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Groups > comp.lang.python > #72539 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2014-06-03 17:28 +0000 |
| Last post | 2014-06-08 13:09 +1200 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 132 — 27 participants |
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OT: This Swift thing Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-06-03 17:28 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-06-05 10:14 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 18:38 +1000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-06-05 11:42 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 22:48 +1000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-06-05 22:27 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-06-05 22:28 +0100
Re: OT: This Swift thing Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 23:03 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-06-06 13:21 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 01:54 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-06-07 10:20 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-06-07 09:32 +0100
Re: OT: This Swift thing Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-06-07 11:54 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2014-06-15 10:55 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-06-07 08:52 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-06-07 11:13 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-06-07 11:54 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-06-07 17:10 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-07 23:32 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-06-06 00:41 +0100
Re: OT: This Swift thing Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 01:54 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-06-05 20:13 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 02:35 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-06 05:45 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-06-06 13:39 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 01:54 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 02:03 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-06-05 02:09 -0700
Re: OT: This Swift thing Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 16:10 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-06-05 22:07 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 06:18 +1000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-06-05 23:12 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 23:02 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-06-05 22:23 +0100
Re: OT: This Swift thing Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 00:53 +0300
Re: OT: This Swift thing Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-06-05 23:13 +0100
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-06 02:52 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> - 2014-06-15 11:33 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-15 16:10 +0300
Re: OT: This Swift thing Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 07:36 +1000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-06-06 13:20 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 22:23 +1000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2014-06-07 09:30 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-05 18:18 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-06-06 13:11 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-06 13:06 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-06-10 15:32 +1000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 23:02 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 23:08 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 23:08 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 09:21 +1000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-06 03:16 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 13:27 +1000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 08:33 -0600
Re: OT: This Swift thing Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 01:44 +1000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 18:09 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 11:18 -0600
Re: OT: This Swift thing Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 13:49 -0500
Re: OT: This Swift thing Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 23:28 -0700
Re: OT: This Swift thing Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-06-06 10:25 +0200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 20:41 -0600
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-07 04:57 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-06-07 11:23 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-06-07 11:51 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-07 19:18 +0300
Re: OT: This Swift thing MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-06-08 15:10 +0100
Re: OT: This Swift thing Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 11:37 -0600
Re: OT: This Swift thing Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-06-07 14:11 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 13:00 -0600
Re: OT: This Swift thing Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-06-07 15:11 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-06-07 17:59 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-06-08 13:25 +1200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-07 23:38 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-06-07 20:09 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-08 10:37 +1000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-08 03:50 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-06-08 10:51 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2014-06-08 11:21 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-06-08 12:09 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2014-06-08 13:14 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 03:25 +1000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-06-08 18:09 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 04:16 +1000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-09 01:44 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-08 19:24 -0700
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-09 04:20 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-08 23:32 -0700
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-09 09:27 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 04:51 -0700
Re: OT: This Swift thing Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-06-11 19:41 +1200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-11 13:44 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-11 08:28 -0700
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-12 02:08 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-12 12:16 +1000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-12 09:06 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-06-12 09:34 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-06-12 23:32 +1200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2014-06-16 13:57 +0300
Re: OT: This Swift thing Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-06-17 10:12 +1200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-17 08:34 +1000
Re: OT: This Swift thing alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-06-17 11:16 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2014-06-18 07:41 +0100
Re: OT: This Swift thing Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-12 05:54 -0700
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-12 17:04 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-13 03:18 +1000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-12 18:59 -0700
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-13 03:26 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2014-06-12 14:43 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-06-27 23:21 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Joshua Landau <joshua@landau.ws> - 2014-06-15 02:51 +0100
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-15 03:33 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2014-06-09 10:11 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-09 17:27 +0300
Re: OT: This Swift thing Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-06-11 18:56 +1200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-06-09 09:14 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 07:56 -0600
Re: OT: This Swift thing Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-09 17:30 +0300
Re: OT: This Swift thing Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-08 19:35 -0700
Re: OT: This Swift thing Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-09 12:23 +1000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-06-11 19:50 +1200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-11 12:34 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-06-11 08:48 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-06-11 20:17 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-12 01:25 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-06-12 14:11 +1200
Re: OT: This Swift thing Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2014-06-11 23:06 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-06-13 08:55 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-06-09 21:51 -0400
Re: OT: This Swift thing Carlos Anselmo Dias <carlos@premium-sponsor.com> - 2014-06-08 18:56 +0100
Re: OT: This Swift thing Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-06-08 23:34 +0000
Re: OT: This Swift thing Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-08 19:32 -0700
Re: OT: This Swift thing Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-06-08 13:09 +1200
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| From | Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-03 17:28 +0000 |
| Subject | OT: This Swift thing |
| Message-ID | <mailman.10637.1401816526.18130.python-list@python.org> |
Dear Apple, Why should I be exited about an illegitmate child of Python, Go and JavaScript? Because it has curly brackets, no sane exception handling, and sucks less than Objective-C? Because init is spelled without double underscores? Because it faster than Python? Computers and smart phones are slow these days. And I guess Swift makes my 3g connection faster. It's ok to use in iOS apps. That would be it, I guess. Sturla
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| From | Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-05 10:14 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <8738fjkc2w.fsf@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> |
| In reply to | #72539 |
Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> writes: > Dear Apple, > > Why should I be exited about an illegitmate child of Python, Go and > JavaScript? [...] Type safety. (And with it comes better performance ---read battery life--- and better static analysis tools, etc.) LLVM (an Apple-managed project) for the middle- and back-end, and a brand new front-end incorporating a decent type system (including optional types for instance). Swift's memory management is similar to python's (ref. counting). Which makes me think that a subset of python with the same type safety would be an instant success. -- Alain.
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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-05 18:38 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.10731.1401957540.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #72690 |
On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: > Swift's memory management is similar to python's (ref. counting). Which > makes me think that a subset of python with the same type safety would > be an instant success. In the same way that function annotations to give type information were an instant success? ChrisA
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| From | Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-05 11:42 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <87y4xbitfy.fsf@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> |
| In reply to | #72693 |
Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes: > On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Alain Ketterlin > <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: >> Swift's memory management is similar to python's (ref. counting). Which >> makes me think that a subset of python with the same type safety would >> be an instant success. > > In the same way that function annotations to give type information > were an instant success? If they were useful, they would be used more. I have made several uses of (a variant of) http://code.activestate.com/recipes/578528-type-checking-using-python-3x-annotations/ -- Alain.
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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-05 22:48 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.10734.1401972524.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #72698 |
On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 7:42 PM, Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: > Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes: > >> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Alain Ketterlin >> <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: >>> Swift's memory management is similar to python's (ref. counting). Which >>> makes me think that a subset of python with the same type safety would >>> be an instant success. >> >> In the same way that function annotations to give type information >> were an instant success? > > If they were useful, they would be used more. I have made several uses > of (a variant of) > > http://code.activestate.com/recipes/578528-type-checking-using-python-3x-annotations/ Precisely. I don't see that there's a huge body of coders out there just itching to use "Python but with some type information", or we'd be seeing huge amounts of code, well, written in Python with type information. They've been seen as an interesting curiosity, perhaps, but not as "hey look, finally Python's massive problem is solved". So I don't think there's much call for a *new language* on the basis that it's "Python plus type information". There's more call for "Python with C-like syntax", given the number of times people complain about indentation. (There already is such a language, but it's somewhat obscure, so it's quite likely Apple aren't aware of its merits.) There might be call for "Python that can be compiled efficiently to the such-and-such backend". But not "Python with declared-type variables", not as a feature all of its own. ChrisA
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| From | Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-05 22:27 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <87ppinhzjt.fsf@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> |
| In reply to | #72702 |
Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes: > On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 7:42 PM, Alain Ketterlin > <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: >> Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes: >> >>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Alain Ketterlin >>> <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: >>>> Swift's memory management is similar to python's (ref. counting). Which >>>> makes me think that a subset of python with the same type safety would >>>> be an instant success. >>> >>> In the same way that function annotations to give type information >>> were an instant success? >> >> If they were useful, they would be used more. I have made several uses >> of (a variant of) >> >> http://code.activestate.com/recipes/578528-type-checking-using-python-3x-annotations/ > > Precisely. I don't see that there's a huge body of coders out there > just itching to use "Python but with some type information", or we'd > be seeing huge amounts of code, well, written in Python with type > information. They've been seen as an interesting curiosity, perhaps, > but not as "hey look, finally Python's massive problem is solved". So > I don't think there's much call for a *new language* on the basis that > it's "Python plus type information". I have seen dozens of projects where Python was dismissed because of the lack of static typing, and the lack of static analysis tools. I'm supervising our students during their internship periods in various industrial sectors. Many of these students suggest Python as the development language (they learned it and liked it), and the suggestion is (almost) always rejected, in favor of Java or C# or C/C++. -- Alain.
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| From | Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-05 22:28 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.10770.1402003808.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #72760 |
On 05/06/2014 21:27, Alain Ketterlin wrote: > Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes: > >> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 7:42 PM, Alain Ketterlin >> <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: >>> Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> writes: >>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 5, 2014 at 6:14 PM, Alain Ketterlin >>>> <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: >>>>> Swift's memory management is similar to python's (ref. counting). Which >>>>> makes me think that a subset of python with the same type safety would >>>>> be an instant success. >>>> >>>> In the same way that function annotations to give type information >>>> were an instant success? >>> >>> If they were useful, they would be used more. I have made several uses >>> of (a variant of) >>> >>> http://code.activestate.com/recipes/578528-type-checking-using-python-3x-annotations/ >> >> Precisely. I don't see that there's a huge body of coders out there >> just itching to use "Python but with some type information", or we'd >> be seeing huge amounts of code, well, written in Python with type >> information. They've been seen as an interesting curiosity, perhaps, >> but not as "hey look, finally Python's massive problem is solved". So >> I don't think there's much call for a *new language* on the basis that >> it's "Python plus type information". > > I have seen dozens of projects where Python was dismissed because of the > lack of static typing, and the lack of static analysis tools. I'm > supervising our students during their internship periods in various > industrial sectors. Many of these students suggest Python as the > development language (they learned it and liked it), and the suggestion > is (almost) always rejected, in favor of Java or C# or C/C++. > > -- Alain. > How many tears are shed as a result of these decisions? Or do they spend all afternoon at the pub celebrating as the code has compiled, while the poor, very hard done by Python programmers have to stay behind and test their code? Let's face it, we all know that for a statically compiled language the compiler catches all errors, so there's nothing to worry about. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
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| From | Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-05 23:03 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.10785.1402010108.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #72760 |
Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: > Many of these students suggest Python as the > development language (they learned it and liked it), and the suggestion > is (almost) always rejected, in favor of Java or C# or C/C++. And it was almost always the wrong decision... Sturla
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| From | Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-06 13:21 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <87oay6nv07.fsf@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> |
| In reply to | #72788 |
Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> writes: > Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: > >> Many of these students suggest Python as the >> development language (they learned it and liked it), and the suggestion >> is (almost) always rejected, in favor of Java or C# or C/C++. > > And it was almost always the wrong decision... I think they know better than you and me. -- Alain.
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| From | Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-07 01:54 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.10840.1402106084.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #72834 |
Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: > Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> writes: > >> Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: >> >>> Many of these students suggest Python as the >>> development language (they learned it and liked it), and the suggestion >>> is (almost) always rejected, in favor of Java or C# or C/C++. >> >> And it was almost always the wrong decision... > > I think they know better than you and me. Now it's my turn to say "oh, come on". Those who make these decisions have likely never written a line of code in their life. Sturla
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| From | Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-07 10:20 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <87zjhpm8q7.fsf@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> |
| In reply to | #72894 |
Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> writes: > Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: >> Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> writes: >> >>> Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: >>> >>>> Many of these students suggest Python as the >>>> development language (they learned it and liked it), and the suggestion >>>> is (almost) always rejected, in favor of Java or C# or C/C++. >>> >>> And it was almost always the wrong decision... >> >> I think they know better than you and me. > > Now it's my turn to say "oh, come on". Those who make these decisions have > likely never written a line of code in their life. This totally contradicst my experience. I've heard horror stories like everybody else, but I just have been lucky enough to work with people that very seriously evaluate their engineering decisions. -- Alain.
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| From | Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-07 09:32 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.10846.1402129920.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #72906 |
On 07/06/2014 09:20, Alain Ketterlin wrote: > Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> writes: > >> Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: >>> Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> writes: >>> >>>> Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Many of these students suggest Python as the >>>>> development language (they learned it and liked it), and the suggestion >>>>> is (almost) always rejected, in favor of Java or C# or C/C++. >>>> >>>> And it was almost always the wrong decision... >>> >>> I think they know better than you and me. >> >> Now it's my turn to say "oh, come on". Those who make these decisions have >> likely never written a line of code in their life. > > This totally contradicst my experience. I've heard horror stories like > everybody else, but I just have been lucky enough to work with people > that very seriously evaluate their engineering decisions. > > -- Alain. > Clearly manpower isn't an issue. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
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| From | Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-07 11:54 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <87vbsdm4e1.fsf@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> |
| In reply to | #72907 |
Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> writes: > On 07/06/2014 09:20, Alain Ketterlin wrote: >> Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> writes: >>>>>> Many of these students suggest Python as the >>>>>> development language (they learned it and liked it), and the suggestion >>>>>> is (almost) always rejected, in favor of Java or C# or C/C++. >>>>> >>>>> And it was almost always the wrong decision... >>>> >>>> I think they know better than you and me. >>> >>> Now it's my turn to say "oh, come on". Those who make these decisions have >>> likely never written a line of code in their life. >> >> This totally contradicst my experience. I've heard horror stories like >> everybody else, but I just have been lucky enough to work with people >> that very seriously evaluate their engineering decisions. > Clearly manpower isn't an issue. No. Cost is the issue (development, maintenance, operation, liability...). Want an example? Here is one: http://tech.slashdot.org/story/14/06/06/1443218/gm-names-and-fires-engineers-involved-in-faulty-ignition-switch -- Alain.
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| From | Johannes Bauer <dfnsonfsduifb@gmx.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-15 10:55 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <lnjn1p$em6$1@news.albasani.net> |
| In reply to | #72909 |
On 07.06.2014 11:54, Alain Ketterlin wrote: > No. Cost is the issue (development, maintenance, operation, > liability...). Want an example? Here is one: > > http://tech.slashdot.org/story/14/06/06/1443218/gm-names-and-fires-engineers-involved-in-faulty-ignition-switch Yeah this is totally believable. One rogue engineer who clearly did it all by himself. He just wanted to save the company a few dollars out of pure love for it. Clearly it's his and only his fault with no boundary conditions that could have influenced his decision in any meaningful ways. In fact, there's even a GM company memo that states "Hey Ray, just do what is sensible engineering-wise and don't worry about cost. It's kewl." But no, Ray just had to go rogue. Just had to do it his way. Man. Typical Ray thing. Cheers, Johannes -- >> Wo hattest Du das Beben nochmal GENAU vorhergesagt? > Zumindest nicht öffentlich! Ah, der neueste und bis heute genialste Streich unsere großen Kosmologen: Die Geheim-Vorhersage. - Karl Kaos über Rüdiger Thomas in dsa <hidbv3$om2$1@speranza.aioe.org>
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| From | Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-07 08:52 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <roy-F9E8C3.08523607062014@news.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #72906 |
In article <87zjhpm8q7.fsf@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr>, Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: > Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> writes: > > > Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: > >> Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> writes: > >> > >>> Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: > >>> > >>>> Many of these students suggest Python as the > >>>> development language (they learned it and liked it), and the suggestion > >>>> is (almost) always rejected, in favor of Java or C# or C/C++. > >>> > >>> And it was almost always the wrong decision... > >> > >> I think they know better than you and me. > > > > Now it's my turn to say "oh, come on". Those who make these decisions have > > likely never written a line of code in their life. > > This totally contradicst my experience. I've heard horror stories like > everybody else, but I just have been lucky enough to work with people > that very seriously evaluate their engineering decisions. You are lucky indeed. Trust me, in big companies, technical decisions are often made by people who are not using the technology.
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| From | Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-07 11:13 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.10851.1402154030.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #72912 |
On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 08:52:36 -0400, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> declaimed the
following:
>You are lucky indeed. Trust me, in big companies, technical decisions
>are often made by people who are not using the technology.
Or influenced by someone familiar with some tech and having a big
ego...
Many years ago, in a company to remain nameless, I was in a department
with ~130 programmers distributed among 3-4 main subsystems (batch analysis
[aka, post-processing of the daily tapes], planning [generating the
schedule for the next day], and real-time [operations using the schedule]).
The real-time group was 15-30 people using Macro-11 (PDP-11s if that dates
things). The rest of the department was pretty much all skilled VAX
FORTRAN-77.
The time came to port real-time from PDP-11 to a VAX system. A small
study was performed to determine what language would be used. Very small
study -- I think it was restricted to the 30 RT folks; I only learned of
the result after a choice had been made.
The candidates: VAX-11 Assembly, F77, C, Pascal.
Assembly was rejected since this was seen as a chance to modernize the
RT system, and few were familiar with it.
C was rejected as being unsafe, and too close to assembly.
F77 -- even with an overwhelming majority of skilled programmers
available to support development -- was rejected as being "old school"
The ego had familiarity with Pascal, and argued that Pascal was being
taught to students in college. Manager succumbed and declared VAX Pascal
would be the new RT system language.
That's when I saw the email summarizing the findings. My response was:
1) They were ignoring the massive experience in F77 available;
2) Pascal as being taught to students was probably TurboPascal (at least
this was late enough to not be UCSD P-System, which is what I'd learned it
on), with no support for real-time or really modularized development
(later, when I ended up having to fix a bug, I found I had to import the
F77 math library just to get sufficient math functions into Pascal);
3) As long as you went the whole mile to go from Macro-11 to Pascal, why
not fall the extra 6-feet to pick up VAX Ada -- which fixed all the flaws
in Pascal syntax AND was designed for real-time work.
About a decade later, said manager retired and confessed that the
choice of Pascal was a mistake (hearsay is that "ego" had given an
ultimatum -- Pascal, or /I/ leave the department). By the time of the
retirement, RT had moved again to HPUX boxes with x-windows using C...
While I was still plugging along on the F77 applications...
--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
wlfraed@ix.netcom.com HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
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| From | Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-07 11:54 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <roy-D91EFB.11541807062014@news.panix.com> |
| In reply to | #72914 |
In article <mailman.10851.1402154030.18130.python-list@python.org>, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote: > On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 08:52:36 -0400, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> declaimed the > following: > > > >You are lucky indeed. Trust me, in big companies, technical decisions > >are often made by people who are not using the technology. > > Or influenced by someone familiar with some tech and having a big > ego... > > Many years ago, in a company to remain nameless, I was in a department > with ~130 programmers distributed among 3-4 main subsystems (batch analysis > [aka, post-processing of the daily tapes], planning [generating the > schedule for the next day], and real-time [operations using the schedule]). > The real-time group was 15-30 people using Macro-11 (PDP-11s if that dates > things). The rest of the department was pretty much all skilled VAX > FORTRAN-77. > > The time came to port real-time from PDP-11 to a VAX system. A small > study was performed to determine what language would be used. Very small > study -- I think it was restricted to the 30 RT folks; I only learned of > the result after a choice had been made. > > The candidates: VAX-11 Assembly, F77, C, Pascal. What was wrong with just running the original pdp-11 binaries on the VAX in compatibility mode? :-)
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| From | Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-07 17:10 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.10862.1402175442.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #72917 |
On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 11:54:19 -0400, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> declaimed the
following:
>What was wrong with just running the original pdp-11 binaries on the VAX
>in compatibility mode? :-)
I suspect maintenance nightmare -- the systems being controlled kept
gaining capabilities that required modification to the ground control
software to command them.
--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
wlfraed@ix.netcom.com HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/
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| From | Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-07 23:32 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <5393a120$0$29988$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> |
| In reply to | #72914 |
On Sat, 07 Jun 2014 11:13:42 -0400, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: > About a decade later, said manager retired and confessed that the choice > of Pascal was a mistake There's Pascal and there's Pascal. Standard Pascal, I admit, is woefully unsuitable for real world work. But Pascal with suitable extensions was good enough for the first 6 generations of the Macintosh operating system and key applications, at a time when *nobody* was even coming close to doing what the Mac was capable of. (Admittedly, a certain number of the core OS libraries, most famously Quickdraw, were handwritten in assembly by a real genius.) By the mid-80s, Apple's SANE (Standard Apple Numeric Environment) was quite possibly the best environment for doing IEEE-754 numeric work anywhere. But of course, Macintoshes were toys, right, and got no respect, even when the Mac G4 was the first PC powerful enough to be classified by US export laws as a supercomputer. [Disclaimer: Pascal on the Mac might have been far ahead of the pack when it came to supporting IEEE-754, but it didn't have the vast number of (variable-quality) Fortran libraries available on other systems. And while it is true that the G4 was classified as a supercomputer, that was only for four months until the Clinton administration changed the laws. Apple, of course, played that for every cent of advertising as it could.] -- Steven D'Aprano http://import-that.dreamwidth.org/
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| From | Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-06 00:41 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.10788.1402011715.18130.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #72760 |
On 06/06/2014 00:03, Sturla Molden wrote: > Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> wrote: > >> Many of these students suggest Python as the >> development language (they learned it and liked it), and the suggestion >> is (almost) always rejected, in favor of Java or C# or C/C++. > > And it was almost always the wrong decision... > > Sturla > s/almost// :) -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
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