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Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk

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  Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk "Peter Tomcsanyi" <tomcsanyi@slovanet.sk> - 2014-06-24 20:11 +0200
    Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2014-06-25 08:58 +0200
      Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk "Peter Tomcsanyi" <tomcsanyi@slovanet.sk> - 2014-06-25 21:26 +0200
        Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2014-06-25 22:48 +0200
          Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk "Peter Tomcsanyi" <tomcsanyi@slovanet.sk> - 2014-06-26 12:39 +0200
            Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2014-06-26 14:37 +0200
              Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2014-06-26 20:38 +0200
                Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk Ned Deily <nad@acm.org> - 2014-06-26 15:29 -0700
              Re: Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk "Peter Tomcsanyi" <tomcsanyi@slovanet.sk> - 2014-06-27 23:52 +0200

#73556 — Python 3.4.1 installer on Mac links Python to old Tcl/Tk

Hello,

I use the Python 3.4.1 installer from
https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-341/

The Windows installation comes with Tcl/Tk version 8.6 which has some new 
features (compared to 8.5) that are very important to me.

But the Mac installer does not include Tcl/Tk and the page:
https://www.python.org/download/mac/tcltk
says:
"The Python 64-bit/32-bit Mac OS X installers for Python 3.4.x, 3.3.x, 
3.2.x, and 2.7.x dynamically link to Tcl/Tk 8.5 frameworks."

I tried to download and install ActiveTcl 8.6.1 for Mac, but Python does not 
use it...

Can anyone help me make Python 3.4.1 use Tcl/Tk 8.6 on Mac OS X (10.9.2, if 
that matters)?

Does anyone know why the Windows installer brings the newest version of 
Tcl/Tk while the Mac installer remains with the previous version? When this 
is planned to be changed?

Maybe this is not the right place for this kind of question... can anyone 
suggest a better place so that the question has a chance to be read by the 
person who is actually creating the installation packages? Should I try to 
send this as a bug to bugs.python.org?

Thanks,

Peter Tomcsanyi 

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#73564

Hi Peter,

Am 24.06.14 20:11, schrieb Peter Tomcsanyi:
> I use the Python 3.4.1 installer from
> https://www.python.org/downloads/release/python-341/
>
> The Windows installation comes with Tcl/Tk version 8.6 which has some
> new features (compared to 8.5) that are very important to me.

may I ask which features of 8.6 you need in particular? I'm just 
curious, because I thought that Python mainly uses the Tk part, and 
there has not been much of a difference in Tk between 8.5 and 8.6. In 
contrast, the Tcl language itself got massively enhanced (stackless 
execution engine, coroutines, core OO system, ...)

	Christian

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#73586

"Christian Gollwitzer" <auriocus@gmx.de> wrote in message 
news:lodruv$k45$1@dont-email.me...
> Hi Peter,
> may I ask which features of 8.6 you need in particular?

Hi Christian,

I need two of them:
- Angled text
- PNG image support with alpha channel (even if it seems a bit limited, 
particularly I still did not find the way to programmatically set/read the 
alpha channel of one individual pixel of the image, but maybe it is just my 
inability and a question to another newsgroup).

Peter

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#73590

Am 25.06.14 21:26, schrieb Peter Tomcsanyi:
> "Christian Gollwitzer" <auriocus@gmx.de> wrote in message
> news:lodruv$k45$1@dont-email.me...
>> may I ask which features of 8.6 you need in particular?
>
> I need two of them:
> - Angled text
> - PNG image support with alpha channel (even if it seems a bit limited,
> particularly I still did not find the way to programmatically set/read
> the alpha channel of one individual pixel of the image, but maybe it is
> just my inability and a question to another newsgroup).

For PNG image support you can load either the Img package which gives 
support for a large variety of images, or the smaller tkpng package. 
After loading these, Tk 8.5 will accept PNG as in 8.6. For angled text 
it's right, I don't know, there used to be some hacks before, it's 
probably not possible in a clean way. Glad to see, that you are pushing 
the adoption of 8.6 ;) (I'm a Tcl-guy)

	Christian

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#73615

"Christian Gollwitzer" <auriocus@gmx.de> wrote in message 
news:lofciv$nq6$1@dont-email.me...
> For PNG image support you can load either the Img package which gives 
> support for a large variety of images, or the smaller tkpng package.

My first Google search for
"tkpng" "python"
gave no usable results. So I am not sure if and how can I use these Tk 
extensions from Python...
And finally I want to show the picture(s) on a Tk-based Canvas on top of 
each other with properly handled semi-transparency.

In our project we want to use as little as possible additonal packages 
because we expect that the end-users will use several platforms (Windows, 
Mac, Linux) and installing any extra Python-related package on non-Windows 
platform seems to be a nightmare, at least that is the result of the past 
three months of experience.
The need to go to the command line level for such a basic thing like 
installing or uninstalling something seems to me like going 20 to 30 years 
back in history. We cannot expect that our end-users (especially the 
Mac-based ones) will have that expertise even if they have enough expertise 
to program in Python when it is finally correctly installed on their 
computers.

> For angled text it's right, I don't know, there used to be some hacks 
> before, it's probably not possible in a clean way.

I was actually negatively surprised by the lack of this very basic feature 
(especially in a vector-graphics-based environment) when I started with 
Python+Tk a few months ago, so I was very glad to see it in 8.6 and I 
immediately started using it on Windows. But then I receved complaints from 
a Mac user that it just does not work...

Peter

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#73616

Am 26.06.14 12:39, schrieb Peter Tomcsanyi:
> "Christian Gollwitzer" <auriocus@gmx.de> wrote in message
> news:lofciv$nq6$1@dont-email.me...
>> For PNG image support you can load either the Img package which gives
>> support for a large variety of images, or the smaller tkpng package.
>
> My first Google search for
> "tkpng" "python"
> gave no usable results. So I am not sure if and how can I use these Tk
> extensions from Python...

As I said, it doesn't have a special interface, you just load it and 
that's it. So if you do a tk.eval("package require tkpng"), your 
Tk.PhotoImage will magically recognize PNG. I don't know how widespread 
the installation is, but compilation is easy. An alternative is the 
widely available Img package, which adds support for many image formats 
like gif, bmp, jpeg, tga, tiff etc. On my Mac it came with the OS (I 
think); you'll do Tk.eval("package require Img"). Since there are no 
additional commands, it'll just work from Python as well. An alternative 
employed by Pythonistas is to load the image using PIL and create a Tk 
PhotoImage via the ImageTk bridge.

> And finally I want to show the picture(s) on a Tk-based Canvas on top of
> each other with properly handled semi-transparency.

This has been in the canvas for a long time, if you managed to create an 
image with an alpha channel.

> In our project we want to use as little as possible additonal packages
> because we expect that the end-users will use several platforms
> (Windows, Mac, Linux) and installing any extra Python-related package on
> non-Windows platform seems to be a nightmare, at least that is the
> result of the past three months of experience.

I understand.

> The need to go to the command line level for such a basic thing like
> installing or uninstalling something seems to me like going 20 to 30
> years back in history. We cannot expect that our end-users (especially
> the Mac-based ones) will have that expertise even if they have enough
> expertise to program in Python when it is finally correctly installed on
> their computers.

On the Mac you can create an APP bundle which contains everything, 
including extra dependencies. It is a folder with a special structure, 
you put it into a DMG archive and it matches the expectation a Mac user 
has of an "installer". Unfortunately these things are very 
system-dependent, and it's a lot of work to provide deployment (do 
program icons, setup file associations etc.)

>
>> For angled text it's right, I don't know, there used to be some hacks
>> before, it's probably not possible in a clean way.
>
> I was actually negatively surprised by the lack of this very basic
> feature (especially in a vector-graphics-based environment)

Yes this was a long-deferred feature due to its inhomogeneous 
implementation on the supported platforms. There were some extensions 
like 10 years ago to do it, but only in 8.6 (2012) it made it into the 
core Tk.

	Christian

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#73627

Am 26.06.14 14:37, schrieb Christian Gollwitzer:
> Am 26.06.14 12:39, schrieb Peter Tomcsanyi:
>> "Christian Gollwitzer" <auriocus@gmx.de> wrote in message
>> news:lofciv$nq6$1@dont-email.me...
>>> For PNG image support you can load either the Img package which gives
>>> support for a large variety of images, or the smaller tkpng package.
>>
>> My first Google search for
>> "tkpng" "python"
>> gave no usable results. So I am not sure if and how can I use these Tk
>> extensions from Python...
>
>  On my Mac it came with the OS (I
> think); you'll do Tk.eval("package require Img").

Just checked back with my vanilla VM install of Snow Leopard (10.6), 
that the Img package is installed. So doing this package require Img in 
case you detect 8.5 should solve your PNG problem on the Mac (you can do 
"package require Tk" to get the version number). I haven't checked alpha 
channel, though. For the rotated text there is no good solution. Of 
course, pushing people to install 8.6 is better:)

	Christian

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#73641

In article <lohpaq$6hr$1@dont-email.me>,
 Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> wrote:

> Am 26.06.14 14:37, schrieb Christian Gollwitzer:
> > Am 26.06.14 12:39, schrieb Peter Tomcsanyi:
> >> "Christian Gollwitzer" <auriocus@gmx.de> wrote in message
> >> news:lofciv$nq6$1@dont-email.me...
> >>> For PNG image support you can load either the Img package which gives
> >>> support for a large variety of images, or the smaller tkpng package.
> >>
> >> My first Google search for
> >> "tkpng" "python"
> >> gave no usable results. So I am not sure if and how can I use these Tk
> >> extensions from Python...
> >
> >  On my Mac it came with the OS (I
> > think); you'll do Tk.eval("package require Img").
> Just checked back with my vanilla VM install of Snow Leopard (10.6), 
> that the Img package is installed. So doing this package require Img in 
> case you detect 8.5 should solve your PNG problem on the Mac (you can do 
> "package require Tk" to get the version number). I haven't checked alpha 
> channel, though. For the rotated text there is no good solution. Of 
> course, pushing people to install 8.6 is better:)

Just a reminder that you should *not* depend on the Apple-supplied Tk 
8.5 in OS X 10.6.  That was the first release of Cocoa Tk and it has 
proven to be almost unusable, at least with IDLE and some other 
Tkinter-based apps.  Install a newer Tcl/Tk 8.5.x, like from ActiveTcl, 
and use a python that links with it, like from the python.org 
installers. The ActiveTcl installer also installs "teacup" which allows 
you to easily install additional Tcl packages.

-- 
 Ned Deily,
 nad@acm.org

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#73675

"Christian Gollwitzer" <auriocus@gmx.de> wrote in message 
news:loh45o$14g$1@dont-email.me...
> As I said, it doesn't have a special interface, you just load it and 
> that's it. So if you do a tk.eval("package require tkpng"), your 
> Tk.PhotoImage will magically recognize PNG.

I will try it on the Mac, but on Windows this does not work (with python.org 
installation of Python), and I need to have the same environment on both Win 
and Mac (at least).

> On the Mac you can create an APP bundle which contains everything, 
> including extra dependencies.

Thanks for the hint, I may consider it, but maybe it is not applicable to my 
project where the outcome should be in fact a few modules in Python and the 
en-users (college students) should program in Python using IDLE and those 
extra modules. So there is no "Main program" and there will be no 
"application".
Is an APP budle applicable for such a situation?

> Yes this was a long-deferred feature due to its inhomogeneous 
> implementation on the supported platforms. There were some extensions like 
> 10 years ago to do it, but only in 8.6 (2012) it made it into the core Tk.

Thanks for many insights into Tk and your hints.
I will try some of them in next days and maybe later I will come with some 
more questions.

Peter

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