:14 -0700
              Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-28 16:33 +0000
      Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 17:47 +0100
        Re: Article on the future of Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 17:59 -0700

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#30043 — Article on the future of Python

Hi all,

I though this might be of interest.

http://www.ironfroggy.com/software/i-am-worried-about-the-future-of-python

-- 
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

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#30078

On 9/25/12 4:15 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I though this might be of interest.
>
> http://www.ironfroggy.com/software/i-am-worried-about-the-future-of-python
>

Interesting article, but the comments of those who say "the only 
language I need to know is Python" strike me as a bit limited. If this 
is the case, then Python can never be moved forward, because it is 
written in C.

I program in Python, C, Objective C, JavaScript, Tcl, AppleScript, and 
I'm learning Perl. Python could *not* handle all the domains I target in 
my projects. For instance: if I want to access Mac-native functionality 
via Tkinter that isn't currently available in the library, I have to 
drill down into C or Objective-C, write a wrapper that hooks in to the 
primitives via Tcl's C API, then possibly write some additional Tcl code 
to provide a cleaner interface, *then* write some kind of Python wrapper 
that I can access in my Tkinter app.

I can understand loving the language and wanting to work just in the 
language, but it's another thing entirely to call Python the One 
Language to Rule Them All. (That's C, because all other languages are 
implemented in it. :-) )

--Kevin

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com

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#30080

In article <k3sbdr$jce$1@dont-email.me>,
 Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> wrote:

> the comments of those who say "the only 
> language I need to know is Python" strike me as a bit limited.

I have been convinced that "X is the only language I need to know", for 
many different values of X over the years.

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#30101

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 09:26:19 -0400, Kevin Walzer wrote:

> On 9/25/12 4:15 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I though this might be of interest.
>>
>> http://www.ironfroggy.com/software/i-am-worried-about-the-future-of-
>> python
>>
>>
> Interesting article, but the comments of those who say "the only
> language I need to know is Python" strike me as a bit limited. If this
> is the case, then Python can never be moved forward, because it is
> written in C.

Incorrect. 

IronPython in C#. Jython is written in Java. CLPython is written in Lisp. 
Berp and HoPe are written in Haskell. Nuitka is written in C++. Skulpt is 
written in Javascript. Vyper is written in Ocaml. PyPy is written in 
RPython.

Some of those Python compilers are obsolete, unmaintained or 
experimental. Others are not. But either way, it is certainly not true 
that Python is written in C. One specific Python compiler happens to be 
written in C, that is all.


> I program in Python, C, Objective C, JavaScript, Tcl, AppleScript, and
> I'm learning Perl. Python could *not* handle all the domains I target in
> my projects. 

Unless you are writing code that operates on the bare metal (device 
drivers, operating system kernels) Python probably *could*, even if it 
doesn't *yet*. PyPy now allows you to write real-time video processing 
filters in pure Python:

http://morepypy.blogspot.com.au/2011/07/realtime-image-processing-in-python.html


And if performance was irrelevant, you could even write an operating 
system in Python. A really slow, painful operating system, but still an 
operating system.

Given a sufficiently smart compiler, and sufficiently powerful libraries, 
or sufficiently low expectations, pretty much any programming language 
can do anything any other language can do. Almost all of them are Turing 
complete.

But of course, in practice languages differ in their power and 
capabilities.


> For instance: if I want to access Mac-native functionality
> via Tkinter that isn't currently available in the library, 

That "isn't currently available" part is precisely what I'm talking 
about. Just because it's not available now doesn't mean it can't be made 
available.


> I can understand loving the language and wanting to work just in the
> language, but it's another thing entirely to call Python the One
> Language to Rule Them All. (That's C, because all other languages are
> implemented in it. :-) )

I see your smiley, but that is factually incorrect. Not all compilers or 
interpreters are written in C. Many languages are self-hosted, that is, 
they are written in themselves, using some clever bootstrapping 
techniques. C is neither the most powerful, the oldest, the best, or the 
most fundamental language around.


-- 
Steven

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#30102

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 1:35 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> I see your smiley, but that is factually incorrect. Not all compilers or
> interpreters are written in C. Many languages are self-hosted, that is,
> they are written in themselves, using some clever bootstrapping
> techniques. C is neither the most powerful, the oldest, the best, or the
> most fundamental language around.

Many compiled languages are bootstrapped, yes, but interpreted
languages less often so. And the bulk of implementations of the bulk
of interpreted languages seem to be implemented in C. But that's
largely because the bulk of Unix software is written in either C or a
high level language.

ChrisA

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#30174

On Tuesday, 25 September 2012 21:05:01 UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 09:26:19 -0400, Kevin Walzer wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > On 9/25/12 4:15 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> 
> >> Hi all,
> 
> >>
> 
> >> I though this might be of interest.
> 
> >>
> 
> >> http://www.ironfroggy.com/software/i-am-worried-about-the-future-of-
> 
> >> python
> 
> >>
> 
> >>
> 
> > Interesting article, but the comments of those who say "the only
> 
> > language I need to know is Python" strike me as a bit limited. If this
> 
> > is the case, then Python can never be moved forward, because it is
> 
> > written in C.
> 
> 
> 
> Incorrect. 
> 
> 
> 
> IronPython in C#. Jython is written in Java. CLPython is written in Lisp. 
> 
> Berp and HoPe are written in Haskell. Nuitka is written in C++. Skulpt is 
> 
> written in Javascript. Vyper is written in Ocaml. PyPy is written in 
> 
> RPython.
> 
> 
> 
> Some of those Python compilers are obsolete, unmaintained or 
> 
> experimental. Others are not. But either way, it is certainly not true 
> 
> that Python is written in C. One specific Python compiler happens to be 
> 
> written in C, that is all.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > I program in Python, C, Objective C, JavaScript, Tcl, AppleScript, and
> 
> > I'm learning Perl. Python could *not* handle all the domains I target in
> 
> > my projects. 
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you are writing code that operates on the bare metal (device 
> 
> drivers, operating system kernels) Python probably *could*, even if it 
> 
> doesn't *yet*. PyPy now allows you to write real-time video processing 
> 
> filters in pure Python:
> 
> 
> 
> http://morepypy.blogspot.com.au/2011/07/realtime-image-processing-in-python.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if performance was irrelevant, you could even write an operating 
> 
> system in Python. A really slow, painful operating system, but still an 
> 
> operating system.
> 
That's what I plan to do.
But it will be converted to C/C++
> 
> 
> Given a sufficiently smart compiler, and sufficiently powerful libraries, 
> 
> or sufficiently low expectations, pretty much any programming language 
> 
> can do anything any other language can do. Almost all of them are Turing 
> 
> complete.
> 
> 
> 
> But of course, in practice languages differ in their power and 
> 
> capabilities.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > For instance: if I want to access Mac-native functionality
> 
> > via Tkinter that isn't currently available in the library, 
> 
> 
> 
> That "isn't currently available" part is precisely what I'm talking 
> 
> about. Just because it's not available now doesn't mean it can't be made 
> 
> available.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > I can understand loving the language and wanting to work just in the
> 
> > language, but it's another thing entirely to call Python the One
> 
> > Language to Rule Them All. (That's C, because all other languages are
> 
> > implemented in it. :-) )
> 
> 
> 
> I see your smiley, but that is factually incorrect. Not all compilers or 
> 
> interpreters are written in C. Many languages are self-hosted, that is, 
> 
> they are written in themselves, using some clever bootstrapping 
> 
> techniques. C is neither the most powerful, the oldest, the best, or the 
> 
> most fundamental language around.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Steven

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#30176

>>
>> they are written in themselves, using some clever bootstrapping
>>
>> techniques. C is neither the most powerful, the oldest, the best, or the
>>
>> most fundamental language around.
Would you recommend Assembly, because C just becomea macros of
Assembly, or better yet machine language, which is line for line
procedural Assembly for the processor instruction set working in line
with the OS..

-- 
Best Regards,
David Hutto
CEO: http://www.hitwebdevelopment.com

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#30199

On 9/25/12 11:35 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> IronPython in C#. Jython is written in Java. CLPython is written in Lisp.
> Berp and HoPe are written in Haskell. Nuitka is written in C++. Skulpt is
> written in Javascript. Vyper is written in Ocaml. PyPy is written in
> RPython.
>
> Some of those Python compilers are obsolete, unmaintained or
> experimental. Others are not. But either way, it is certainly not true
> that Python is written in C. One specific Python compiler happens to be
> written in C, that is all.

Apart from IronPython, what constituency do these alternative 
implementations of Python have that would raise them above the level of 
interesting experiments?

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com

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#30244

On 26/09/12 15:30, Kevin Walzer wrote:
> Apart from IronPython, what constituency do these alternative
and Jython ... that is widely used in the Java server world
> implementations of Python have that would raise them above the level of
> interesting experiments?

Matěj

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#30259

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 09:30:19 -0400, Kevin Walzer wrote:

> On 9/25/12 11:35 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> IronPython in C#. Jython is written in Java. CLPython is written in
>> Lisp. Berp and HoPe are written in Haskell. Nuitka is written in C++.
>> Skulpt is written in Javascript. Vyper is written in Ocaml. PyPy is
>> written in RPython.
>>
>> Some of those Python compilers are obsolete, unmaintained or
>> experimental. Others are not. But either way, it is certainly not true
>> that Python is written in C. One specific Python compiler happens to be
>> written in C, that is all.
> 
> Apart from IronPython, what constituency do these alternative
> implementations of Python have that would raise them above the level of
> interesting experiments?

The "Big Four" are CPython, Jython, IronPython and PyPy. Possibly "Big 
Five" if you include Stackless, although I'm not quite sure just how big 
(popular) Stackless actually is. It's certainly old and venerable, and 
actively maintained. If you've played EVE Online, you've seen Stackless 
in action.

Jython has a big constituency in Java shops. I can't tell you much about 
that because I don't use Java.

PyPy is, well, PyPy is amazing, if you have the hardware to run it. It is 
an optimizing Python JIT compiler, and it can consistently demonstrate 
speeds of about 10 times the speed of CPython, which puts it in the same 
ballpark as native code generated by Java compilers. For some (admittedly 
artificially narrow) tasks it can beat optimized C code. It's fast enough 
for real time video processing, depending on the algorithm used.

While PyPy is still a work in progress, and is not anywhere near as 
mature as (say) gcc or clang, it should be considered production-ready.

I expect that, within the decade, PyPy will become "the" standard Python 
compiler and CPython will be relegated to "merely" the reference 
implementation.



-- 
Steven

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#30272

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> PyPy is, well, PyPy is amazing, if you have the hardware to run it. It is
> an optimizing Python JIT compiler, and it can consistently demonstrate
> speeds of about 10 times the speed of CPython, which puts it in the same
> ballpark as native code generated by Java compilers. For some (admittedly
> artificially narrow) tasks it can beat optimized C code. It's fast enough
> for real time video processing, depending on the algorithm used.
>
> While PyPy is still a work in progress, and is not anywhere near as
> mature as (say) gcc or clang, it should be considered production-ready.

That's all very well, but unless I have my facts badly wrong, PyPy is
only compatible with Python 2 - right? I'd much rather have full
Unicode support etc etc etc than the coolness of
Python-implemented-in-Python, even with a significant performance
boost.

> I expect that, within the decade, PyPy will become "the" standard Python
> compiler and CPython will be relegated to "merely" the reference
> implementation.

Assuming it manages to catch up with Py3, which a decade makes
entirely possible, this I can well believe. And while we're sounding
all hopeful, maybe Python will be on popularity par with every other P
in the classic LAMP stack. *That* would be a Good Thing.

ChrisA

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#30273

On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:37:35 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:44 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:

>> While PyPy is still a work in progress, and is not anywhere near as
>> mature as (say) gcc or clang, it should be considered production-ready.
> 
> That's all very well, but unless I have my facts badly wrong, PyPy is
> only compatible with Python 2 - right? 

At the moment, yes. Support for Python 3 is in active development.

http://morepypy.blogspot.com/2012/09/py3k-status-update-6.html


[...]
> Assuming it manages to catch up with Py3, which a decade makes entirely
> possible, this I can well believe. And while we're sounding all hopeful,
> maybe Python will be on popularity par with every other P in the classic
> LAMP stack. *That* would be a Good Thing.

Given how Perl has slipped in the last decade or so, that would be a step 
backwards for Python :-P



-- 
Steven

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#30274

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:37:35 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> Assuming it manages to catch up with Py3, which a decade makes entirely
>> possible, this I can well believe. And while we're sounding all hopeful,
>> maybe Python will be on popularity par with every other P in the classic
>> LAMP stack. *That* would be a Good Thing.
>
> Given how Perl has slipped in the last decade or so, that would be a step
> backwards for Python :-P

LAMP usually means PHP these days. There's a lot of that around.

ChrisA

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#30293

On 2012-09-27, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>
>> Given how Perl has slipped in the last decade or so, that would be a step
>> backwards for Python :-P
>
> LAMP usually means PHP these days. There's a lot of that around.

Yea, unfortunately.  What a mess of a language.  I recently had to
learn enough PHP to make some changes to a web site we had done by an
outside contractor.  PHP feels like it was designed by taking a
half-dozen other languages, chopping them into bits and then pulling
random features/syntax/semantics at random from the various different
piles.  Those bits where then stuck together with duct tape and bubble
gum and called PHP...

As one of the contractors who wrote some of the PHP said: "PHP is like
the worst parts of shell, Perl, and Java all combined into one
language!"

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Did something bad
                                  at               happen or am I in a
                              gmail.com            drive-in movie??

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#30295

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 11:59 PM, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 2012-09-27, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Given how Perl has slipped in the last decade or so, that would be a step
>>> backwards for Python :-P
>>
>> LAMP usually means PHP these days. There's a lot of that around.
>
> Yea, unfortunately.  What a mess of a language.  I recently had to
> learn enough PHP to make some changes to a web site we had done by an
> outside contractor.  PHP feels like it was designed by taking a
> half-dozen other languages, chopping them into bits and then pulling
> random features/syntax/semantics at random from the various different
> piles.  Those bits where then stuck together with duct tape and bubble
> gum and called PHP...
>
> As one of the contractors who wrote some of the PHP said: "PHP is like
> the worst parts of shell, Perl, and Java all combined into one
> language!"

I can't remember where I read it, and I definitely don't know if it's
accurate to current thinking, but the other day I found a quote
purporting to be from the creator of PHP saying that he didn't care
about memory leaks, just restart Apache periodically. It's definitely
true of most PHP scripts that they're unconcerned about resource
leakage, on the assumption that everything'll get cleared out at the
end of a page render. PHP seems to encourage sloppiness.

ChrisA

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#30345

On Fri, 28 Sep 2012 00:32:58 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 11:59 PM, Grant Edwards
> <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2012-09-27, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 4:01 PM, Steven D'Aprano
>>> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Given how Perl has slipped in the last decade or so, that would be a
>>>> step backwards for Python :-P
>>>
>>> LAMP usually means PHP these days. There's a lot of that around.
>>
>> Yea, unfortunately.  What a mess of a language.  I recently had to
>> learn enough PHP to make some changes to a web site we had done by an
>> outside contractor.  PHP feels like it was designed by taking a
>> half-dozen other languages, chopping them into bits and then pulling
>> random features/syntax/semantics at random from the various different
>> piles.  Those bits where then stuck together with duct tape and bubble
>> gum and called PHP...
>>
>> As one of the contractors who wrote some of the PHP said: "PHP is like
>> the worst parts of shell, Perl, and Java all combined into one
>> language!"
> 
> I can't remember where I read it, and I definitely don't know if it's
> accurate to current thinking, but the other day I found a quote
> purporting to be from the creator of PHP saying that he didn't care
> about memory leaks, just restart Apache periodically. It's definitely
> true of most PHP scripts that they're unconcerned about resource
> leakage, on the assumption that everything'll get cleared out at the end
> of a page render. PHP seems to encourage sloppiness.

Fair enough, but it's the M in the LAMP stack I object to. I'd much 
rather have P.

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#30347

> Fair enough, but it's the M in the LAMP stack I object to. I'd much
> rather have P.

+1

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#30348

On 9/27/2012 9:05 PM, Jason Friedman wrote:
>> Fair enough, but it's the M in the LAMP stack I object to. I'd much
>> rather have P.
> +1


I know this isn't the list for database discussions, but I've never 
gotten a decent answer. I don't know much about either, so I'm kind of 
curious why postgresql over mysql?

-- 
Take care,
Ty
http://tds-solutions.net
The aspen project: a barebones light-weight mud engine:
http://code.google.com/p/aspenmud
He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave.

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#30349

> On 9/27/2012 9:05 PM, Jason Friedman wrote:
>>> Fair enough, but it's the M in the LAMP stack I object to. I'd much
>>> rather have P.
>> +1
>
>
> I know this isn't the list for database discussions, but I've never gotten a 
> decent answer. I don't know much about either, so I'm kind of curious why 
> postgresql over mysql?

I'll try not to get too OT... I had previously just used MySQL (and 
SQLite), but have been reaading some PostGres stuff lately. I took a look 
around and basically... you and I won't know or notice a difference 
probably ever. There's all sorts of crazy tweaks you can get for 
reliability, speed, and backups depending on what you use. So the only 
advice I can give on that is just learn to use both.

And even better yet, just use SQLAlchemy if you're ever touching a 
database from Python because it handles all the mucky SQL for you - you 
just define the ORM. (Hey look! A Python module!)

My $0.02
-Wayne

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#30352

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:14 PM, Littlefield, Tyler
<tyler@tysdomain.com> wrote:
> I know this isn't the list for database discussions, but I've never gotten a
> decent answer. I don't know much about either, so I'm kind of curious why
> postgresql over mysql?

MySQL is an open-source PRODUCT owned by a for-profit company.

PostgreSQL is an open-source PROJECT and is unowned.

A lot of the major technical differences are outlined here:

http://www.wikivs.com/wiki/MySQL_vs_PostgreSQL



-- 
Greg Donald

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