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New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough?

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  New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? mogul <morten.guldager@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 12:01 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? ian douglas <ian.douglas@iandouglas.com> - 2012-12-27 12:13 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Daniel Fetchinson <fetchinson@googlemail.com> - 2012-12-27 21:16 +0100
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2012-12-27 20:23 +0000
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? peter <pjmakey2@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 17:14 -0300
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-12-27 15:57 -0500
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2012-12-27 21:16 +0000
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2012-12-27 15:25 -0600
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 14:28 -0700
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 14:29 -0700
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Modulok <modulok@gmail.com> - 2012-12-27 16:30 -0700
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2012-12-28 10:37 +1100
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 10:41 +1100
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? "TommyVee" <xxxxxxxx@xxxxxx.xxx> - 2012-12-27 20:09 -0500
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-12-27 20:37 -0500
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-12-28 04:15 +0000
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Jamie Paul Griffin <jamie@kode5.net> - 2012-12-28 06:51 +0000
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Yuvraj Sharma <aleastech@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 01:37 -0800
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Jamie Paul Griffin <jamie@kode5.net> - 2012-12-30 14:15 +0000
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-01-02 18:36 +0000
          Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Matty Sarro <msarro@gmail.com> - 2013-01-02 13:47 -0500
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 03:52 -0600
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 21:05 +1100
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Kwpolska <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 11:27 +0100
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? gst <g.starck@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 04:08 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? python培训 <51mmj.com@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 06:15 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com> - 2012-12-28 18:02 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-29 17:40 +1100
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Monte Milanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2012-12-29 09:44 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-30 05:07 +1100
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-12-29 14:52 -0500
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Monte Milanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2012-12-29 12:51 -0800
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-30 08:21 +1100
          Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-12-29 16:52 -0500
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2012-12-29 17:10 -0500
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-30 09:30 +1100
              Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-01-01 03:55 +0000
                Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-01-01 15:20 +1100
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2012-12-29 17:40 -0500
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-30 10:16 +1100
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-01-02 18:43 +0000
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-12-29 18:50 +0000
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Tim Johnson <tim@akwebsoft.com> - 2012-12-29 15:38 -0900
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-12-30 11:54 +1100
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2012-12-29 14:00 -0500
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-01-01 03:46 +0000
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2013-01-01 21:12 +1100
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-01-01 08:23 -0600
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-01-01 13:43 -0500
          Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-01-01 14:02 -0500
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-01-01 14:32 -0500
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-01-02 21:17 -0600
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-01-02 22:48 -0500
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2013-01-02 14:33 -0700
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-01-02 17:48 -0500
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-01-02 20:37 -0600
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Gisle Vanem <gvanem@broadpark.no> - 2013-01-03 10:59 +0100
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Adam Tauno Williams <awilliam@whitemice.org> - 2012-12-31 06:57 -0500
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Hans Mulder <hansmu@xs4all.nl> - 2012-12-31 13:35 +0100
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-01-01 09:46 +1100
          Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2013-01-04 09:34 +0200
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-01-05 02:34 +1100
            Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-01-04 10:59 -0600
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-01-01 09:54 +1100
        Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? xDog Walker <thudfoo@gmail.com> - 2012-12-31 16:13 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? jussij@zeusedit.com - 2013-01-01 16:12 -0800
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Ramchandra Apte <maniandram01@gmail.com> - 2013-01-01 21:10 -0800
      Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-01-02 21:20 -0600
    Re: New to python, do I need an IDE or is vim still good enough? jrodkeyjr@gmail.com - 2013-01-04 08:28 -0800

Page 4 of 4 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4]

#36108

Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> writes:

> Hans Mulder <hansmu@xs4all.nl> writes:
>
>> Don't bother: Python comes with a free IDE named IDLE.
>
> And any decent Unix-alike (most OSen apart from Windows) comes with its
> own IDE: the shell, a good text editor (Vim or Emacs being the primary
> candidates), and a terminal multiplexor (such as ‘tmux’ or GNU Screen).

Just curious since I read the same thing in a programming book recently
(21st century C). So what's the greatness that terminal multiplexors
offer over tabbed terminals? Especially for software development?

For sure I use screen at the remote end of ssh connections where I don't
want the application like irssi to die if the connection goes down but
other than that?

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#36111

On Fri, Jan 4, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> wrote:
> Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> writes:
>
>> And any decent Unix-alike (most OSen apart from Windows) comes with its
>> own IDE: the shell, a good text editor (Vim or Emacs being the primary
>> candidates), and a terminal multiplexor (such as ‘tmux’ or GNU Screen).
>
> Just curious since I read the same thing in a programming book recently
> (21st century C). So what's the greatness that terminal multiplexors
> offer over tabbed terminals? Especially for software development?

The main thing is that you'll need a _lot_ of terminals. On my Debian
and Ubuntu GNOME-based systems, I tend to assign one desktop to each
of several "modes", usually with my (tabbed) editor and browser on the
first desktop. At the moment, desktop #3 (hit Ctrl-Alt-RightArrow
twice) is for building Pike, running Gypsum, and git-managing Gypsum;
desktop #2 is for my poltergeist controllers (MIDI to my keyboard),
with a few different windows depending on what I'm doing; and desktop
#1 is... everything else. SciTE, Google Chrome, a couple of Nautilus
windows, and roughly twenty terminals doing various things like
Command & Conquer Renegade, iptables management, SSH sessions to two
other servers, the Yosemite project... wow, what a lot of random junk
I have running on Sikorsky at the moment. It seems I currently have 25
instances of bash running, in addition to the non-bash windows.

Tabbed terminals probably would work fine, but I've personally just
never gotten accustomed to any. You will want some kind of system that
lets you group related shell sessions together (eg one for 'make', one
for running the app, and one for git, all relating to one project),
and add more terminals to a group as required. The most important
editing key is command recall (up arrow or similar), and keeping three
or four different command histories per project is hugely
advantageous.

ChrisA

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#36121

On 01/04/13 01:34, Anssi Saari wrote:
> Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> writes:
>> And any decent Unix-alike (most OSen apart from Windows) comes with its
>> own IDE: the shell, a good text editor (Vim or Emacs being the primary
>> candidates), and a terminal multiplexor (such as ‘tmux’ or GNU Screen).
>
> Just curious since I read the same thing in a programming book recently
> (21st century C). So what's the greatness that terminal multiplexors
> offer over tabbed terminals? Especially for software development?
>
> For sure I use screen at the remote end of ssh connections where I don't
> want the application like irssi to die if the connection goes down but
> other than that?

The reattaching is a nice feature--especially since you can start 
some work in one location, then SSH into the box remotely and 
reattach, resuming where you left off.  Other nice things include

- if it's a remote machine, only connecting once.  This is more a 
factor if you need to enter a password, rather than using 
passwordless public/private key auth.  But even with passwordless 
key-pairs, you still have to type "ssh user@host" rather than 
"{prefix key}c" to create a new connection on the same machine.

- the ability to monitor windows for activity/silence (at least GNU 
Screen offered this; I haven't dug for it yet in tmux which I'm 
learning).  This is nice for backgrounding a compile and being 
notified when it goes silent (usually means it's done) or watching a 
long-running quiet process to get notification when it finally has 
some output.  I used this feature a LOT back when I did C/C++ work.

- both offer the ability to do screen-sharing with other parties, as 
well as granting them various permissions (user X can watch but not 
interact with the session, while user Y can issue commands to the 
terminal as well) which is nice for remotely pair programming, or 
teaching somebody the ropes or troubleshooting.

- depending on your tabbed terminal windows, terminal multiplexors 
usually offer some split-screen abilities (last I checked, GNU 
Screen only offered horizontal splits; tmux had both vertical & 
horizontal splits).  As a Vim user (which doesn't have a way to 
include a terminal window inside Vim unless you rebuild it with 
unofficial patches), this allows me to have an editor in one 
{screen|tmux} window and a shell in the other and be able to see 
them together.  I don't use it much, but it's nice to have when I do 
need it.

- tmux offers the ability to transmit keyboard input to all 
linked/synchronized windows, so you can connect to multiple servers 
and then issue the same commands and they get run across all of 
them.  I believe Screen offers a similar ability to broadcast 
keystrokes to all windows, but with a clunkier interface.  Sort of a 
poor-man's "clusterssh".  I've not needed this one, but it's there 
in case you manage clusters or develop/deploy with them.


Those are just a few of the things that come to mind.  Some might be 
replicated by a tabbed terminal window; others less so.

-tkc

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#35860

On Tue, Jan 1, 2013 at 9:46 AM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> Hans Mulder <hansmu@xs4all.nl> writes:
>
>> Don't bother: Python comes with a free IDE named IDLE.
>
> And any decent Unix-alike (most OSen apart from Windows) comes with its
> own IDE: the shell, a good text editor (Vim or Emacs being the primary
> candidates), and a terminal multiplexor (such as ‘tmux’ or GNU Screen).
>
> Learning to use that development environment will benefit you far more
> than any language-specific tool.

And more than that: Learning to use that development environment gives
you the flexibility to swap out components individually. "The shell"
could be one of several (though bash seems to be the most popular),
the editor is one of many, and there are a good few options for
terminal arrangement (tmux, screen, gnome-terminal, etc). So what if
you decide you don't like vim OR emacs - you can still use the "Unix
IDE" with some other editor. Most IDEs don't have that facility.

It's a question of freedom. Would you let someone else choose what
shoes you're allowed to wear? Then why cede over the choice of
development software? No matter how awesome those shoes are, it's an
unnecessary restriction in freedom.

Of course, you're free to use an IDE if you want to, too. I don't see
much point in it, but if that's how you swing, go for it.

ChrisA

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#35864

On Monday 2012 December 31 14:46, Ben Finney wrote:
> “I bought some powdered water, but I don't know what to add.”

Suggest to Stephen Wright to add hot coffee.

-- 
Yonder nor sorghum stenches shut ladle gulls stopper torque wet 
strainers.

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#35939

FWIW on the Windows platform the Zeus IDE has support for Python:

    http://www.zeusedit.com/python.html

Zeus does the standard Python syntax highlighting, code completion, smart 
indenting, class browsing, code folding etc.

Zeus also has limited Python debugger support and is fully scriptable 
in Python.

Jussi Jumppanen
Author: Zeus Editor

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#35959

On Friday, 28 December 2012 01:31:16 UTC+5:30, mogul  wrote:
> 'Aloha!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.
> 
> 
> 
> Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.
> 
> 
> 
> Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for me? 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!
> 
> 
> 
> /mogul %-)

I use Eclipse only because it has PEP 8 and Pylint integration.
Ezio Melotti, core Python developer, said in personal chat, that he uses Kate.
IDEs aren't that useful when coding in Python.

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#36031

On Tue, 1 Jan 2013, Ramchandra Apte wrote:

> On Friday, 28 December 2012 01:31:16 UTC+5:30, mogul  wrote:
>> 'Aloha!
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.
>>
>>
>>
>> Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.
>>
>>
>>
>> Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for me?
>>
>>
>>
>> Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!
>>
>>
>>
>> /mogul %-)
>
> I use Eclipse only because it has PEP 8 and Pylint integration.
> Ezio Melotti, core Python developer, said in personal chat, that he uses Kate.
> IDEs aren't that useful when coding in Python.

I concur. I think it's because with a language that has 43(?) keywords and 
I believe it's 12 different statement types, you can easily fit it all in 
your head. What you can't fit in your head is found in the docstrings of 
whatever you're using.

Give me an interactive interpreter, vim, and a web browser, and I'm more 
than fine.

-W

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#36118

If you are going to review an IDE, or multiple, I would recommend Komodo and Komodo Edit.

On Thursday, December 27, 2012 2:01:16 PM UTC-6, mogul wrote:
> 'Aloha!
> 
> 
> 
> I'm new to python, got 10-20 years perl and C experience, all gained on unix alike machines hacking happily in vi, and later on in vim.
> 
> 
> 
> Now it's python, and currently mainly on my kubuntu desktop.
> 
> 
> 
> Do I really need a real IDE, as the windows guys around me say I do, or will vim, git, make and other standalone tools make it the next 20 years too for me? 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, by the way, after 7 days I'm completely in love with this python thing. I should have made the switch much earlier!
> 
> 
> 
> /mogul %-)

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