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Article on the future of Python

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  Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-25 09:15 +0100
    Re: Article on the future of Python Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2012-09-25 09:26 -0400
      Re: Article on the future of Python Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-09-25 09:44 -0400
      Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-25 15:35 +0000
        Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 01:48 +1000
        Re: Article on the future of Python Ramchandra Apte <maniandram01@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 02:28 -0700
          Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 05:39 -0400
        Re: Article on the future of Python Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2012-09-26 09:30 -0400
          Re: Article on the future of Python Matej Cepl <mcepl@redhat.com> - 2012-09-27 00:44 +0200
          Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 00:44 +0000
            Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 15:37 +1000
              Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 06:01 +0000
                Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 16:08 +1000
                  Re: Article on the future of Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-09-27 13:59 +0000
                    Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 00:32 +1000
                      Re: Article on the future of Python Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2012-09-28 01:22 +0000
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Jason Friedman <jason@powerpull.net> - 2012-09-27 21:05 -0600
                        Re: Article on the future of Python "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com> - 2012-09-27 21:14 -0600
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2012-09-27 22:37 -0500
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Greg Donald <gdonald@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 22:50 -0500
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Greg Donald <gdonald@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 23:12 -0500
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 14:37 +1000
                          Re: Article on the future of Python rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-09-28 08:52 -0700
                          Re: Article on the future of Python rurpy@yahoo.com - 2012-09-28 08:52 -0700
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-09-28 10:31 -0400
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-29 00:58 +1000
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 09:14 -0600
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-29 01:20 +1000
                Re: Article on the future of Python Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 12:20 +0300
      Re: Article on the future of Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-09-25 12:13 -0400
      Re: Article on the future of Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-25 10:27 -0700
    Re: Article on the future of Python "Martin P. Hellwig" <martin.hellwig@gmail.com> - 2012-09-25 06:56 -0700
    Re: Article on the future of Python "Martin P. Hellwig" <martin.hellwig@gmail.com> - 2012-09-25 06:56 -0700
      Re: Article on the future of Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-09-25 18:25 +0000
        Re: Article on the future of Python 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-09-25 16:34 -0700
          Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-25 23:35 -0700
            Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-26 07:23 +0000
              Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 02:31 -0700
                Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 19:55 +1000
                  Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 07:19 -0700
                    Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 00:24 +1000
                      Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 07:50 -0700
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 00:56 +1000
                          Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 08:17 -0700
                          Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 08:17 -0700
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 16:08 +0100
                        Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 01:18 +1000
                          Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 08:45 -0700
                          Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 08:45 -0700
                            Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 09:33 +0000
                              Re: Article on the future of Python Alex Strickland <sscc@mweb.co.za> - 2012-09-27 12:43 +0200
                              Re: Article on the future of Python Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 15:46 +0300
                              Re: Article on the future of Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 09:06 -0600
                              Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 17:03 +0100
                              Re: Article on the future of Python Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 20:17 +0300
                                Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-27 12:09 -0700
                                  Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 21:16 +0100
                                  Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 08:00 +1000
                                Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-27 12:09 -0700
                              Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-27 15:08 -0400
                              Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-28 10:16 +0100
                      Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 07:50 -0700
                  Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 07:19 -0700
                    Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 00:36 +0000
                  Re: Article on the future of Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-26 09:52 -0700
                    Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 03:04 +1000
                      Re: Article on the future of Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-26 10:32 -0700
                    Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 11:35 -0700
                Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 14:21 +0100
              Re: Article on the future of Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 09:53 -0600
                Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 09:18 -0700
                Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 09:18 -0700
            Re: Article on the future of Python Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-09-26 00:17 -0700
            Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 03:39 -0400
            Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 17:44 +1000
            Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 04:11 -0400
            Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-26 04:13 -0400
              Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 05:19 -0700
                Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 23:43 +1000
                Re: Article on the future of Python Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-09-26 09:08 -0700
                Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-26 19:24 -0400
              Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 05:19 -0700
            Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 09:34 +0100
              Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 05:17 -0700
                Re: Article on the future of Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 17:14 -0700
                  Re: Article on the future of Python Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2012-09-27 01:37 +0000
              Re: Article on the future of Python wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2012-09-26 05:17 -0700
            Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 09:37 +0100
            Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 18:44 +1000
            Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 04:45 -0400
            Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 04:47 -0400
            Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 10:01 +0100
              Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 00:40 +0000
                Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 02:10 +0100
            Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 05:09 -0400
            Re: Article on the future of Python "Littlefield, Tyler" <tyler@tysdomain.com> - 2012-09-26 07:31 -0600
            Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 14:43 +0100
            Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 23:51 +1000
            Re: Article on the future of Python Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-09-26 09:05 -0700
            Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-26 16:27 -0400
              Re: Article on the future of Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 18:38 -0700
            Re: Fwd: Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-26 19:29 -0400
            Re: Fwd: Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 09:42 +1000
        Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-26 00:54 +0000
          Re: Article on the future of Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-25 18:04 -0700
            Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 14:10 +1000
              Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-26 05:16 +0000
                Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-26 16:02 +1000
                  Re: Article on the future of Python Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-09-25 23:09 -0700
            Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 09:32 +0100
            Re: Article on the future of Python Hannu Krosing <hannu@krosing.net> - 2012-09-26 12:01 +0200
              Re: Article on the future of Python Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-09-26 09:01 -0400
                Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-26 14:28 +0100
                Re: Article on the future of Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-09-26 13:22 -0400
    Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 06:13 +0000
      Re: Article on the future of Python Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 08:11 -0400
        Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-27 14:25 +0000
          Re: Article on the future of Python Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 12:16 -0400
            Re: Article on the future of Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 17:59 -0700
              Re: Article on the future of Python Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 14:50 -0400
                Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-29 03:07 +0000
          Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 17:45 +0100
          Re: Article on the future of Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 02:49 +1000
          Re: Article on the future of Python Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 12:50 -0400
          Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 17:58 +0100
          Re: Article on the future of Python Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-09-27 09:53 -0700
          Re: Article on the future of Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-09-27 15:32 -0400
        Re: Article on the future of Python Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2012-09-28 08:06 +0100
          Re: Article on the future of Python Dwight Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 03:22 -0400
        Re: Article on the future of Python rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 05:08 -0700
          Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-28 12:54 +0000
            Re: Article on the future of Python rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-09-28 06:14 -0700
              Re: Article on the future of Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-09-28 16:33 +0000
      Re: Article on the future of Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-09-27 17:47 +0100
        Re: Article on the future of Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-09-27 17:59 -0700

Page 6 of 7 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7  Next page →

#30268

On Sep 27, 6:27 am, Terry Reedy <tjre...@udel.edu> wrote:
> On 9/26/2012 4:45 AM, Dwight Hutto wrote:
> > my ego
> Uh, Dwight, he was not talking to you.

The irony, it is so rich :)

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#30248

On 9/26/2012 2:58 PM, Ian Kelly wrote:

> You know, usually when I see software decried as America-centric, it's
> because it doesn't support Unicode. This must be the first time I've
> seen that label applied to software that dares to *fully* support Unicode.

What is truly bizarre is the idea came from and much or most of the 
implementation was done by Europeans, not Americans.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#30249

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 9:29 AM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:
> On 9/26/2012 2:58 PM, Ian Kelly wrote:
>
>> You know, usually when I see software decried as America-centric, it's
>> because it doesn't support Unicode. This must be the first time I've
>> seen that label applied to software that dares to *fully* support Unicode.
>
>
> What is truly bizarre is the idea came from and much or most of the
> implementation was done by Europeans, not Americans.

I suppose that a system that supports only Latin-1 is therefore Italy-centric?

ChrisA

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#30136

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 18:25:30 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:

> On 2012-09-25, Martin P. Hellwig <martin.hellwig@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 25 September 2012 09:14:27 UTC+1, Mark Lawrence  wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
>>> I though this might be of interest.
>>> http://www.ironfroggy.com/software/i-am-worried-about-the-future-of-
python
> 
>> I glanced over the article but it seems to me another 'I am afraid this
>> is not the silver bullet I wanted it to be' article
> 
> Strange.  I didn't get that _at_all_ from the article.
> 
> To me it was expressing concern about what happens when the range of
> "niches" where Python is a good solution falls below a certain critical
> mass -- will the "Python Community" start to stagnate because it isn't
> attacting new developers in the quantity or diversity that it used to...

Sounds like the same thing to me. Since Python fails to capture all the 
development niches, it is not a silver bullet for programming, and 
therefore it won't attract the fresh new blood it needs, because everyone 
is programming for <insert list of niches here>.

I guarantee you that you could pick *any* language in existence, and find 
three areas that are dominated by other languages, which *somebody* could 
have convinced themselves is essential to the health of the community.

C? Once upon a time the C community was growing at a rapid rate because 
of the Unix admins that picked it up from day-to-day scripting tasks 
using c-shell. C became popular on the back of Unix, Unix has stagnated 
and people have moved on from csh to bash and other shells. The default 
shell on Linux is bash! C is in danger of no longer attracting new 
developers, and if you think the Python 2 -> 3 transition was disruptive, 
you should see what's happened in C: you have C, C++, Objective-C, C#, 
even C-- and D.

SQL? All the exciting, innovative work in databases is happening in the 
non-relational field of NoSQL languages. Without the ability to handle 
Google's database needs, and with a name like NoSQL attracting all the 
best and brightest database developers away from SQL, it's time to sell 
your shares in Oracle.

Java? More and more development is moving to HTML5 and Javascript. With 
the public's abandonment of the Java plugin for browsers, and schools 
moving towards Python and PHP as a first language, Java's days are 
numbered.

Cobol? Sure, eighty percent of the code in active use is written in 
Cobol. Sure, there are 200 times more Cobol transactions per day than 
Google searches -- about three quarters of *all* computer transactions 
are done using Cobol. But Cobol only gets used for such boring stuff as 
keeping your money safe in the bank. All the real innovation is in, well, 
everything except Cobol. The imminent demise of Cobol is predicted for 
1975^W 1980^W 1985^W 1990^W 1995^W 2005^W 2010^W 2015.



-- 
Steven

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#30139

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> writes:
> C? Once upon a time the C community was growing at a rapid rate
> because of the Unix admins that picked it up from day-to-day scripting
> tasks using c-shell.

Er, I think it was developers rather than admins back then... the
sysadmin languages were awk then Perl.

> SQL? All the exciting, innovative work in databases is happening in the 
> non-relational field of NoSQL languages.

Where have you been?  That was LAST week... 

  http://highscalability.com/blog/2012/9/24/google-spanners-most-surprising-revelation-nosql-is-out-and.html
  (shorter: http://tinyurl.com/8v3dzyr )

;-)

> More and more development is moving to HTML5 and Javascript.

Yes.  Python, Ruby, and Javascript are all pretty similar languages.
I'm pretty comfortable with Python so I don't feel much need to pursue
Ruby, and from the Ruby side the Python picture looks similar.
Javascript used to live mostly in browsers so it didn't come into the
question except for client-side web programmers.  But, web client
programming has gotten more ubiquitous than ever, and Javascript is
metastasizing to the desktop and server through things like node.js.  So
it may in fact put pressure on Python.

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#30141

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> SQL? ... it's time to sell your shares in Oracle.

Ehh, I wouldn't be investing in Oracle, but that's more because I
think free RDBMSes like PostgreSQL outshine it. And this is even more
true of MS SQL Server - this last week I've been researching options
for moving work's services to the cloud, and SQL Server licenses cost
ridiculous amounts (per month or per hour); what do you get for that
money that you can't get from Postgres?

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 11:04 AM, Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Yes.  Python, Ruby, and Javascript are all pretty similar languages.
> I'm pretty comfortable with Python so I don't feel much need to pursue
> Ruby, and from the Ruby side the Python picture looks similar.
> Javascript used to live mostly in browsers so it didn't come into the
> question except for client-side web programmers.  But, web client
> programming has gotten more ubiquitous than ever, and Javascript is
> metastasizing to the desktop and server through things like node.js.  So
> it may in fact put pressure on Python.

Well, Python, Ruby, and
JavaScript/Javascript/ECMAScript/etceterascript aren't what I'd call
"similar languages", except that they're all modern high level
languages. But they're all able to solve similar problems, which I
think is what you're saying here.

The flip side to node.js is pyjs. One lets you write your server in
Javascript... the other lets you write your client in Python. And
there are quite a few other options for writing browser scripts in
other languages. Is JS dead yet? Nope.

There's room in this world for a lot of languages.

ChrisA

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#30142

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:10:28 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

> The flip side to node.js is pyjs. 

After the ham-fisted, nasty way pyjamas project was hijacked this year, 
I'm not entirely sure I'd want to touch it with a fifty-foot pole.

http://technogems.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/pyjamas-hijacked.html

Any pajamas users here want to comment on the fallout? Is the project 
alive, dead, or walking dead?


-- 
Steven

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#30144

On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 3:16 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:10:28 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> The flip side to node.js is pyjs.
>
> After the ham-fisted, nasty way pyjamas project was hijacked this year,
> I'm not entirely sure I'd want to touch it with a fifty-foot pole.
>
> http://technogems.blogspot.com.au/2012/05/pyjamas-hijacked.html
>
> Any pajamas users here want to comment on the fallout? Is the project
> alive, dead, or walking dead?

That is true, but the concept is still around - that you can write
your code in some other language and compile to js. Personally, I'd
rather just write my js directly, and use Python to write Python code,
but I'm sufficiently multilingual to be able to do that. If you know
only 1-2 languages, there's (short-term) benefit in using them for
more tasks.

ChrisA

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#30145

Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes:
> That is true, but the concept is still around - that you can write
> your code in some other language and compile to js.

http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/The_JavaScript_Problem

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#30162

On 26/09/2012 05:10, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> SQL? ... it's time to sell your shares in Oracle.
>
> Ehh, I wouldn't be investing in Oracle, but that's more because I
> think free RDBMSes like PostgreSQL outshine it. And this is even more
> true of MS SQL Server - this last week I've been researching options
> for moving work's services to the cloud, and SQL Server licenses cost
> ridiculous amounts (per month or per hour); what do you get for that
> money that you can't get from Postgres?
>
> ChrisA
>

Maybe true but do free RDBMes have the sales and marketing budgets that 
effectively shot down Ingres?

-- 
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

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#30180

On 09/26/2012 10:32 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 26/09/2012 05:10, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 10:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano
>> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>>> SQL? ... it's time to sell your shares in Oracle.
>>
>> Ehh, I wouldn't be investing in Oracle, but that's more because I
>> think free RDBMSes like PostgreSQL outshine it. And this is even more
>> true of MS SQL Server - this last week I've been researching options
>> for moving work's services to the cloud, and SQL Server licenses cost
>> ridiculous amounts (per month or per hour); what do you get for that
>> money that you can't get from Postgres?
>>
>> ChrisA
>>
>
> Maybe true but do free RDBMes have the sales and marketing budgets
> that effectively shot down Ingres?
>
Nope. They don't have budget to shoot down Ingres.

Also, free RDBMs do not engage in dubious promise-and-dont-deliver-
then-ask-more-money sales policies that got Oracle kicked out of US
Government simplified buying processes.

You can get only so far using "sales". At some point you have to deliver.

Hannu

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#30192

In article <mailman.1421.1348653712.27098.python-list@python.org>,
 Hannu Krosing <hannu@krosing.net> wrote:

> You can get only so far using "sales". At some point you have to deliver.

But, by that time, the guy who closed the sale has already cashed his 
bonus check, bought his new BMW, and moved on to another company.

And around that time, some poor schmuck of a dev manager is telling his 
team what the sales guy sold.  And that they have 12 weeks to design, 
build, and deliver it.

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#30198

On 26/09/2012 14:01, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <mailman.1421.1348653712.27098.python-list@python.org>,
>   Hannu Krosing <hannu@krosing.net> wrote:
>
>> You can get only so far using "sales". At some point you have to deliver.
>
> But, by that time, the guy who closed the sale has already cashed his
> bonus check, bought his new BMW, and moved on to another company.
>
> And around that time, some poor schmuck of a dev manager is telling his
> team what the sales guy sold.  And that they have 12 weeks to design,
> build, and deliver it.
>

How long did you just say???  I promised it in 8 weeks, not 12 you 
complete moron :)

-- 
Cheers.

Mark Lawrence.

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#30229

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:28:16 +0100, Mark Lawrence
<breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> declaimed the following in
gmane.comp.python.general:

> On 26/09/2012 14:01, Roy Smith wrote:
> > In article <mailman.1421.1348653712.27098.python-list@python.org>,
> >   Hannu Krosing <hannu@krosing.net> wrote:
> >
> >> You can get only so far using "sales". At some point you have to deliver.
> >
> > But, by that time, the guy who closed the sale has already cashed his
> > bonus check, bought his new BMW, and moved on to another company.
> >
> > And around that time, some poor schmuck of a dev manager is telling his
> > team what the sales guy sold.  And that they have 12 weeks to design,
> > build, and deliver it.
> >
> 
> How long did you just say???  I promised it in 8 weeks, not 12 you 
> complete moron :)

	That means it will be done in 16 months (double the time estimate
and change to next larger unit)
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
        wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#30275

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 09:15:00 +0100, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I though this might be of interest.
> 
> http://www.ironfroggy.com/software/i-am-worried-about-the-future-of-
python


And a response:

http://data.geek.nz/python-is-doing-just-fine



-- 
Steven

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#30291

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:13 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 09:15:00 +0100, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> And a response:
>
> http://data.geek.nz/python-is-doing-just-fine

Summary of that article:

"Sure, you have all these legitimate concerns, but look, cake!"

-- Devin

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#30294

On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:11:13 -0400, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:13 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 09:15:00 +0100, Mark Lawrence wrote: And a
>> response:
>>
>> http://data.geek.nz/python-is-doing-just-fine
> 
> Summary of that article:
> 
> "Sure, you have all these legitimate concerns, but look, cake!"

Did you read the article or just make up a witty response? If so, you 
half succeeded.

It's more like, "Well, maybe, your concerns *might* be legitimate, but I 
don't think so because..." and then he gives half a dozen or more reasons 
why Python is in no danger. None of which involve cake, although one of 
them did involve Raspberry Pi. An easy mistake to make.



-- 
Steven

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#30302

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:25 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:11:13 -0400, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 2:13 AM, Steven D'Aprano
>> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 09:15:00 +0100, Mark Lawrence wrote: And a
>>> response:
>>>
>>> http://data.geek.nz/python-is-doing-just-fine
>>
>> Summary of that article:
>>
>> "Sure, you have all these legitimate concerns, but look, cake!"
>
> Did you read the article or just make up a witty response? If so, you
> half succeeded.
>
> It's more like, "Well, maybe, your concerns *might* be legitimate, but I
> don't think so because..." and then he gives half a dozen or more reasons
> why Python is in no danger. None of which involve cake, although one of
> them did involve Raspberry Pi. An easy mistake to make.

Haha! :)

Well, I don't agree. But let me explain.

If we're going to have a serious discussion about the problems Python
faces in the future, then the topics that Calvin brings up are
relevant. These are problems that, ideally, we would overcome. And I
think, to some degree, we are working towards a future where these
problems are solved. (Except perhaps the game development one, which
is a rather tough problem in a lot of ways.)

As people have noted, we do have Kivy, we do have PyPy, we do have
PyJS and other such things. The future has possibilities for the
problems Calvin mentions to be solved, even if they are problems
today.

The article that was linked, the response, it doesn't talk about this.

When Calvin says that Python has problems with mobile, the article
doesn't even say "but Kivy does mobile" -- it says "but Science people
love Python!"

When Calvin says that Python has problems being done on the web, the
article doesn't even say "but PyJS!" (regardless of the problems of
relying on a hijacked project), it says "education loves Python!"

When Calvin says that Python has failed for game development, the
article doesn't try to explain any way that Python is moving to
success here, or any way that Calvin's assessment is wrong. Instead,
it says, "But The Web loves Python!"

There is a pattern here. The pattern is that the article does not
actually directly respond to anything Calvin said. It doesn't try to
carry a dialogue about concerns about problem areas Python has. It
ignores Python's problems, and focuses on its strengths.

Charitably, maybe we'd call this a way of encouraging people who are
discouraged by the bleaker tone of Calvin's post. And that's valid, if
we're worried about morale. Definitely Calvin's post could be -- and
has been -- taken the wrong way. It could be taken as a way of saying,
"Python is doomed!", even though that isn't something Calvin ever
wrote (he appears, from my reading, to be more worried about a
stagnating community than a failed language). Under that
interpretation, we would want other, more encouraging voices around,
talking about ways in which Python is good and will survive.

Uncharitably, it's just a way of hiding one's head in the sand,
ignoring any problems Python has by focusing on what problems it
doesn't have.

So that's why I said that the summary is, "but look, cake!". Instead
of being a dialogue about improving Python, it's a distraction from
the issues Calvin brought up. It brings up strengths, which are also
part of Python, but don't have much at all to do with Python's
weaknesses, or with what Calvin was talking about.

-- Devin

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#30342

On Sep 28, 2:17 am, Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Uncharitably, it's just a way of hiding one's head in the sand,
> ignoring any problems Python has by focusing on what problems it
> doesn't have.

But isn't that what counterpoint is all about? Calvin's article
highlighted what he felt were areas that Python isn't successful,
while Tim McNamara's pointed out areas it was. Just because Python
isn't used much in commercial video games doesn't undermine the point
that it's heavily used in education and research.

Does Python _have_ to be a go-to tool in gaming for it to not be on
its death march?

Or more to the point: rather than just complain about it... It's not
like there aren't active communities that _are_ working in this area:
PyGame, pyglet, Kivy are all projects that can be contributed to.

I love using Python and will endeavour to do so wherever I can, but
it's always going to be the case that a language has strengths &
weaknesses that other languages lack.

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#30426

On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 8:59 PM, alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sep 28, 2:17 am, Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Uncharitably, it's just a way of hiding one's head in the sand,
>> ignoring any problems Python has by focusing on what problems it
>> doesn't have.
>
> But isn't that what counterpoint is all about?

Actually I think it's about the charitable interpretation. Nobody
writes an article and says, "I'm going to stick my head in the sand".
I do believe the article is trying to provide a counterweight to the
gloomy mood set by the first.

> Calvin's article
> highlighted what he felt were areas that Python isn't successful,
> while Tim McNamara's pointed out areas it was. Just because Python
> isn't used much in commercial video games doesn't undermine the point
> that it's heavily used in education and research.

Absolutely. But also, vice versa -- just because Python is a wonderful
language for education and research does not mean that its problems in
commercial video games are not worth looking at.

> Does Python _have_ to be a go-to tool in gaming for it to not be on
> its death march?

I don't think anyone is arguing it's on a death march, just that there
are issues that we downplay but should address to keep a vibrant and
diverse community. Or something.

I'm pretty sure nobody thinks Python is on a death march.

> Or more to the point: rather than just complain about it... It's not
> like there aren't active communities that _are_ working in this area:
> PyGame, pyglet, Kivy are all projects that can be contributed to.

Haha, I wouldn't phrase it as "complaining".

Of these, I have mixed feelings. For example, Calvin has concerns that
Python isn't so good on mobile because battery usage (or some such
thing). I have no experience on mobile development, so no comment
there. I intend to use Kivy this weekend actually, so... Maybe this
one is very promising!

You didn't mention it, but for the browser issue there is PyJS... but
we've all heard the issues that project has. Not sure if there are
sane alternatives. Perhaps Silverlight? In all cases you end up with
output that's rather large. I'm not sure how practical it is, in the
end, to use Python. It may just be that the difference in productivity
for common web tasks, is tiny enough that the difficulty of setting up
an efficient python->JS toolchain is overwhelming.

As for pygame and pyglet, and game development, well, those are
things. That's a sort of frustrating response for a number of reasons,
but I'll keep it to just one:

Those have been around for a very long time, and are very stable (to
the point where the infrequency of updates sometimes leads to
questions as to whether they're even maintained (I think they are)).
The situation for using Python for game development is virtually
unchanged in the past several years, and it's been failing for the
past several years, so these two projects can't fix it. If these are
the best we have, barring additional argument we are going nowhere on
this front.

For what it's worth, I think there are much larger problems in the
game development world than how well Python is faring. Open source
projects for game development are few and of not-so-amazing quality.

> I love using Python and will endeavour to do so wherever I can, but
> it's always going to be the case that a language has strengths &
> weaknesses that other languages lack.

Absolutely! Python will never be perfect. There will always be paths
we can take to improve it. And we should always seek to improve it, as
long as we stand behind it as a good and useful language compared to
the alternatives.

On the other hand, I will not use Python "wherever I can". I will use
it wherever it makes the most sense to use it. For example, I would
write a first person shooter game in C# and Unity 3D, and I would
write my AJAX website in Javascript. It's just easier for me that way.
Why use Python if it makes my job harder?

-- Devin

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