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Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won.

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  Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-16 09:51 -0700
    Re: feeding the troll (was: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won.) Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-07-16 12:52 -0500
    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-16 17:59 -0500
    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-07-16 16:06 -0700
      Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 02:29 -0500
        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-07-18 22:36 -0700
      Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 01:39 -0600
    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2011-07-17 09:52 +1000
      Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-17 13:09 +1000
        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. anand jeyahar <anand.ibmgsi@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 09:29 +0530
        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2011-07-17 14:12 +1000
        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 01:32 -0600
          Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. TheSaint <no@nowhere.net.no> - 2011-07-17 21:12 +0800
          Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 08:15 -0700
            Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-07-17 13:22 -0500
              Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 12:49 -0700
            Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 12:48 -0600
              Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 12:54 -0700
                Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 16:02 -0600
                  Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-07-17 19:29 -0400
                    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 18:55 -0500
                      Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-07-17 20:28 -0400
                        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 19:48 -0500
                        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 19:50 -0500
                          Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-07-17 21:06 -0400
                          Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-07-17 21:06 -0400
                    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-18 11:01 +1000
                      Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-18 11:12 +1000
                        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-07-18 11:42 +1000
                        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-18 18:26 +1200
                      Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-07-18 05:52 -0500
                        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2011-07-18 13:52 +0000
                          Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2011-07-18 17:59 +0100
                          Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-07-18 19:07 -0400
                        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-19 00:59 +1000
                          Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dave Angel <davea@ieee.org> - 2011-07-18 13:11 -0400
                      Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. python@bdurham.com - 2011-07-18 08:33 -0400
                      Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2011-07-18 10:12 -0400
                    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. tinnews@isbd.co.uk - 2011-07-18 10:49 +0100
                    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-18 21:51 +0300
                    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-18 14:06 -0500
                    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-19 05:15 +1000
        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 02:52 -0500
        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. "Anders J. Munch" <2011@jmunch.dk> - 2011-07-17 11:49 +0200
          Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 09:53 -0700
            Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-18 03:11 +1000
              Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 10:57 -0700
                Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-18 04:09 +1000
                Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 20:20 +0200
                  Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 12:22 -0700
                  Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 22:38 +0300
                Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 22:36 +0300
              Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-18 10:54 +1000
                Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 20:26 -0500
                Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Teemu Likonen <tlikonen@iki.fi> - 2011-07-18 09:00 +0300
            Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2011-07-18 08:14 +1000
          Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-17 21:44 +0200
            Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. "Anders J. Munch" <2011@jmunch.dk> - 2011-07-18 20:19 +0200
          Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-07-18 10:06 +1200
            Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-18 18:58 +0200
    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-16 19:29 -0500
      Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-07-17 13:07 +1000
        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-16 22:20 -0500
      Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 09:56 +0200
        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 03:36 -0500
          Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 11:33 +0200
            Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 05:02 -0500
              Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 12:42 +0200
                Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-17 14:35 +0200
                  Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 17:03 +0200
                    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-17 21:10 +0200
                Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 09:46 -0700
                  Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 18:21 -0500
    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 10:31 +1000
    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-07-16 19:27 -0700
    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 09:35 +0200
      Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 09:29 -0700
        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-07-18 02:50 +1000
        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 12:54 -0600
          Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 13:12 -0700
            Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 16:39 -0600
            Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 18:18 -0500
    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 11:15 +0300
      Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-17 14:53 +0200
        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 22:26 +0300
          Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-17 21:53 +0200
            Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 23:46 +0300
    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 03:35 -0500
    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 14:11 +0300
      Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 04:21 -0700
      Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 13:51 +0200
        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 22:20 +0300
          Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 21:34 +0200
            Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 13:22 -0700
    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2011-07-17 10:29 -0400
      Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-17 17:10 +0200
        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Corey Richardson <kb1pkl@aim.com> - 2011-07-17 12:28 -0400
        Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2011-07-18 19:28 +0300
          Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> - 2011-07-18 18:51 +0200
          Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2011-07-18 19:07 +0200
      Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. "Waldek M." <wm@localhost.localdomain> - 2011-07-17 21:39 +0200
    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. Dotan Cohen <dotancohen@gmail.com> - 2011-07-17 22:28 +0300
    Re: Tabs -vs- Spaces: Tabs should have won. gene heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2011-07-17 20:35 -0400

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#9756

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 2:12 PM, rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> wrote:
> On the face of it one might think vertical tabs are a good idea
> however newlines work just fine. There is no reason for expanding
> vertical whitespace to create readble code. If you can offer a good
> reason i'm listening. Also be sure to post links where others have
> requested the same.

Okay:

1) Vertical tabs create freedom in the form of user controlled vertical spacing.

Vertical spacing height should be a choice of the reader NOT the author. We
should never "code in" vertical spacing height; but that is EXACTLY what we
are doing with newlines! No, the reader should be able to choose the
vertical spacing height without ANY formatting required or without any
collateral damage to the source code. Vertical tabs offer freedom,
newlines offer
oppression.

2) Vertical tabs remove the need for complicated newline-formatting tools.

With "vertical tabs only" you no longer need those fancy tools to add
the correct number of newlines between classes or methods.. THAT IS
EXACTLY WHY VERTICAL TABS
WHERE INVENTED! Why are we not using this technology? Why are we
continuing to promote newlines when vertical tabs are obviously more superior?

And as to why we should remove newlines:

3) Using only one vertical space token removes any chance of user error.

Unlike many syntactical errors, vertical space is invisible in a text/
source editor. Sure there are tools that can make vertical space visible,
however why do we constantly create asinine rules that force us to use
complicated tools when we could have choose vertical tabs and none of this
would have been a problem?

4) Vertical tabs maintain unity in the source code base.

When we replace "newlines only" with "vertical tabs only" we maintain
a code base that promotes unity and
not conformity. There shall not be any "inconsistent vertical spacing
errors" due to mixing vertical tabs and newlines. Also we can avoid
adding multiplicity
to the compiler. The compiler will not have to consider BOTH vertical tabs AND
newlines as valid vertical spacing tokens, only vertical tabs. The
logic would be much
simpler.

> Besides, horizontal tabs are tied closely to distinguishing code
> blocks. Vertical tabs do not have such a benefit. Instead of vertical
> tabs we need strict rules on vertical code formatting. I intend to
> draft AND implement such rules very shortly.

Vertical spacing helps to visually separate classes from other
classes, and methods from other methods.

>> I think I get it now.  Your idea of "freedom" is that anybody can do
>> whatever they want as long as it's not illegal,
>
> In a programming language yes. You're trying to draw correlations
> between morality and law. In the arena of programming there is no such
> thing as morality, only the law.

You have been drawing the same correlation from your very first post
where you stated, "Tabs offer freedom, spaces offer oppression."

>> and the ruling party
>> just makes anything it doesn't like illegal.  In other words, a
>> monarchy.
>
> What do you think we have now, a democracy? Does "Benevolent?-Dictator-
> For-Life" ring a bell?

I don't see Guido going around making ridiculous pronouncements about
what forms of indentation are acceptable (beyond the standards that
are set and expected for the standard library, that is).  He could
have made the language space-only from the very beginning.  He didn't;
that should tell you something.  He also could have insisted that the
parser only accept source written in the ISO-8859-1 encoding "for
unity and freedom", but he didn't.  Or he could have stated "absolute
imports only" from the very beginning, and yet even in Python 3 where
the old-style relative imports have been removed, relative imports are
still available to be used.

> I can tell you one thing for sure. In MY version of Python everyone
> will have a voice. That does not mean that EVERYONE will make the
> final decision but EVERYONE's voice will be equally important.

Thanks, but I won't be needing a voice, because your version of Python
will clearly be too limiting from the ground up for me to have any
interest in using it in the first place.

> I can
> also tell you this. I will not hide under the coat tails of my dev
> team , NO, i will mingle with the people on my comp.lang.rickpy list.
> Mats (Ruby's creator) will answer questions on comp.lang.ruby so why
> does Guido refuse to acknowledge us here on comp.lang.python?

Probably for the same reason that (I presume) he doesn't spend all day
answering Python questions on stackoverflow or responding to comments
about Python on slashdot: he can get more done in his actual job by
unsubscribing.

If you want to have input on Python, all you have to do is subscribe
to python-dev.  Of course, it *is* a moderated list, so if you make as
much of a nuisance of yourself over there as you do here, they might
kick you out.

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#9758

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Hash: RIPEMD160

On 2011.07.17 03:12 PM, rantingrick wrote:
> I can tell you one thing for sure. In MY version of Python everyone 
> will have a voice. That does not mean that EVERYONE will make the 
> final decision but EVERYONE's voice will be equally important.
That reminds me of Full Metal Jacket.
"Here you are all equally worthless."

- -- 
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#9683

On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 19:51, rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
>  Evidence: Tabs ARE superior!
> --------------------------------------------------

I am also a recent spaces-to-tabs convert. One of the reasons is that
I've discovered that programing in a non-fixed width font is a real
pleasure, but the spaces are too narrow. Tabs alleviate that.

I'm still looking for the perfect programming font. Suggestions welcomed.

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://gibberish.co.il
http://what-is-what.com

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#9701

Dotan Cohen wrote:

> On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 19:51, rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> wrote:
>> --------------------------------------------------
>> Evidence: Tabs ARE superior!
>> --------------------------------------------------
> 
> I am also a recent spaces-to-tabs convert. One of the reasons is that
> I've discovered that programing in a non-fixed width font is a real
> pleasure, but the spaces are too narrow. Tabs alleviate that.

Not using a fixed-width font avoids this problem and others in the first 
place.
 
> I'm still looking for the perfect programming font. Suggestions welcomed.

I can recommend Consolas (Windows) or Inconsolata (elsewhere), which are 
designed for programming and are near perfect in that regard.  However, I 
have decided for "Deja Vu Sans Mono" for reading and writing Usenet articles 
because it supports more Unicode characters and can be sized appropriately 
for running text.

But, all of them are fixed-width fonts.  I do not understand how you can 
consider using a non-fixed-width font in programming "a real pleasure" as 
many them show a lot of ambiguities in source code.  Take for example the 
lowercase "l" (el) vs. the capital "I" (ai) vs. the "|" (pipe) character,
or the "0" (zero) vs. the capital "O" (oh) character in Arial.

-- 
PointedEars

Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail. / Please do not Cc: me.

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#9736

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 15:53, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<PointedEars@web.de> wrote:
>> I am also a recent spaces-to-tabs convert. One of the reasons is that
>> I've discovered that programing in a non-fixed width font is a real
>> pleasure, but the spaces are too narrow. Tabs alleviate that.
>
> Not using a fixed-width font avoids this problem and others in the first
> place.
>
>> I'm still looking for the perfect programming font. Suggestions welcomed.
>
> I can recommend Consolas (Windows) or Inconsolata (elsewhere), which are
> designed for programming and are near perfect in that regard.  However, I
> have decided for "Deja Vu Sans Mono" for reading and writing Usenet articles
> because it supports more Unicode characters and can be sized appropriately
> for running text.
>

I have used those three in the past. Terrific fonts each of them,
especially Inconsolata if I remember correctly.


> But, all of them are fixed-width fonts.  I do not understand how you can
> consider using a non-fixed-width font in programming "a real pleasure" as
> many them show a lot of ambiguities in source code.  Take for example the
> lowercase "l" (el) vs. the capital "I" (ai) vs. the "|" (pipe) character,
> or the "0" (zero) vs. the capital "O" (oh) character in Arial.
>

The ambiguity has never been an issue for me. In the unlikely event
that an l (el) is in the place of a pipe, the code won't compile and
I'll get an error on the line in question. Though that has never
actually happened: the IDE is double-checking way before the code gets
to the compiler. Zero vs. O (oh), I've never had this issue either and
even if one key was hit in place of the other (they are close by) then
either the IDE or compiler would catch it, or it would result in a
minor bug in a text string.

It simply isn't an issue.


-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://gibberish.co.il
http://what-is-what.com

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#9744

Dotan Cohen wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 15:53, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
>> […]  I do not understand how you can consider using a non-fixed-width
>> font in programming "a real pleasure" as many them show a lot of
>> ambiguities in source code.  Take for example the lowercase "l" (el) vs.
>> the capital "I" (ai) vs. the "|" (pipe) character, or the "0" (zero) vs.
>> the capital "O" (oh) character in Arial.
> 
> The ambiguity has never been an issue for me. In the unlikely event
> that an l (el) is in the place of a pipe, the code won't compile and
> I'll get an error on the line in question. Though that has never
> actually happened: the IDE is double-checking way before the code gets
> to the compiler. Zero vs. O (oh), I've never had this issue either and
> even if one key was hit in place of the other (they are close by) then
> either the IDE or compiler would catch it, or it would result in a
> minor bug in a text string.
> 
> It simply isn't an issue.

Apparently it is *has not been* an issue for *you* *yet*.  There are 
languages (like Python) that are compiled just-in-time.  Besides, neither an 
IDE nor a compiler can (always) recognize that foo["b0r"] is not foo["bOr"] 
(which really is not a far-fetched example as the O and zero keys are 
adjacent to each other on in keyboard layouts).  You do not want such an 
ambiguity to bite you later.

-- 
PointedEars

Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail. / Please do not Cc: me.

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#9750

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 22:53, Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn
<PointedEars@web.de> wrote:
>> It simply isn't an issue.
>
> Apparently it is *has not been* an issue for *you* *yet*.  There are
> languages (like Python) that are compiled just-in-time.  Besides, neither an
> IDE nor a compiler can (always) recognize that foo["b0r"] is not foo["bOr"]
> (which really is not a far-fetched example as the O and zero keys are
> adjacent to each other on in keyboard layouts).  You do not want such an
> ambiguity to bite you later.
>

I do agree that in a weakly-typed language such as python one might
conceivably try to use an undeclared variable and the IDE and compiler
won't catch that. However 0 vs. O would more likely be 0 vs. o as one
would really have to mess up bad to not only press the wrong key but
also hit shift at the same time. 0 and o are no harder to distinguish
in a VWF than in a FWF.

For that matter, why is it assumed that fixed-width fonts by nature
better distinguish 0 from O, or any other ambiguous characters? My
current system (Kubuntu 11.04, default VWF font in Firefox whatever it
may be) distinguished 0 from O just fine. Also I/1 and l/1 are easy to
distinguish, but I agree that I/l are not.

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://gibberish.co.il
http://what-is-what.com

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#9684

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Hash: RIPEMD160

On 2011.07.17 03:15 AM, Dotan Cohen wrote:
> programing in a non-fixed width font is a real pleasure
If you're masochistic, maybe. Do you find fixed-width fonts ugly? I
really would like to know why anyone would use a non-fixed-width font
for programming.
> I'm still looking for the perfect programming font. Suggestions
> welcomed.
I use Courier New.

- -- 
CPython 3.2.1 | Windows NT 6.1.7601.17592 | Thunderbird 5.0
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#9694

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 11:35, Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> wrote:
>> programing in a non-fixed width font is a real pleasure
> If you're masochistic, maybe. Do you find fixed-width fonts ugly?

I don't find that fixed-width fonts are ugly, but variable-width fonts
sure are more of a pleasure. And with code-colouring in any good IDE,
there is no real need to have the dot or other tiny characters jump
out and announce their presence. So long as the indentation lines up
(which it does, with tabs or spaces) then I do not see any problem
with variable-width.

What are the counter-arguments?


> I
> really would like to know why anyone would use a non-fixed-width font
> for programming.

Aesthetics.

>> I'm still looking for the perfect programming font. Suggestions
>> welcomed.
> I use Courier New.
>

Have you looked at the Droid fixed-width fonts? Very nice, and easy to
distinguish 0 from o or O.

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://gibberish.co.il
http://what-is-what.com

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#9695

On Jul 17, 4:11 pm, Dotan Cohen <dotanco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 11:35, Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> programing in a non-fixed width font is a real pleasure
> > If you're masochistic, maybe. Do you find fixed-width fonts ugly?
>
> I don't find that fixed-width fonts are ugly, but variable-width fonts
> sure are more of a pleasure. And with code-colouring in any good IDE,
> there is no real need to have the dot or other tiny characters jump
> out and announce their presence. So long as the indentation lines up
> (which it does, with tabs or spaces) then I do not see any problem
> with variable-width.
>
> What are the counter-arguments?
>
> > I
> > really would like to know why anyone would use a non-fixed-width font
> > for programming.
>
> Aesthetics.

Its more (or less depending...) than just aesthetics.  Its about
optimization.
On a fixed width font an 'i' is as wide as an 'm' as a '.'
This means that a fwf is either a unreasonably small or the lines are
too long.

[Note: I use only fwf because all the tools I know/use/tried are
broken for vwf]

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#9697

* Dotan Cohen (Sun, 17 Jul 2011 14:11:40 +0300)
> So long as the indentation lines up (which it does, with tabs or
> spaces) then I do not see any problem with variable-width.

> What are the counter-arguments?

Alignment doesn't line up.

Thorsten

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#9733

On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 14:51, Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> wrote:
> * Dotan Cohen (Sun, 17 Jul 2011 14:11:40 +0300)
>> So long as the indentation lines up (which it does, with tabs or
>> spaces) then I do not see any problem with variable-width.
>
>> What are the counter-arguments?
>
> Alignment doesn't line up.
>

They do with tabs.

-- 
Dotan Cohen

http://gibberish.co.il
http://what-is-what.com

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#9738

* Dotan Cohen (Sun, 17 Jul 2011 22:20:15 +0300)
> 
> On Sun, Jul 17, 2011 at 14:51, Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> wrote:
> > * Dotan Cohen (Sun, 17 Jul 2011 14:11:40 +0300)
> >> So long as the indentation lines up (which it does, with tabs or
> >> spaces) then I do not see any problem with variable-width.
> >
> >> What are the counter-arguments?
> >
> > Alignment doesn't line up.
> >
> 
> They do with tabs.

Indentation alignment will (because you're using only spaces). Otherwise 
it doesn't align (it can't), simply because of the "variable-width".

For instance (in a variable-width font):

if a == b:
    var123    = 22
    varxyz456 = 333
^^^^          ^^^^^
aligned       not aligned

Thorsten

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#9749

On Jul 17, 2:34 pm, Thorsten Kampe <thors...@thorstenkampe.de> wrote:

> Indentation alignment will (because you're using only spaces). Otherwise
> it doesn't align (it can't), simply because of the "variable-width".
>
> For instance (in a variable-width font):
>
> if a == b:
>     var123    = 22
>     varxyz456 = 333
> ^^^^          ^^^^^
> aligned       not aligned
>
> Thorsten

Tabs will align properly in variable width font if the editor is NOT
broken. When displaying a variable width font the editor should switch
from using the sum of N glyphs to a user defined total width in
absolute measurements (like millimeters). Alternatively if the editor
had to guess it could just use the widest glyph of the current set.

People, please stop using broken tools. If you stop using them people
won't keep producing them. Just imagine how great the world would be
if we could convince windows users!

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#9707

On Sunday, July 17, 2011 10:28:16 AM Dotan Cohen did opine:

> On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 19:51, rantingrick <rantingrick@gmail.com> wrote:
> > --------------------------------------------------
> >  Evidence: Tabs ARE superior!
> > --------------------------------------------------
> 
> I am also a recent spaces-to-tabs convert. One of the reasons is that
> I've discovered that programing in a non-fixed width font is a real
> pleasure, but the spaces are too narrow. Tabs alleviate that.
> 
> I'm still looking for the perfect programming font. Suggestions
> welcomed.

When you find it Dotan, let me know, I've been looking since the later 
'70's.

Cheers, gene
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Men will always be men -- no matter where they are.
		-- Harry Mudd, "Mudd's Women", stardate 1329.8

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#9709

* gene heskett (Sun, 17 Jul 2011 10:29:03 -0400)
> On Sunday, July 17, 2011 10:28:16 AM Dotan Cohen did opine:
> > I'm still looking for the perfect programming font. Suggestions
> > welcomed.
> 
> When you find it Dotan, let me know, I've been looking since the later
> '70's.

The "perfect programming font" is just the one that looks so good that 
you would also use it for writing email. Dejavu Sans Mono is pretty 
good. Consolas looks also looks good but it is Windows only.

Thorsten

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#9719

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Excerpts from Thorsten Kampe's message of Sun Jul 17 11:10:57 -0400 2011:
> The "perfect programming font" is just the one that looks so good that 
> you would also use it for writing email. Dejavu Sans Mono is pretty 
> good. Consolas looks also looks good but it is Windows only.
> 

I use inconsolata, but I  hate the look of it un-bold at small sizes, so
I keep it bold all the time. I've started using DejaVu very recently because
of that, it looks better on screen at small sizes (pixelsize=9 in my 
~/.Xdefaults, as opposed to the 12 and bold with inconsolata). Inconsolata
looks great on paper, though. DejaVu Sans Mono isn't the prettiest thing
but it certainly gets the job done.
-- 
Corey Richardson
  "Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves"
     -- Abraham Lincoln

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#9812

Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> writes:

> The "perfect programming font" is just the one that looks so good that 
> you would also use it for writing email. Dejavu Sans Mono is pretty 
> good. Consolas looks also looks good but it is Windows only.

How is Consolas Windows only? Not that I'd put it in my Windows-free
systems, but I don't see why you couldn't? Everything uses TrueType
fonts now.

I use a font called Dina on this laptop in Emacs. Not pretty but very
readable, has a slashed zero and the wide characters are clearly
separated, so something like www looks like three ws, not a block of
triangle wave.

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#9814

* Anssi Saari (Mon, 18 Jul 2011 19:28:49 +0300)
> 
> Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> writes:
> 
> > The "perfect programming font" is just the one that looks so good that 
> > you would also use it for writing email. Dejavu Sans Mono is pretty 
> > good. Consolas looks also looks good but it is Windows only.
> 
> How is Consolas Windows only? Not that I'd put it in my Windows-free
> systems, but I don't see why you couldn't?

"Consolas ships with all versions of Windows Vista and Windows 7, 
including Home Basic. If you’re using Visual Studio 2005, you can 
download Consolas from Microsoft. If not, you still may be able to use 
the font, though your mileage may vary. I was able to install it on a 
Windows XP SP1 machine that doesn’t have any version of Visual Studio. 
This PC does have the Microsoft .NET Framework SDK which creates various 
“Microsoft Visual Studio” folders under “Program Files”. These may cause 
the Consolas installer to think I do have VS 2005. I got no error 
messages, and the font was instantly available in all applications.

Another way to get Consolas is to download and install the free 
PowerPoint Viewer 2007 from Microsoft. This works on any computer with 
Windows 2000 SP4 or Windows XP SP1 or later. In addition to the 
PowerPoint Viewer 2007 itself, the installer will install the following 
fonts: Calibri, Cambria, Candara, Consolas, Constantia and Corbel. Only 
the Consolas font is monospaced. All these fonts ship with Windows Vista 
and Windows 7."

http://www.editpadpro.com/fonts.html

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#9817

Anssi Saari wrote:

> Thorsten Kampe <thorsten@thorstenkampe.de> writes:
>> The "perfect programming font" is just the one that looks so good that
>> you would also use it for writing email. Dejavu Sans Mono is pretty
>> good. Consolas looks also looks good but it is Windows only.
> 
> How is Consolas Windows only? Not that I'd put it in my Windows-free
> systems, but I don't see why you couldn't?

Consolas is _not_ free software, hence Inconsolata which is.
"Windows-only" is too strong a classification for Consolas, though.

> Everything uses TrueType fonts now.

Rather OpenType, but that is beside the point.

-- 
PointedEars

Bitte keine Kopien per E-Mail. / Please do not Cc: me.

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