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'is not' or '!='

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  'is not' or '!=' "ElChino" <elchino@cnn.cn> - 2014-08-18 22:35 +0200
    Re: 'is not' or '!=' MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-08-18 21:53 +0100
    Re: 'is not' or '!=' Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-18 23:53 +0300
      Re: 'is not' or '!=' "ElChino" <elchino@cnn.cn> - 2014-08-18 22:58 +0200
        Re: 'is not' or '!=' Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-08-18 14:42 -0700
        Re: 'is not' or '!=' Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-08-18 15:19 -0700
        Re: 'is not' or '!=' Chris Kaynor <ckaynor@zindagigames.com> - 2014-08-18 15:04 -0700
          Re: 'is not' or '!=' Thomas Rachel <nutznetz-0c1b6768-bfa9-48d5-a470-7603bd3aa915@spamschutz.glglgl.de> - 2014-08-19 11:49 +0200
        Re: 'is not' or '!=' Martin S <shieldfire@gmail.com> - 2014-08-19 14:42 +0200
        Re: 'is not' or '!=' Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2014-08-19 08:12 -0500
          Re: 'is not' or '!=' Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-19 20:29 +0300
            Re: 'is not' or '!=' Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-08-19 12:34 -0500
              Re: 'is not' or '!=' Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-19 21:18 +0300
            Re: 'is not' or '!=' Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-20 04:26 +1000
              Re: 'is not' or '!=' Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-19 21:52 +0300
                Re: 'is not' or '!=' Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-20 00:00 +0300
                  Re: 'is not' or '!=' Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-08-19 16:21 -0600
                    Re: 'is not' or '!=' Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-20 02:02 +0300
                  Re: 'is not' or '!=' Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-20 22:03 -0700
                    Re: 'is not' or '!=' Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-21 08:56 +0300
              Re: 'is not' or '!=' Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-08-19 20:05 +0100
              Re: 'is not' or '!=' Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-08-19 18:23 -0400
        Re: 'is not' or '!=' Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-08-19 10:42 -0600
          Re: 'is not' or '!=' Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-08-19 20:36 +0300
        Re: 'is not' or '!=' Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2014-08-19 13:44 -0500
      Re: 'is not' or '!=' alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-08-19 09:35 +0000
      Re: 'is not' or '!=' Thomas Rachel <nutznetz-0c1b6768-bfa9-48d5-a470-7603bd3aa915@spamschutz.glglgl.de> - 2014-08-19 11:53 +0200
    Re: 'is not' or '!=' Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-18 19:29 -0700
      Re: 'is not' or '!=' Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-19 08:36 +0000
        Re: 'is not' or '!=' Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-19 18:47 +1000
        Re: 'is not' or '!=' Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-08-19 05:36 -0500
        Re: 'is not' or '!=' Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-08-20 09:24 +1000
          Re: 'is not' or '!=' Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-19 21:01 -0700
            Re: 'is not' or '!=' Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-20 04:59 +0000
              Re: 'is not' or '!=' Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-19 22:25 -0700
                Re: 'is not' or '!=' Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-08-20 21:05 +1000
                  Re: 'is not' or '!=' Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-20 21:17 +1000
                    Re: 'is not' or '!=' Thomas Rachel <nutznetz-0c1b6768-bfa9-48d5-a470-7603bd3aa915@spamschutz.glglgl.de> - 2014-08-21 20:31 +0200
                  Re: 'is not' or '!=' Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-08-20 06:26 -0500
                  Re: 'is not' or '!=' Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-08-20 21:33 +1000
                  Re: 'is not' or '!=' Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2014-08-20 12:40 +0100
                  Re: 'is not' or '!=' Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-08-20 05:01 -0700
    Re: 'is not' or '!=' Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> - 2014-08-21 12:24 -0700
      Re: 'is not' or '!=' "ElChino" <elchino@cnn.cn> - 2014-08-21 21:42 +0200

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#76601

On 19/08/2014 19:26, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>
>>         CPython implementation detail: This is the address of the object
>>         in memory.
>
> I really wish CPython didn't do that, or at least not admit to it. It does
> nothing but confuse people.
>

I agree and would happily support your issue on the bug tracker to get 
it deleted from the docs :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#76613

On 8/19/2014 3:05 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 19/08/2014 19:26, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>
>>>         CPython implementation detail: This is the address of the object
>>>         in memory.
>>
>> I really wish CPython didn't do that, or at least not admit to it. It
>> does
>> nothing but confuse people.
>>
>
> I agree and would happily support your issue on the bug tracker to get
> it deleted from the docs :)

It was added to the docs because people noticed that CPython ids looked 
like addresses and assumed incorrectly that this is a language property. 
  In other words, the point is not to say that CPython uses addresses - 
people already know or discover that, but to say that the addresses are 
*only* implementation detail.

That said, I agree that it unfortunately *does* unnecessarily inform 
people who do not know that and probably confuses some who do not 
understand why they are being told something they don't need to know. We 
could discuss alternatives here.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#76576

On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 7:12 AM, Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> wrote:
> The use of "is" or "is not" is the right thing to do when the object
> of the comparison is known to be a singleton. That is true for None.
> (I suspect it's true for True and False as well, though for historical
> and idiomatic reasons "x is True" is never used.) It would also be
> true if you created a sentinel object like this:
>
> SENTINEL = []

When I need to do this, I use:

    SENTINEL = object()

It's still a singleton, and why should a sentinel be mutable?

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#76583

Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>:

> When I need to do this, I use:
>
>     SENTINEL = object()
>
> It's still a singleton, and why should a sentinel be mutable?

Private enums are often nicer in that they provide str() and repr().


Marko

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#76596

On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> wrote:
> When I need to do this, I use:
>
>     SENTINEL = object()
>
> It's still a singleton, and why should a sentinel be mutable?

Old habits die hard, I guess. I've been using Python since long before
object() existed. :-)

Skip

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#76551

On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 23:53:49 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> "ElChino" <elchino@cnn.cn>:
> 
>> A newbie question to you; what is the difference between statements
>> like:
>>  if x is not None:
>> and if x != None:
> 
> Do the following: take two $10 bills. Hold one bill in the left hand,
> hold the other bill in the right hand.
> 
> Now, the bill in the left hand "is not" the bill in the right hand.
> However, the bill in the left hand "==" the bill in the right hand.
> 
>> Without any context, which one should be preferred?
>> IMHO, the latter is more readable.
> 
> In almost all cases, both tests would result in the same behavior.
> However, the "is not" test is conceptually the correct one since you
> want to know if x is the one and only None object. You don't want to be
> fooled by an imposter object that simply looks like the None object.
> Frankly, I don't know of any other object that is "==" to the None
> object except None itself, but such objects could possible exist.
> 
> 
> Marko

Depending on context you may 'Want' 0 to be equal to none
however as far as python is concerned it is not.




-- 
"Why must you tell me all your secrets when it's hard enough to love
you knowing nothing?"
		-- Lloyd Cole and the Commotions

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#76554

Am 18.08.2014 22:53 schrieb Marko Rauhamaa:

> Frankly, I don't know of any other object that is "==" to the None
> object except None itself, but such objects could possible exist.

class ImitatingNone(object):
     def __eq__(self, other):
         return True # is equal to everything else
         return other is None # is equal only to None
         return not(other) # is equal to everything which is falsey


Pick one.

Thomas

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#76537

On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 2:05:01 AM UTC+5:30, ElChino wrote:
> A newbie question to you; what is the difference between statements 
> like:
>   if x is not None:
> and
>  if x != None:

> Without any context, which one should be preferred?
> IMHO, the latter is more readable.

Here is Terry Reedy, a python-dev, from Mar 2, on this list on 'is'

| The 'is' operator has three uses, two intended and one not. In
| production code, 'is' tests that an object *is* a particular singular
| object, such as None or a sentinel instance of class object². In test
| code, 'is' can also be used to test details of a particular
| implementation, such as pre-allocation of small ints. New python
| programmers also use it to confuse themselves. 

which I would summarize by "if you are a beginner you dont want to
deal with is"¹

As for Marko's dollar bill example: 
I find it very plausible and still more misleading because:

1. We write computer programs because we want to understand/manipulate
something outside the computer -- 'reality'
2. The computer program never deals with that reality directly but at one
or more removes -- it handles models

eg. You go to a real-estate agent to buy an apartment and see two
plaster of paris models is his office.  Different cases may emerge:

a. The models are for two different projects -- one on the North and
one on the East side of town
b. They are two facades of the same project

OTOH the fact that there are two distinct plaster of paris objects in
the agent's office is true but mostly irrelevant.
ie if the agent says "These two ARE the same" he means they are different views 
of the same building.
IOW python's use of the word 'is' is misleading and unfortunate 

¹ "... is None" is an exception -- unfortunate in my view.
Treat the 'is None' as atomic write it but and dont look inside!

² Same as case 3

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#76542

On Mon, 18 Aug 2014 19:29:11 -0700, Rustom Mody wrote:

> On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 2:05:01 AM UTC+5:30, ElChino wrote:
>> A newbie question to you; what is the difference between statements
>> like:
>>   if x is not None:
>> and
>>  if x != None:
> 
>> Without any context, which one should be preferred? IMHO, the latter is
>> more readable.
> 
> Here is Terry Reedy, a python-dev, from Mar 2, on this list on 'is'
> 
> | The 'is' operator has three uses, two intended and one not. In 
> | production code, 'is' tests that an object *is* a particular singular
> | object, such as None or a sentinel instance of class object². In test
> | code, 'is' can also be used to test details of a particular 
> | implementation, such as pre-allocation of small ints. New python
> | programmers also use it to confuse themselves.

Hah :-)

You'll notice that use-case #2, testing implementation details, is just a 
special case of #1, testing that a value is a specific instance.


> which I would summarize by "if you are a beginner you dont want to deal
> with is"¹

In general, correct. Actually, even experts should hardly ever need to 
use `is`. And as you point out, "is None" is an exception.


> As for Marko's dollar bill example:
> I find it very plausible and still more misleading because:
[...snip example of plaster-of-paris models...]
> OTOH the fact that there are two distinct plaster of paris objects in
> the agent's office is true but mostly irrelevant. ie if the agent says
> "These two ARE the same" he means they are different views of the same
> building.
> IOW python's use of the word 'is' is misleading and unfortunate

The English word "is" is the third-person singular simple present 
indicative form of "be", quoting Wiktionary:

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/is#English

The word "be" (is, was, been, will be, has been, etc.) has many different 
meanings and usage, including:

- mathematical equality, "two times three is six";

- metaphorical equivalence, "he is a dumb ox";

- linking the subject to a count or measurement, "this building is 
  300 years old";

- to connect a noun to an adjective, "my shirt is wrinkled";

- to connect the subject noun to a noun or noun phrase, "she is
  a petty dictator";

- to indicate that the subject and object are the same, "Elizabeth 
  Windsor[1] is the Queen of England";

and quite a few more.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/be#English


There is no requirement that the word "is" can only be used in a 
programming language if it reflects all of these meanings. After all, we 
don't expect that the jargon terms "function", "object", "class", 
"method", "procedure" as used by programming languages have *precisely* 
the same meanings as used in plain English.

A programming language is entitled to choose the meaning of its keywords, 
hopefully they would be familiar meanings not radically dissimilar from 
the normal plain English meaning (or whatever language the word is taken 
from). Hypertalk, and its descendants, use "is" as a synonym for 
equality, so that "x is 2" and "x = 2" mean exactly the same thing. 
Python, on the other hand, gives "is" a specific meaning: are the two 
operands the same instance? Although all men and women are equal, only 
one such person is Elizabeth II Queen of England.




[1] It isn't clear or obvious what the Queen[2] would use as a surname on 
the unlikely event she needed one. Even the official website of the UK 
royal family is unclear as to what Elizabeth II would use as a surname 
since her marriage. Prior to her marriage, she used "Elizabeth Windsor" 
on those rare occasions that "Princess Elizabeth" or "Queen Elizabeth II" 
was not sufficient. Her children, should they need a surname, use  
Mountbatten-Windsor. Prince William and Harry used the surname 
"Wales" (for their father's title, Prince of Wales) upon joining the 
military. The whole thing is oh so very complicated.

http://www.royal.gov.uk/ThecurrentRoyalFamily/TheRoyalFamilyname/Overview.aspx

Why do I know so much about the British royal family???


[2] Of the UK, Australia, and a few other places, but not Denmark, or any 
other place with a Queen.



-- 
Steven

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#76547

On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 6:36 PM, Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote:
> Why do I know so much about the British royal family???
>
>
> [2] Of the UK, Australia, and a few other places, but not Denmark, or any
> other place with a Queen.

Possibly because British royalty is very well-defined, and can be used
to explain other, even fictional, royalty. We can examine Arendelle
and notice that, even though most Queens Consort would be addressed
equivalently to a Queen Regnant, their Queen Consort is addressed
equivalently to a princess. (She's addressed as Highness as she
embarks on her last sea voyage.)

Why do I know so much about the Arendelle royal family? Hmm.

ChrisA

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#76556

On 2014-08-19 08:36, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> The English word "is" is the third-person singular simple present 
> indicative form of "be",

Am I the only one who feels the urge to write

  if i am some_other_object: ...
  if we are some_other_object: ...
  if u are some_other_object: ... # though txtspk bothers me

instead of using "is" for reasons of grammatical correctness?  I've
changed variable-names to avoid this on occasion. :-)

-tkc

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#76623

Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> writes:

> Am I the only one who feels the urge to write
>
>   if i am some_other_object: ...
>   if we are some_other_object: ...
>   if u are some_other_object: ... # though txtspk bothers me

How often do you need to refer to an object with personal pronouns? I
think for me the answer is “never”. Why not name the specific role the
object is playing, rather than the indirectness of personal pronouns?

So, in short: you may not be the only one, but I find it difficult to
imagine why anyone would be motivated to do that.

-- 
 \      “When I was born I was so surprised I couldn't talk for a year |
  `\                                        and a half.” —Gracie Allen |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#76632

On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 4:54:00 AM UTC+5:30, Ben Finney wrote:
> Tim Chase writes:

> > Am I the only one who feels the urge to write
> >   if i am some_other_object: ...
> >   if we are some_other_object: ...
> >   if u are some_other_object: ... # though txtspk bothers me

> How often do you need to refer to an object with personal pronouns? I
> think for me the answer is "never". Why not name the specific role the
> object is playing, rather than the indirectness of personal pronouns?

> So, in short: you may not be the only one, but I find it difficult to
> imagine why anyone would be motivated to do that.

If you've taught beginners its not so surprising -- 
Ive heard all kinds of
- I go here
- I try this again
- I come back

where that 'I' is some procedure/program-counter-ish notion
and the listener is supposed to figure out what exactly the speaker is
(currently) identifying with :-)

Ive never heard 'we-s' and 'u-s' though

I also (once!) had a student who started every single variable/function/filename
with his name!!

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#76634

On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 21:01:49 -0700, Rustom Mody wrote:

> I also (once!) had a student who started every single
> variable/function/filename with his name!!

I recall somebody on the Python tutor mailing list doing that. They did 
so because their course instructor made it a requirement and failed 
anyone who didn't.

No reason was given, according to the student, but I imagine that the 
instructor was trying to teach them "best practice" *cough* for multi-
user projects, so you can identify who first created each function or 
variable.


from guidosys import guidoversion; guidoprint(guidoversion)-ly yr's,

-- 
Steven

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#76636

On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 10:29:13 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 21:01:49 -0700, Rustom Mody wrote:

> > I also (once!) had a student who started every single
> > variable/function/filename with his name!!

> I recall somebody on the Python tutor mailing list doing that. They did 
> so because their course instructor made it a requirement and failed 
> anyone who didn't.

> No reason was given, according to the student, but I imagine that the 
> instructor was trying to teach them "best practice" *cough* for multi-
> user projects, so you can identify who first created each function or 
> variable.

It is interesting (and insidious) how technology shapes our thinking
patterns.  Before git, such tracking could be a headache.  Things like
git blame give an automated list 'blaming' each line on its
perpetrator.

Likewise when teaching (with) C it was immoral behaviour to not match
malloc and free, file-open and close.
Today the first is impossible and the second is unnecessary and wasteful

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#76652

Rustom Mody wrote:

> It is interesting (and insidious) how technology shapes our thinking
> patterns.  Before git, 

Pardon me, but git did not invent revision control. There are dozens of
revision control software applications, including:

Mercurial: released April 2005
Git: released April 2005
GNU Bazaar: released March 2005
Subversion: 2000
Clearcase: 1992
CVS: 1990

Even venerable old cvs tracked authors.


> such tracking could be a headache.  Things like 
> git blame give an automated list 'blaming' each line on its
> perpetrator.
> 
> Likewise when teaching (with) C it was immoral behaviour to not match
> malloc and free, file-open and close.
> Today the first is impossible and the second is unnecessary and wasteful

If you're talking about Python, in the second case you're mistaken. Although
it is not *compulsory* to close files in Python, since the garbage
collector will eventually do so for you, it is considered good practice to
do so. Generally it is considered best to use a `with open(...) as f`
block, and Python will automatically close the file as soon as the block is
left, but manually calling f.close() is still an option.


-- 
Steven

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#76653

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 9:05 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> Rustom Mody wrote:
>
>> It is interesting (and insidious) how technology shapes our thinking
>> patterns.  Before git,
>
> Pardon me, but git did not invent revision control. There are dozens of
> revision control software applications, including:
>
> Mercurial: released April 2005
> Git: released April 2005
> GNU Bazaar: released March 2005
> Subversion: 2000
> Clearcase: 1992
> CVS: 1990
>
> Even venerable old cvs tracked authors.

That's true, but how easy is it to annotate a file with each line's
author (or, at least, to figure out who wrote some particular line of
code)? It's easy enough with 'git blame' or 'hg blame', and it
wouldn't surprise me if bzr had a similar feature; but that's all the
current generation of version control systems. I don't think cvs or
svn offered that kind of feature. Sure it's possible in theory - the
information is all there - but if you can't pull it up when you want
it, it's not that helpful.

Personally, I like to just edit the line of code (add a character or
something), save the file, then pull up gitk and look at "Unstaged
Changes", from which I can right-click and say "Show origin of this
line". Much faster than a full 'git blame'.

ChrisA

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#76745

Am 20.08.2014 13:17 schrieb Chris Angelico:

> That's true, but how easy is it to annotate a file with each line's
> author (or, at least, to figure out who wrote some particular line of
> code)? It's easy enough with 'git blame' or 'hg blame', and it
> wouldn't surprise me if bzr had a similar feature; but that's all the
> current generation of version control systems. I don't think cvs or
> svn offered that kind of feature.

$ LANG=C svn help blame
blame (praise, annotate, ann): Output the content of specified files or
URLs with revision and author information in-line.
usage: blame TARGET[@REV]...

$ cvs help
Unknown command: `help'

CVS commands are:
         add          Add a new file/directory to the repository
         admin        Administration front end for rcs
         annotate     Show last revision where each line was modified
[...]

IMHO annotate does the same what blame does on other VCS.


Thomas

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#76654

On 2014-08-20 21:17, Chris Angelico wrote:
> That's true, but how easy is it to annotate a file with each line's
> author (or, at least, to figure out who wrote some particular line
> of code)? It's easy enough with 'git blame' or 'hg blame', and it
> wouldn't surprise me if bzr had a similar feature; but that's all
> the current generation of version control systems. I don't think
> cvs or svn offered that kind of feature.

Just for the record, at least SVN has "svn blame" which will annotate
with the committer's name/id.  I use it all the time at $DAYJOB.  I've
managed to avoid CVS, so I can't speak to that.

-tkc

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#76655

On Wed, Aug 20, 2014 at 9:26 PM, Tim Chase
<python.list@tim.thechases.com> wrote:
> On 2014-08-20 21:17, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> That's true, but how easy is it to annotate a file with each line's
>> author (or, at least, to figure out who wrote some particular line
>> of code)? It's easy enough with 'git blame' or 'hg blame', and it
>> wouldn't surprise me if bzr had a similar feature; but that's all
>> the current generation of version control systems. I don't think
>> cvs or svn offered that kind of feature.
>
> Just for the record, at least SVN has "svn blame" which will annotate
> with the committer's name/id.  I use it all the time at $DAYJOB.  I've
> managed to avoid CVS, so I can't speak to that.
>

Ah, was not aware of that. But my usage of svn has been pretty minimal
(just basic cloning of a repo and such; I think I started svn'ing one
project at one point, got to maybe four revisions, and then the
project stagnated for long enough that I met git), and my cvs even
less so (I cloned exactly one repo, then ran into difficulties, asked
on the mailing list about compiling the version from cvs, and after a
few exchanges, someone said "Wait... when you say cvs, do you
literally mean cvs? We moved to git a little while ago, that's now out
of date" and I moved to git forthwith), so I have no experience with
even slightly advanced tools.

ChrisA

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