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PEP8 and 4 spaces

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  PEP8 and 4 spaces Tobiah <tshepard@rcsreg.com> - 2014-07-03 10:31 -0700
    Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-07-03 13:46 -0400
    Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-07-03 19:02 +0000
      Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-07-03 14:40 -0500
        Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> - 2014-07-03 14:23 -0700
          Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2014-07-03 16:15 -0700
            Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-07-04 14:28 +0000
              Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-04 17:54 +0300
                Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-05 00:58 +1000
                Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-04 16:00 +0100
                  Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-04 18:12 +0300
                Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Simon Ward <simon+python@bleah.co.uk> - 2014-07-04 19:52 +0100
                Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-07-05 16:03 -0600
                Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-05 23:50 +0100
              Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-04 15:57 +0100
              Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2014-07-04 08:57 -0700
              Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-04 17:06 +0100
                Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Maciej Dziardziel <fiedzia@gmail.com> - 2014-07-04 09:19 -0700
                  Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-04 16:56 +0000
      Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Tobiah <toby@tobiah.org> - 2014-07-03 14:28 -0700
    Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-04 01:02 +0000
      Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-04 11:19 +1000
      Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-07-04 18:35 +1200
        Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-07-04 01:47 -0700
          Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-07-04 12:21 +0300
            Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-07-04 03:10 -0700
        Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-07-04 09:47 -0400
          Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Mihamina Rakotomandimby <mihamina.rakotomandimby@rktmb.org> - 2014-07-04 16:59 +0300
          Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-07-04 16:12 +0100
          Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces George Silva <georger.silva@gmail.com> - 2014-07-04 12:14 -0300
            Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-07-04 12:31 -0400
              Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces George Silva <georger.silva@gmail.com> - 2014-07-04 13:37 -0300
          Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-07-05 11:14 +1200
    Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-04 19:00 -0700
      Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-04 19:47 -0700
        Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-05 13:03 +1000
        Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-07-05 20:57 +1200
          Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-07-05 09:48 +0000
        OT: Flashlights [was Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-07-05 10:15 +0000
          Re: OT: Flashlights [was Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces] Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-07-06 08:41 -0700
            Re: OT: Flashlights [was Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-07 08:25 +1000
      Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-07-05 12:57 -0600
        Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-07-05 15:07 -0400
      Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2014-07-05 21:07 +0100
      Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-06 09:27 +1000
        Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2014-07-06 01:18 +0000
          Re: PEP8 and 4 spaces Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-07-06 11:28 +1000

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#73908 — PEP8 and 4 spaces

Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
to indent.  I prefer tabs.  Boss want's us to
unify.  The sole thing you get with spaces as
far as I can tell, is that someone loading the
code into Notepad will still see a 4 character
indent.  That may be true, but that same person
is going to have a difficult time editing the
code.

Anyway, I gave up the 80 char line length long
ago, having little feeling for some dolt on
a Weiss terminal that for some reason needs to
edit my code.  I feel rather the same about the
spaces and tabs, given that most people seem to
be using editors these days that are configurable
to show tabs a four characters.

Any evidence out there that this part of PEP8 is becoming
more optional or even obsolete, as I've heard others
say about the 80 char line length?

Just need ammo for when the hammer of code
unification comes down.

Thanks,

Tobiah

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#73910

In article <mailman.11462.1404408676.18130.python-list@python.org>,
 Tobiah <tshepard@rcsreg.com> wrote:

> Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces
> to indent.  I prefer tabs.
> [...]
> Just need ammo for when the hammer of code
> unification comes down.

There are so many battles to fight that are worth fighting.  This isn't 
one of them.  Just go with pep-8 and move on to solving real problems.

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#73914

On 2014-07-03, Tobiah <tshepard@rcsreg.com> wrote:

> Coworker takes PEP8 as gospel and uses 4 spaces to indent.  I prefer
> tabs.  Boss want's us to unify.  The sole thing you get with spaces
> as far as I can tell, is that someone loading the code into Notepad
> will still see a 4 character indent.

Or any editor at all.

> That may be true, but that same person is going to have a difficult
> time editing the code.

That's true with Notepad, but with dozens of other programming
editors, code indented with spaces will read and edit prefectly.
Not so for tab-indented code.

> Anyway, I gave up the 80 char line length long ago, having little
> feeling for some dolt

Same to you.

> on a Weiss terminal that for some reason needs to edit my code.  I
> feel rather the same about the spaces and tabs, given that most
> people seem to be using editors these days that are configurable to
> show tabs a four characters.
>
> Any evidence out there that this part of PEP8 is becoming more
> optional or even obsolete, as I've heard others say about the 80 char
> line length?
>
> Just need ammo for when the hammer of code unification comes down.

Just do the right thing and configure your editor to indent with
spaces.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Am I SHOPLIFTING?
                                  at               
                              gmail.com            

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#73917

On 2014-07-03 19:02, Grant Edwards wrote:
> > That may be true, but that same person is going to have a
> > difficult time editing the code.  
> 
> That's true with Notepad, but with dozens of other programming
> editors, code indented with spaces will read and edit prefectly.
> Not so for tab-indented code.

A broken editor isn't the world's best argument.  If I used an editor
that changed my line-endings, randomly altered arbitrary characters,
or tried to compress multiple spaces into one, I'd complain that the
editor was broken.  If a file has tab characters and my editor
doesn't let me properly deal with <tab> characters, then THE EDITOR IS
BROKEN.

That said, even though I'm "-0" on "use 4 spaces rather than tabs", I
conform to the standard to reduce interop headache even if I'd rather
use tabs.

-tkc

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#73922

On 07/03/2014 12:40 PM, Tim Chase wrote:
> On 2014-07-03 19:02, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> That may be true, but that same person is going to have a
>>> difficult time editing the code.
>>
>> That's true with Notepad, but with dozens of other programming
>> editors, code indented with spaces will read and edit prefectly.
>> Not so for tab-indented code.
>
> A broken editor isn't the world's best argument.  If I used an editor
> that changed my line-endings, randomly altered arbitrary characters,
> or tried to compress multiple spaces into one, I'd complain that the
> editor was broken.  If a file has tab characters and my editor
> doesn't let me properly deal with <tab> characters, then THE EDITOR IS
> BROKEN.
>
> That said, even though I'm "-0" on "use 4 spaces rather than tabs", I
> conform to the standard to reduce interop headache even if I'd rather
> use tabs.
>
> -tkc
>

I think your suggestion of having GIT handle the transformations
is the way we'll go.  nothing to quibble or worry about.  Well put
spaces in the repository since it still seems to be the community's
preference and I'll convert to tabs with GIT on the fly.  Problem
solved.

Thanks,

Tobiah

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#73925

On 7/3/2014 2:23 PM, Tobiah wrote:
> I think your suggestion of having GIT handle the transformations
> is the way we'll go.  nothing to quibble or worry about.  Well put
> spaces in the repository since it still seems to be the community's
> preference and I'll convert to tabs with GIT on the fly.  Problem
> solved.

Just watch out for mixed tabs and spaces in the same file -- a tab 
counts as eight spaces and can be used interchangeably in python2.

Emile

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#73956

On 2014-07-03, Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> wrote:
> On 7/3/2014 2:23 PM, Tobiah wrote:
>> I think your suggestion of having GIT handle the transformations
>> is the way we'll go.  nothing to quibble or worry about.  Well put
>> spaces in the repository since it still seems to be the community's
>> preference and I'll convert to tabs with GIT on the fly.  Problem
>> solved.
>
> Just watch out for mixed tabs and spaces in the same file -- a tab 
> counts as eight spaces and can be used interchangeably in python2.

Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
out, and should be stomped on hard.

-- 
Grant

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#73958

Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>:

> Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
> preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
> out, and should be stomped on hard.

Often one person writes the code and another person fixes bugs in it or
adds features to it. So if one uses tabs and the other refrains from
using them, you'll get the mixed style you abhor.

Even if we accepted that to be bad style, there's nothing on the screen
that would warn against such usage: the lines seemingly align perfectly,
and the code runs as expected.


Marko

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#73960

On Sat, Jul 5, 2014 at 12:54 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>:
>
>> Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
>> preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
>> out, and should be stomped on hard.
>
> Often one person writes the code and another person fixes bugs in it or
> adds features to it. So if one uses tabs and the other refrains from
> using them, you'll get the mixed style you abhor.
>
> Even if we accepted that to be bad style, there's nothing on the screen
> that would warn against such usage: the lines seemingly align perfectly,
> and the code runs as expected.

That depends on your editor. SciTE, for instance, will give a warning
any time indentation changes wrongly; if you mix tabs and spaces,
there'll be error markers at the beginning of each change (so if
there's one line with eight spaces amid a sea of tabs, that line and
the one below it will be marked).

ChrisA

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#73961

On 04/07/2014 15:54, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>:
>
>> Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
>> preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
>> out, and should be stomped on hard.
>
> Often one person writes the code and another person fixes bugs in it or
> adds features to it. So if one uses tabs and the other refrains from
> using them, you'll get the mixed style you abhor.
>
> Even if we accepted that to be bad style, there's nothing on the screen
> that would warn against such usage: the lines seemingly align perfectly,
> and the code runs as expected.
>
> Marko
>

Only for the very old fashioned Python 2, the modern Python 3 has booted 
mixed tabs and spaces into touch.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
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#73962

Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>:

> Only for the very old fashioned Python 2, the modern Python 3 has
> booted mixed tabs and spaces into touch.

Since Python 3 (alas!) got into the business of booting, it should have
booted tabs altogether.


Marko

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#73975

On 4 July 2014 15:54:50 BST, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>Even if we accepted that to be bad style, there's nothing on the screen
>that would warn against such usage: the lines seemingly align
>perfectly,
>and the code runs as expected.

If using vim, set list and listchars, you get to highlight tabs and trailing spaces.

Simon

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#73998

On 07/04/2014 08:54 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>:
> 
>> Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
>> preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
>> out, and should be stomped on hard.
> 
> Often one person writes the code and another person fixes bugs in it or
> adds features to it. So if one uses tabs and the other refrains from
> using them, you'll get the mixed style you abhor.
> 
> Even if we accepted that to be bad style, there's nothing on the screen
> that would warn against such usage: the lines seemingly align perfectly,
> and the code runs as expected.

Or more likely the lines seemingly align perfectly and the code does not
compile and run, or worse it does run but does not do the right thing.

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#73999

On 05/07/2014 23:03, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 07/04/2014 08:54 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>:
>>
>>> Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
>>> preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
>>> out, and should be stomped on hard.
>>
>> Often one person writes the code and another person fixes bugs in it or
>> adds features to it. So if one uses tabs and the other refrains from
>> using them, you'll get the mixed style you abhor.
>>
>> Even if we accepted that to be bad style, there's nothing on the screen
>> that would warn against such usage: the lines seemingly align perfectly,
>> and the code runs as expected.
>
> Or more likely the lines seemingly align perfectly and the code does not
> compile and run, or worse it does run but does not do the right thing.
>

Some commentators lead me to believe that the latter is perfectly 
acceptable so long as the code runs quickly.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

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#73959

On 04/07/2014 15:28, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2014-07-03, Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> wrote:
>> On 7/3/2014 2:23 PM, Tobiah wrote:
>>> I think your suggestion of having GIT handle the transformations
>>> is the way we'll go.  nothing to quibble or worry about.  Well put
>>> spaces in the repository since it still seems to be the community's
>>> preference and I'll convert to tabs with GIT on the fly.  Problem
>>> solved.
>>
>> Just watch out for mixed tabs and spaces in the same file -- a tab
>> counts as eight spaces and can be used interchangeably in python2.
>
> Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
> preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
> out, and should be stomped on hard.
>

Yet another reason to switch to Python 3.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

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#73965

On 7/4/2014 7:57 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 04/07/2014 15:28, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> On 2014-07-03, Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> wrote:
<snip>
>>> Just watch out for mixed tabs and spaces in the same file -- a tab
>>> counts as eight spaces and can be used interchangeably in python2.
>>
>> Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
>> preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
>> out, and should be stomped on hard.
>>
>
> Yet another reason to switch to Python 3.

For new projects, sure. But since the v1.5 days I've deployed the 
current python version a dozen times a year on various one-offs so that 
I'm sure I've got every python version deployed somewhere, and they just 
run, so why fix something that works. Or upgrade it when a three line 
fix addresses the issue.

Emile

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#73967

On 04/07/2014 16:57, Emile van Sebille wrote:
> On 7/4/2014 7:57 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>> On 04/07/2014 15:28, Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> On 2014-07-03, Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> wrote:
> <snip>
>>>> Just watch out for mixed tabs and spaces in the same file -- a tab
>>>> counts as eight spaces and can be used interchangeably in python2.
>>>
>>> Definitely. Indenting with tabs vs. spaces is mostly personal
>>> preference (though spaces are better!). But, mixing the two is right
>>> out, and should be stomped on hard.
>>>
>>
>> Yet another reason to switch to Python 3.
>
> For new projects, sure. But since the v1.5 days I've deployed the
> current python version a dozen times a year on various one-offs so that
> I'm sure I've got every python version deployed somewhere, and they just
> run, so why fix something that works. Or upgrade it when a three line
> fix addresses the issue.
>
> Emile
>

Surely the issue of mixing tabs and spaces is much more important than 
working systems? :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

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#73968

> Surely the issue of mixing tabs and spaces is much more important than 
> 
> working systems? :)


Python 3 considers tabs as an error and refuses to work.

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#73970

On Fri, 04 Jul 2014 09:19:24 -0700, Maciej Dziardziel wrote:

>> Surely the issue of mixing tabs and spaces is much more important than
>> working systems? :)
> 
> 
> Python 3 considers tabs as an error and refuses to work.


Incorrect.


[steve@ando ~]$ python3
Python 3.3.0rc3 (default, Sep 27 2012, 18:44:58)
[GCC 4.1.2 20080704 (Red Hat 4.1.2-52)] on linux
Type "help", "copyright", "credits" or "license" for more information.
=== startup script executed ===
py> code = """
... def func():
... \treturn 23
...
... print( func() + 1000 )
... """
py>
py> exec(code)
1023



-- 
Steven

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#73923

>> Anyway, I gave up the 80 char line length long ago, having little
>> feeling for some dolt
>
> Same to you.

Haha, the language was too strong.  The code I'm talking about is
only going to be seen by a small group of programmers.  The current
trio has all been here for over 20 years.  I'd be more concerned if
the code were ever to be made public.

>> on a Weiss terminal that for some reason needs to edit my code.  I
>> feel rather the same about the spaces and tabs, given that most
>> people seem to be using editors these days that are configurable to
>> show tabs a four characters.
>>
>> Any evidence out there that this part of PEP8 is becoming more
>> optional or even obsolete, as I've heard others say about the 80 char
>> line length?
>>
>> Just need ammo for when the hammer of code unification comes down.
>
> Just do the right thing and configure your editor to indent with
> spaces.
>

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