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immutable vs mutable

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  immutable vs mutable Deb Wyatt <codemonkey@inbox.com> - 2014-06-03 09:29 -0800
    Re: immutable vs mutable Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-06-03 15:35 -0500
    Re: immutable vs mutable Deb Wyatt <codemonkey@inbox.com> - 2014-06-03 17:14 -0800
    Re: immutable vs mutable Deb Wyatt <codemonkey@inbox.com> - 2014-06-03 17:14 -0800
      Re: immutable vs mutable Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-06-04 14:00 -0500
    Re: immutable vs mutable Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-06-03 18:24 -0700
      Re: immutable vs mutable Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-06-04 13:52 -0500
      Re: immutable vs mutable Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-06-04 13:52 -0500
    Re: immutable vs mutable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-04 12:27 +1000
      Re: immutable vs mutable Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-04 05:02 +0000
        Re: immutable vs mutable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-06-04 09:23 +0100
    Re: immutable vs mutable Deb Wyatt <codemonkey@inbox.com> - 2014-06-03 19:56 -0800
    Re: immutable vs mutable Deb Wyatt <codemonkey@inbox.com> - 2014-06-03 17:57 -0800
    Re: immutable vs mutable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-06-04 09:25 +0100

#72544 — immutable vs mutable

Thanks everyone for your help.  I also found this article while I was waiting for answers from this list, in case anybody else is interested in this topic:

http://www.spontaneoussymmetry.com/blog/archives/438 

Deb in WA, USA

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#72545

On 6/3/14 12:29 PM, Deb Wyatt wrote:

>
> http://www.spontaneoussymmetry.com/blog/archives/438
>
> Deb in WA, USA

The article is bogged down in unnecessary complications with regard to 
mutability (or not) and pass-by reference|value stuff. The author risks 
confusing her audience (those who are perhaps already confused about the 
nature of variables in Python).

The examples deal mostly with names and scope. The article in my opinion 
confuses a Python concept which is otherwise very straight-forward which 
has been beat to death on this forum.

marcus

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#72567

> 
> The examples deal mostly with names and scope. The article in my opinion
> confuses a Python concept which is otherwise very straight-forward which
> has been beat to death on this forum.
> 
> marcus

Well, I'm glad you find this concept straight-forward.  I guess I'm not as smart as you.  I won't beat it anymore.

Deb in WA, USA

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#72568

> 
> The examples deal mostly with names and scope. The article in my opinion
> confuses a Python concept which is otherwise very straight-forward which
> has been beat to death on this forum.
> 
> marcus

Well, I'm glad you find this concept straight-forward.  I guess I'm not as smart as you.  I won't beat it anymore.

Deb in WA, USA

____________________________________________________________
FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!
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#72654

On 6/3/14 8:14 PM, Deb Wyatt wrote:
>
> Well, I'm glad you find this concept straight-forward.
> I guess I'm not as smart as you.

Not at all.  I think you misunderstood me.  I read the article and I 
reviewed it (although brief, I stand by what I said).

To expand a bit, the article is poorly written and adds more confusion 
to the topic than it straightens out. (that is not a comment on your, or 
my, intelligence) Most of the article is based on a misunderstanding of 
the concept of python as variable, and that topic comes up here all the 
time with these at the top:

1) python does not have variables

2) python has names bound to objects

3) python of *course* has variables



marcus

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#72570

On 06/03/2014 06:14 PM, Deb Wyatt wrote:
> Mark Harris wrote:
>>
>> The examples deal mostly with names and scope. The article in my opinion
>> confuses a Python concept which is otherwise very straight-forward which
>> has been beat to death on this forum.
>
> Well, I'm glad you find this concept straight-forward.  I guess I'm not
>  as smart as you.  I won't beat it anymore.

Deb, do yourself a favor and just trash-can anything from Mark Harris.

And keep asking questions.

--
~Ethan~

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#72653

On 6/3/14 8:24 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
>
> Deb, do yourself a favor and just trash-can anything from Mark Harris.
>
    Ouch, that hurt.

    Did someone not get their coffee this morning?


:-)

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#72657

On 6/3/14 8:24 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:
>
> Deb, do yourself a favor and just trash-can anything from Mark Harris.
>
    Ouch, that hurt.

    Did someone not get their coffee this morning?


:-)

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#72577

On Wed, Jun 4, 2014 at 11:24 AM, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> On 06/03/2014 06:14 PM, Deb Wyatt wrote:
>>
>> Mark Harris wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> The examples deal mostly with names and scope. The article in my opinion
>>> confuses a Python concept which is otherwise very straight-forward which
>>> has been beat to death on this forum.
>>
>>
>> Well, I'm glad you find this concept straight-forward.  I guess I'm not
>>  as smart as you.  I won't beat it anymore.
>
>
> Deb, do yourself a favor and just trash-can anything from Mark Harris.

That may be slightly extreme...

> And keep asking questions.

... but this is definitely good advice. Want to get the most out of
your computer? Step one: Don't be afraid of it. Step two: Don't be
afraid of us, either. There's very little you can do on a computer
that's unexpectedly damaging, and it's easy to keep backups (tip: use
git/hg repositories and backups basically come "for free"); and we
don't bite, so keep on asking smart questions.

Want to be sure your questions are smart? Willing to put in a bit of
effort to make yourself welcomed not just courteously, but
enthusiastically? Check out this essay, one of the more famous ones:

http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

There are tips in there that will help you to make those really
awesome threads that we all dive into and enjoy helping with. You
learn what you wanted to know (and probably lots more besides), we
enjoy a thoroughly discussed topic, and the list/newsgroup archives
add that bit more to the internet's corpus of useful knowledge.
Everyone wins!

ChrisA

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#72592

On Wed, 04 Jun 2014 12:27:36 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

> Want to be sure your questions are smart? Willing to put in a bit of
> effort to make yourself welcomed not just courteously, but
> enthusiastically? Check out this essay, one of the more famous ones:
> 
> http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

I have found that (like much from Eric S Raymond) it's more idiosyncratic 
and pretentious than a useful educational tool. Although this is aimed at 
Java programmers, I think it is MUCH more accessible:

http://sscce.org/



-- 
Steven

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#72617

On 04/06/2014 06:02, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Wed, 04 Jun 2014 12:27:36 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> Want to be sure your questions are smart? Willing to put in a bit of
>> effort to make yourself welcomed not just courteously, but
>> enthusiastically? Check out this essay, one of the more famous ones:
>>
>> http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>
> I have found that (like much from Eric S Raymond) it's more idiosyncratic
> and pretentious than a useful educational tool. Although this is aimed at
> Java programmers, I think it is MUCH more accessible:
>
> http://sscce.org/
>

+1

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
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#72585

> 
>> And keep asking questions.
> 
> ... but this is definitely good advice. Want to get the most out of
> your computer? Step one: Don't be afraid of it. Step two: Don't be
> afraid of us, either. There's very little you can do on a computer
> that's unexpectedly damaging, and it's easy to keep backups (tip: use
> git/hg repositories and backups basically come "for free"); and we
> don't bite, so keep on asking smart questions.
> 
> Want to be sure your questions are smart? Willing to put in a bit of
> effort to make yourself welcomed not just courteously, but
> enthusiastically? Check out this essay, one of the more famous ones:
> 
> http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
> 
> There are tips in there that will help you to make those really
> awesome threads that we all dive into and enjoy helping with. You
> learn what you wanted to know (and probably lots more besides), we
> enjoy a thoroughly discussed topic, and the list/newsgroup archives
> add that bit more to the internet's corpus of useful knowledge.
> Everyone wins!
> 
> ChrisA
> --
>

Thank you for this link.  I will do my best to ask *smart* questions.  I struggle with explaining myself sometimes, especially when trying to grasp something that baffles me.
Deb in WA, USA

____________________________________________________________
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#72601

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ethan@stoneleaf.us
> Sent: Tue, 03 Jun 2014 18:24:01 -0700
> To: python-list@python.org
> Subject: Re: immutable vs mutable

> Deb, do yourself a favor and just trash-can anything from Mark Harris.
> 
> And keep asking questions.
> 
> --
> ~Ethan~

Oh, I will.  I found the article very helpful (I doubt Mr. Harris actually read it) and I've gotten a handle on the subject now, so I'll beat some other subjects as needed lol.  Have a pleasant day.

Deb in WA, USA

____________________________________________________________
FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop!
Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium

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#72618

On 04/06/2014 04:56, Deb Wyatt wrote:
>
> Thank you for this link.  I will do my best to ask *smart* questions.  I struggle with explaining myself sometimes, especially when trying to grasp something that baffles me.
> Deb in WA, USA
>

Welcome to the wonderful world of computing :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

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