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New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough?

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  New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? mogul <morten.guldager@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 12:01 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? ian douglas <ian.douglas@iandouglas.com> - 2012-12-27 12:13 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Daniel Fetchinson <fetchinson@googlemail.com> - 2012-12-27 21:16 +0100
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2012-12-27 20:23 +0000
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? peter <pjmakey2@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 17:14 -0300
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-12-27 15:57 -0500
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2012-12-27 21:16 +0000
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2012-12-27 15:25 -0600
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 14:28 -0700
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 14:29 -0700
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Modulok <modulok@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 16:30 -0700
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2012-12-28 10:37 +1100
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 10:41 +1100
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? "TommyVee" <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> - 2012-12-27 20:09 -0500
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-12-27 20:37 -0500
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-12-28 04:15 +0000
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Jamie Paul Griffin <jamie@kode5.net> - 2012-12-28 06:51 +0000
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Yuvraj Sharma <aleastech@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 01:37 -0800
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Jamie Paul Griffin <jamie@kode5.net> - 2012-12-30 14:15 +0000
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-01-02 18:36 +0000
          Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Matty Sarro <msarro@gmail.com> - 2013-01-02 13:47 -0500
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 03:52 -0600
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 21:05 +1100
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Kwpolska <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 11:27 +0100
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? gst <g.starck@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 04:08 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? python培训 <51mmj.com@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 06:15 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 18:02 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-29 17:40 +1100
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Monte Milanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2012-12-29 09:44 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-30 05:07 +1100
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-12-29 14:52 -0500
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Monte Milanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2012-12-29 12:51 -0800
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-30 08:21 +1100
          Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-12-29 16:52 -0500
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2012-12-29 17:10 -0500
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-30 09:30 +1100
              Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-01-01 03:55 +0000
                Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-01-01 15:20 +1100
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2012-12-29 17:40 -0500
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-30 10:16 +1100
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-01-02 18:43 +0000
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-12-29 18:50 +0000
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Tim Johnson <tim@akwebsoft.com> - 2012-12-29 15:38 -0900
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-30 11:54 +1100
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2012-12-29 14:00 -0500
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-01-01 03:46 +0000
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-01-01 21:12 +1100
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-01-01 08:23 -0600
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-01-01 13:43 -0500
          Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-01-01 14:02 -0500
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-01-01 14:32 -0500
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-01-02 21:17 -0600
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-01-02 22:48 -0500
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-01-02 14:33 -0700
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-01-02 17:48 -0500
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-01-02 20:37 -0600
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Gisle Vanem <gvanem@broadpark.no> - 2013-01-03 10:59 +0100
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> - 2012-12-31 06:57 -0500
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Hans Mulder <hansmu@xs4all.nl> - 2012-12-31 13:35 +0100
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-01-01 09:46 +1100
          Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2013-01-04 09:34 +0200
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-01-05 02:34 +1100
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-01-04 10:59 -0600
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-01-01 09:54 +1100
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? xDog Walker <thudfoo@gmail.com> - 2012-12-31 16:13 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? jussij@zeusedit.com - 2013-01-01 16:12 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Ramchandra Apte <maniandram01@gmail.com> - 2013-01-01 21:10 -0800
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-01-02 21:20 -0600
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? jrodkeyjr@gmail.com - 2013-01-04 08:28 -0800

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#36005

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That's really a question for you - do you want the features of an IDE?
Aptana includes pydev, and is built on eclipse which is a great
swiss-army-knife IDE. If you like KISS, vim is an excellent choice. Go with
whichever you are more comfortable using.


On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 1:36 PM, Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> wrote:

> On 2012-12-30, Jamie Paul Griffin <jamie@kode5.net> wrote:
> > Stick with what you've been using for the last couple of
> > decades. These tools have stood the test of time for a good
> > reason: they're powerful, efficient and made for the task of
> > programming.
>
> There is a good Python plugin for Vim that will allow simple
> reindenting and a bunch of other cool cursor movement powers I
> don't even use. ctags will also work, though I've never really
> needed it.
>
> --
> Neil Cerutti
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

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#35683

On 2012.12.28 00:51, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
> The benefit of the tmux client (terminal multiplexer) is that I can see
> all the screens at the same time and quickly switch between them. I
> believe Linux has screen(1) which does the same thing. 

tmux is generally easily available for Linux, and these days, there's
really no reason to use screen unless you absolutely cannot use tmux for
some reason.

To answer the OP's question, it's mostly personal preference. Use
whatever makes you productive.
-- 
CPython 3.3.0 | Windows NT 6.2.9200.16461

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#35684

On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 8:52 PM, Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2012.12.28 00:51, Jamie Paul Griffin wrote:
>> The benefit of the tmux client (terminal multiplexer) is that I can see
>> all the screens at the same time and quickly switch between them. I
>> believe Linux has screen(1) which does the same thing.
>
> tmux is generally easily available for Linux, and these days, there's
> really no reason to use screen unless you absolutely cannot use tmux for
> some reason.

Hmm, interesting. I often use screen when I need a terminal on a
remote system (via ssh) and I'm mobile on my laptop, with periodic
connection dropouts. With screen(1), I can cope with that, but it's a
bit ugly at times.

*puts tmux on his "look into this some day" list*

ChrisA

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#35686

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 9:01 PM, mogul <morten.guldager@gmail.com> wrote:
> 'Aloha!
Hello!
> I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.

You are already awesome,

> Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.

and now you just became more awesome.  (sans the Kubuntu part, but I
do not care.)

> Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for me?

Do you really think that those Windows idiots know what they are
talking about?  It’s Windows, for fuck’s sake.  The only OS in the
market that does not give a shit about POSIX.  Windows does need an
IDE, then, because it is really hard to do anything useful without
one.  Sure, this mail was sent from Windows, but I am using it for
gaming purposes.  If I want to do some programming, Linux is the
proper environment.  For me, it is Arch Linux with KDE and Konsole,
running tabs of vim (with [python-mode][]) and ipython.  And other
useful tools (among others, Chrome with the docs.)

[python-mode]: https://github.com/klen/python-mode

> Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!

That is great news.

-- 
Kwpolska <http://kwpolska.tk>
stop html mail      | always bottom-post
www.asciiribbon.org | www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html
GPG KEY: 5EAAEA16

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#35687

Le jeudi 27 décembre 2012 21:01:16 UTC+1, mogul a écrit :
> 'Aloha!
> 

holà !

> 
> I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.
> 

About same than me, though I had not to use/work with perl for new projects, only in maintaining some existing stuffs in some previous jobs.


> 
> Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.
> 
> Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for me? 
> 

Obviously I have same comments than others ;) though I think it mainly depends on the project.. I do think/experience that big projects get some real advantage of advanced IDE, like eclipse/pycharm and others "big" python IDE. Now which one to use is mainly a matter of taste, as always.


> 
> Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing. 
> 

as others said: welcome to the club :)


> I should have made the switch much earlier!

Don't be afraid of the late switch : you'll very quickly make amazing stuffs with Python and anyway it's (always) better late than never and it could be better now than some few years ago (I begin to make the switch about 3-4 years ago and now I have the luck to work for a company where I'm 100% working with Python :)). 
Python3(.2+) effectively corrects some, I'd say, youth problems related to python2 and it's now quite highly deployed and about all majors libraries are already supporting it, if not they are about all on their way to do it sooner than later ;)

 
> /mogul %-)

good work/fun with Python,

greg.

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#35690

too much ide for python
PyCharm 
PyDev(Eclipse) 
Pyscripter 

Sublime Text 
TextMate UliPad
Vim

for beginner best choice    idle

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#35729

On Thu, Dec 27, 2012 at 12:01:16PM -0800, mogul wrote:
> 'Aloha!
> 
> I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.
> 
> Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.
> 
> Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for me? 
> 
> Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!
> 
> /mogul %-)

I only use vim for everything.  IDEs just seem to get in my way.

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#35742

On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 1:02 PM, Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com> wrote:
> I only use vim for everything.  IDEs just seem to get in my way.

I've just (like ten minutes ago) come across a perfect example of what
makes an IDE useful. My mother maintains a collection of documents
(book indexes, historical records, catalogs of items the society owns,
etc) in a word processor called DeScribe. She just wanted to add a
plain text file to the collection, such that she can search it for a
text string (it's an OCR transcription of an old book, I think), and
put it into DeScribe even though it doesn't need any of its
facilities, just so it'd be there with all her others. An IDE is the
right thing for her. For me, though, it's no value.

ChrisA

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#35760

On 12/27/2012 12:01 PM, mogul wrote:

> I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained
> on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.

> Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do,
> or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20
> years too for me?

If you've been using vi/vim happily, then I'd assume you're fully 
comfortable setting it up to do what ever you need.  In that case... I'd 
say stick with what you know.

Me, I have less 'invested' in any particular editor or environment, and 
I certainly don't 'need' a lot of the fancy extras that a lot of IDEs 
have... but setting up pydev/eclipse or spyder takes care of pretty much 
all that I need/want easily, and I can setup a fresh environment the way 
I want inside five minutes with a mouse, fairly intuitively, without 
having to go digging through config scripts and the web and books and 
such to figure out what does what.  I'd rather spend that time working 
on projects, not 'programming' my text editor.  It's neat and all if it 
works for you, but just doesn't turn my crank, personally.

I know a lot is made of the speed with which things can be done with vim 
and similar pure text editors... which is all well and good, but 
somewhere in the not-so-distant past I saw a comment which hit home for 
me.  Maybe its because I'm still just a hobbyist when it comes to 
coding, but I spend far more time 'thinking' about what I'm doing than 
typing things in... so shaving a few seconds here and there are less 
important to me.

YMMV,

Monte

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#35761

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 4:44 AM, Monte Milanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe its because I'm still just a hobbyist when it comes to coding, but I
> spend far more time 'thinking' about what I'm doing than typing things in...
> so shaving a few seconds here and there are less important to me.

The value of a good editor isn't just in saving seconds. A couple of examples:

* Bracket matching helps to catch errors. Especially helpful when
combined with...
* Language-sensitive auto-indentation. If the editor detects that the
last line isn't complete (maybe you opened a parenthesis that you
didn't close...
    ... like that...)
and automatically indents, then you have instant feedback, before you
even run the program.
* Rapid location of relevant code. In SciTE, I can put the cursor on a
word and hit Ctrl-F3 to search for other occurrences of it - for
instance, put the cursor on a function name and find its definition.
(A strict declare-before-use policy helps here, as you can be fairly
sure that the first occurrence of that word will be the one you want.)
* Highlighting of comments and quoted strings, including all the
esoteric rules about line continuation and nesting.

Several of these points are more important to the polyglot than to
someone who uses only one language ever. For instance, in Python and
C, this would show an error, but in bash and PHP, it's not:

"asdf
qwer"

The difficulty of debugging varies directly with the time between
making and discovering the error. Finding a problem by compiling,
running, and using a program is good (better than it staying till
production); finding that same problem while you're in the
"compilation stage" is better; finding it right at that instant while
you're typing makes the correction trivial. That's why spell-checkers
have migrated from "press Ctrl-Q to check this document" to "red
squiggly lines underneath your text if the computer thinks it's
wrong". (That said, the number of spelling errors in published
documents hasn't gone down since red squigglies were invented, so
instant feedback isn't a panacea!)

Of course, editors are as much a matter of taste as they are science...

ChrisA

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#35769

Monte Milanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Maybe its because I'm still just a hobbyist when it comes to coding, but I
> > spend far more time 'thinking' about what I'm doing than typing things in...

If more "professional" programmers spent more time thinking and less 
type typing, the world would be a better place.  Keep doing what you're 
doing.  Really. 

Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
[regarding 
> Bracket matching
> Language-sensitive auto-indentation
> and automatically indents

Yeah, what he said, plus syntax coloring.  And keyword highlighting.  
And autocompletion of variable names.

And parsing of error messages.

I'll pause a moment to let that sink in.  Grok the fullness of just how 
awesome a feature it is.

In emacs, for example. I'll do C-C M (which I have bound to M-X 
Compile).  This runs a command and captures the output in a buffer.  If 
the output happens to contain something like:

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File 
"/home/roy/production/python/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/nose/case.
py", line 197, in runTest
    self.test(*self.arg)
  File "/home/roy/songza/api2/test_api2.py", line 16, in test_get_api
    data = requests.get(url('api/v2/')).json
  File "/home/roy/songza/api2/test_common.py", line 13, in url
    assert route.startswith('/')
AssertionError

emacs will parse that, highlight the filenames and line numbers and if I 
type M-`, it'll take me to the line of the next error (including opening 
the file if it's not already open).

I assume other smart editors have similar capabilities.  Different tools 
have different combinations of these, or slightly different 
implementations.  Find one you like and learn all of it's capabilities.  
It makes a huge difference in how productive you are.

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#35778

On 12/29/2012 11:52 AM, Roy Smith wrote:

> Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> [regarding
>> Bracket matching
>> Language-sensitive auto-indentation
>> and automatically indents
>
> Yeah, what he said, plus syntax coloring.  And keyword highlighting.
> And autocompletion of variable names.

I'll probably get dog-piled by the vim/emacs folks again here... but 
isn't that something most decent text editors do?


On 12/29/2012 11:52 AM, Roy Smith wrote:
>
> And parsing of error messages.
>
> I'll pause a moment to let that sink in.  Grok the fullness of just how
> awesome a feature it is.
>
> In emacs, for example. I'll do C-C M (which I have bound to M-X
> Compile).  This runs a command and captures the output in a buffer.  If
> the output happens to contain something like:
>
> Traceback (most recent call last):
>    File
> "/home/roy/production/python/local/lib/python2.7/site-packages/nose/case.
> py", line 197, in runTest
>      self.test(*self.arg)
>    File "/home/roy/songza/api2/test_api2.py", line 16, in test_get_api
>      data = requests.get(url('api/v2/')).json
>    File "/home/roy/songza/api2/test_common.py", line 13, in url
>      assert route.startswith('/')
> AssertionError
>
> emacs will parse that, highlight the filenames and line numbers and if I
> type M-`, it'll take me to the line of the next error (including opening
> the file if it's not already open).
>
> I assume other smart editors have similar capabilities.  Different tools
> have different combinations of these, or slightly different
> implementations.  Find one you like and learn all of it's capabilities.
> It makes a huge difference in how productive you are.
>


While I probably don't use the vast majority of the 'fancy' features of 
most IDEs - most of what I do barely requires any real 'project 
manangement'... there are a couple things that I've gotten *very* used 
to with an IDE.

One is having it run pylint and pep8 checks against code, display the 
output in a friendly format with links straight to the offending items 
and even displaying colored carats in the gutter region and 
high-lighting them.

The other is having it parse my imports, and use them for the 
'auto-complete' aka 'code intelligence' features - and not just the 
standard library stuff, but also GUI toolkits like PyQt4.

I'm pretty sure those things can be done, or something fairly close at 
least, in editors like vim or emacs... but the few times I looked into 
it for vim, it was enough to send me running back to Eclipse/PyDev, even 
if it is kind of an 800lb gorilla otherwise.

It's still on my 'one of these days' list of things to do, though ;)

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#35782

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 6:52 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> [regarding
>> Bracket matching
>> Language-sensitive auto-indentation
>> and automatically indents
>
> Yeah, what he said, plus syntax coloring.  And keyword highlighting.
> And autocompletion of variable names.

Syntax coloring I kinda touched on in different pieces; keyword
highlighting isn't, imho, all that important. Apart from reminding you
that the variable name you planned to use is an obscure keyword, it
doesn't save all that much time. Auto-complete is handy, but not
critical.

> And parsing of error messages.
>
> I'll pause a moment to let that sink in.  Grok the fullness of just how
> awesome a feature it is.

And how glaring an omission from my list. Yes. This one *definitely*
belongs there. Though unlike most of the other examples, it's not as
language-specific; you can cover a huge number of utilities by simply
recognizing:

filename:line: message

Coupled with a helpful C compiler, this lets you jump around pretty
easily. For instance, gcc will (if I recall correctly - haven't had to
use this feature in a while, something to do with writing more code in
Python and Pike than C, but anyway), if the arguments to a function
mismatch, show error lines highlighting both the invocation *and* the
declaration, so you can quickly compare (even if they're in different
files).

> emacs will parse that, highlight the filenames and line numbers and if I
> type M-`, it'll take me to the line of the next error (including opening
> the file if it's not already open).
>
> I assume other smart editors have similar capabilities.

Yeah, SciTE has F4 and Shift-F4 to cycle forwards/backwards through
messages, and I expect it's pretty much standard among editors that
can invoke external tools. It's extremely handy; not only errors from
compilation/execution, but things like a 'git grep -n' fit too.

ChrisA

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#35784

In article <mailman.1446.1356816523.29569.python-list@python.org>,
 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:

> Auto-complete is handy, but not critical.

You just wait until your finger joints get to be my age and tell me that 
auto-complete isn't critical :-)

> It's extremely handy; not only errors from
> compilation/execution, but things like a 'git grep -n' fit too.

Emacs has integrations with many version control systems.  Over the 
years, I've gone back and forth over whether I do my version control 
from within emacs or at the command line.

These days (with mercurial), I tend to do most vc-things at the command 
line.  But, I'm addicted to C-x v = (hg diff).  It diffs the current 
buffer against the last checked-in version of the file, and can take me 
directly to any particular changed line.

Again, I would imagine any decent editor these days would have something 
similar.  It just blows my mind when I see people editing program text 
with NotePad or some similar piece of crap.

Oh, yeah, one other thing I forgot.  You want to use an editor which can 
(preferably as something you can turn on and off easily) put line 
numbers down the left margin of the screen.  For solo editing, it's kind 
of silly.  But if you're doing any kind of pair programming, code 
review, or presentation to a group, it's invaluable.  Compare and 
contrast:

"In the big for loop, a couple of lines down, no, not there, the other 
for loop, yeah, now go down a couple of lines, no that's too far, back 
up one.  Yeah there.  On that line, why do you ..."

with:

"On line 647, why do you ..."

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#35785

On 12/29/2012 04:52 PM, Roy Smith wrote:
> "In the big for loop, a couple  of lines down, no, not there, the other
 > for loop, yeah, now go down a couple of lines, no that's too far, back
 > up one. Yeah there. On that line, why do you ..."
 >
 > with:
 >
 > "On line 647, why do you ..."


It's even better when it prints line # from top of screen, I have a
handy mapping that jumps directly to a line # and it's much easier to
type 23<space> or 9<space> when you jump around a lot.

  - mitya

-- 
Lark's Tongue Guide to Python: http://lightbird.net/larks/

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#35787

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 8:52 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <mailman.1446.1356816523.29569.python-list@python.org>,
>  Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It's extremely handy; not only errors from
>> compilation/execution, but things like a 'git grep -n' fit too.
>
> Emacs has integrations with many version control systems.  Over the
> years, I've gone back and forth over whether I do my version control
> from within emacs or at the command line.

My point was that it fits _many_ tools, without specific integration
with the tool. But yes, version control integration is a useful tool
(though not one I've personally made use of - I just run git commands
from the command line).

> Again, I would imagine any decent editor these days would have something
> similar.  It just blows my mind when I see people editing program text
> with NotePad or some similar piece of crap.

Yes. And then hopping over to Stack Overflow and trying to figure out
why their PHP script won't create HTTP headers. Combination of poor
language and poor editor...

> Oh, yeah, one other thing I forgot.  You want to use an editor which can
> (preferably as something you can turn on and off easily) put line
> numbers down the left margin of the screen.  For solo editing, it's kind
> of silly.  But if you're doing any kind of pair programming, code
> review, or presentation to a group, it's invaluable.  Compare and
> contrast:
>
> "In the big for loop, a couple of lines down, no, not there, the other
> for loop, yeah, now go down a couple of lines, no that's too far, back
> up one.  Yeah there.  On that line, why do you ..."
>
> with:
>
> "On line 647, why do you ..."

Absolutely! Though it's roughly as good to have the current cursor
position shown in a status line somewhere, and takes up less real
estate. But yes, vital to be able to see that. Even when I'm sitting
*right next to* my boss and communicating verbally, I'll talk about
the code by quoting line numbers. "Let me explain. (No, there is too
much. Let me sum up.) Pull up foobar dot jay ess and go to line
254-ish - see how the frobnosticator always gets called with a quuxed
argument?"

ChrisA

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#35874

On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 09:30:10 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

> Absolutely! Though it's roughly as good to have the current cursor
> position shown in a status line somewhere, and takes up less real
> estate. But yes, vital to be able to see that. Even when I'm sitting
> *right next to* my boss and communicating verbally, I'll talk about the
> code by quoting line numbers. "Let me explain. (No, there is too much.
> Let me sum up.) Pull up foobar dot jay ess and go to line 254-ish - see
> how the frobnosticator always gets called with a quuxed argument?"

I call shenanigans :-P

I don't expect that you keep in your head the line numbers (even the line 
numbers-ish) of interesting or pertinent features of your code, 
*especially* while the code is in active development and the line numbers 
are rapidly changing. I think it is far more likely that you keep 
function, class or method names in your head (after all, you are 
presumably reading and writing those names very often), and when you want 
to demonstrate some feature, you *first* look it up by higher-level 
object ("let's see the frob_quux function") to get the line number.

Assuming that your functions and methods are not obnoxiously huge, I 
think having a good class browser which lets you jump directly to 
functions or methods is *far* more useful than line numbers, in this 
context.


-- 
Steven

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#35877

On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 2:55 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Dec 2012 09:30:10 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> Absolutely! Though it's roughly as good to have the current cursor
>> position shown in a status line somewhere, and takes up less real
>> estate. But yes, vital to be able to see that. Even when I'm sitting
>> *right next to* my boss and communicating verbally, I'll talk about the
>> code by quoting line numbers. "Let me explain. (No, there is too much.
>> Let me sum up.) Pull up foobar dot jay ess and go to line 254-ish - see
>> how the frobnosticator always gets called with a quuxed argument?"
>
> I call shenanigans :-P
>
> I don't expect that you keep in your head the line numbers (even the line
> numbers-ish) of interesting or pertinent features of your code,
> *especially* while the code is in active development and the line numbers
> are rapidly changing. I think it is far more likely that you keep
> function, class or method names in your head (after all, you are
> presumably reading and writing those names very often), and when you want
> to demonstrate some feature, you *first* look it up by higher-level
> object ("let's see the frob_quux function") to get the line number.

Neither. You're correct that I don't memorize line numbers; but the
point of them was not to synchronize a screen with a brain, but to
synchronize two screens. So you're also correct that I look it up to
get the line number. But I'm not locating a function; if I wanted
that, I'd use that. No, I'm pointing to a specific line of code.

> Assuming that your functions and methods are not obnoxiously huge, I
> think having a good class browser which lets you jump directly to
> functions or methods is *far* more useful than line numbers, in this
> context.

They're not obnoxiously huge, but even twenty lines is too coarse when
you're trying to explain one line of code. Way too coarse. I want to
pinpoint what I'm talking about.

ChrisA

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#35788

On 12/29/2012 05:30 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> "In the big for loop, a couple of lines down, no, not there, the other
>> >for loop, yeah, now go down a couple of lines, no that's too far, back
>> >up one.  Yeah there.  On that line, why do you ..."
>> >
>> >with:
>> >
>> >"On line 647, why do you ..."
> Absolutely! Though it's roughly as good to have the current cursor
> position shown in a status line somewhere, and takes up less real
> estate.

I have to disagree -- if someone is standing next to you
and they want to refer to a particular line, they can't
really tell you "move the cursor to that line there, so I
can read its line number from status line and then tell
you I'm referring to that line".

  - mitya

-- 
Lark's Tongue Guide to Python: http://lightbird.net/larks/

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#35789

On Sun, Dec 30, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> wrote:
> On 12/29/2012 05:30 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>>
>>> "In the big for loop, a couple of lines down, no, not there, the other
>>> >for loop, yeah, now go down a couple of lines, no that's too far, back
>>> >up one.  Yeah there.  On that line, why do you ..."
>>> >
>>> >with:
>>> >
>>> >"On line 647, why do you ..."
>>
>> Absolutely! Though it's roughly as good to have the current cursor
>> position shown in a status line somewhere, and takes up less real
>> estate.
>
>
> I have to disagree -- if someone is standing next to you
> and they want to refer to a particular line, they can't
> really tell you "move the cursor to that line there, so I
> can read its line number from status line and then tell
> you I'm referring to that line".

Ah, to clarify: We have our separate computers in front of us. So when
I quote a line number, it's by looking at my screen, and allows him to
synchronize his display.

Of course, if you can afford the real estate, and as long as they're
not distracting, a column of numbers doesn't hurt.

ChrisA

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