Groups > comp.lang.python > #4380 > unrolled thread

What other languages use the same data model as Python?

Started by	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
First post	2011-05-01 08:45 +0000
Last post	2011-05-04 07:28 -0700
Articles	20 on this page of 176 — 34 participants

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What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-01 08:45 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Alec Taylor <alec.taylor6@gmail.com> - 2011-05-01 19:00 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-05-01 02:04 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-01 15:10 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-02 10:37 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-05-02 07:45 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-02 13:12 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-02 10:33 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-01 21:42 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-02 00:28 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-02 08:43 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 13:39 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-03 14:49 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-03 15:20 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 22:10 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-03 12:33 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-03 16:52 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 21:47 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 08:00 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 02:56 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-04 10:51 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-05-04 03:58 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 06:12 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 14:44 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 00:20 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 18:09 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 09:18 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 18:03 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 20:55 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 11:31 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 21:21 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 19:28 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-08 10:39 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2011-05-20 20:56 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-08 02:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-07 23:10 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 22:48 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-09 12:52 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 11:38 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-09 21:18 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 21:53 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-09 14:29 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2011-05-09 15:41 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-05-09 10:15 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-09 13:38 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-09 16:23 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 19:41 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-10 19:35 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-11 10:47 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-10 15:18 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2011-05-20 21:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-09 16:28 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 07:23 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:22 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2011-05-04 15:46 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:58 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 21:40 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 21:31 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:50 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 12:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 22:37 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 20:58 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 16:49 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 07:12 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 21:08 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 19:12 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:30 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? TheSaint <nobody@nowhere.net.no> - 2011-05-07 20:18 +0800
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 12:49 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:31 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 09:40 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 10:49 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:47 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-05 07:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 12:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:42 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:04 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-08 06:09 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-07 16:24 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-08 10:54 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 09:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-08 11:16 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-07 23:16 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 16:32 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 13:49 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-10 03:13 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-10 14:05 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-10 16:09 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-10 15:16 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 01:27 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-10 16:40 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 01:44 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 13:51 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2011-05-10 03:47 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-09 23:15 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-04 14:52 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 19:46 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-04 21:32 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 22:06 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-05 08:41 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 10:44 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 17:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 21:39 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 07:44 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 21:48 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 13:59 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-05 08:58 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 13:19 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-05 14:39 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 11:56 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 06:13 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:33 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-04 20:19 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 16:35 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-04 21:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 20:11 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mark Hammond <mhammond@skippinet.com.au> - 2011-05-05 12:09 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 23:01 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 22:19 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 10:31 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 15:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 11:29 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-06 08:01 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-06 13:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:56 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:58 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 17:39 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 13:13 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 15:12 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-05-04 20:23 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 23:55 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:21 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 08:09 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 07:34 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 11:30 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 10:56 -0500
RE: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Andreas Tawn <andreas.tawn@ubisoft.com> - 2011-05-05 18:27 +0200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:09 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-06 07:56 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:11 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:00 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:52 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 12:03 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:12 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-07 12:03 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:48 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-05 22:24 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:18 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-05-05 10:28 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 12:19 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 18:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 19:06 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-06 14:25 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 09:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 16:22 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 19:51 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:51 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 21:20 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-04 22:10 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 00:19 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:25 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 07:44 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 09:40 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 09:40 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2011-05-04 13:15 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 10:19 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 15:48 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 05:58 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:24 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@xemacs.org> - 2011-05-03 15:50 +0200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 07:28 -0700

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#4925

From	Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz>
Date	2011-05-08 10:54 +1200
Message-ID	<92m0u4Fkl5U1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#4916

Ben Finney wrote:

> No, I think not. The term “variable” usually comes with a strong
> expectation that every variable has exactly one name.

I would say that many variables don't have names *at all*,
unless you consider an expression such as a[i] to be
a "name". And if you *do* consider that to be a name,
then clearly one variable can have a great many names.

What would *you* call a[i]?

-- 
Greg

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#4928

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2011-05-08 09:43 +1000
Message-ID	<mailman.1299.1304811812.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4925

On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 8:54 AM, Gregory Ewing
<greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> Ben Finney wrote:
>
>> No, I think not. The term “variable” usually comes with a strong
>> expectation that every variable has exactly one name.
>
> I would say that many variables don't have names *at all*,
> unless you consider an expression such as a[i] to be
> a "name". And if you *do* consider that to be a name,
> then clearly one variable can have a great many names.
>
> What would *you* call a[i]?

a is a variable; i is a variable; a[i] is an expression. It's not a
single name, and if you had two variables i and j with the same value,
nobody would disagree that a[i] and a[j] ought to be the same thing.
That's the whole point of arrays/lists/etc/etc. But if you want to fry
your noggin, wrap your head around REXX's compound variables:

a=5
b=3
array.a.b="Hello" /* see, this is a two-dimensional array */

c=63/10
array.c="world!" /* see, we can have non-integers as array indices */

d=a+1
result = array.a.b", "array.d.b /* "Hello, world!" */

So what is a "name" in REXX? You have to evaluate the compound
variable as a set of tokens, then evaluate the whole thing again, and
is that the name? Because the resulting "name" might not be a valid
identifier...

Yep, it's good stuff.

Chris Angelico

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#4930

From	Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au>
Date	2011-05-08 11:16 +1000
Message-ID	<8762pmm1on.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
In reply to	#4925

Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> writes:

> Ben Finney wrote:
>
> > No, I think not. The term “variable” usually comes with a strong
> > expectation that every variable has exactly one name.
>
> I would say that many variables don't have names *at all*, unless you
> consider an expression such as a[i] to be a "name".

Again, our disagreement is not over the behaviour of Python, but over
what an average newcomer to Python can be expected to understand by the
term “variable” from its usage elsewhere in programming.

> What would *you* call a[i]?

What *I* would call that isn't relevant to the point. I do think it's
even more misleading to call that “a variable”, though, since it's not
what the Python docs call a variable and it's not what an average
newcomer would call a variable.

It's a reference. So is ‘a’, so is ‘i’; names are a special kind of
reference. In Python, references are how we get at objects within our
code, and names are one kind of reference.

-- 
 \      “Not using Microsoft products is like being a non-smoker 40 or |
  `\     50 years ago: You can choose not to smoke, yourself, but it's |
_o__)               hard to avoid second-hand smoke.” —Michael Tiemann |
Ben Finney

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#4944

From	Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com>
Date	2011-05-07 23:16 -0700
Message-ID	<mailman.1304.1304835421.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4925

On Sun, 08 May 2011 10:54:57 +1200, Gregory Ewing
<greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> declaimed the following in
gmane.comp.python.general:

> 
> What would *you* call a[i]?
>
	Depending upon the nature of the beast, I'd be tempted to call it a
"fully qualified name" or a "partially qualified name"

	a = [1, 2, 4, ("c", "d", "e")]

	a		is fully qualified if the object of interest is the entire
list		 [1, 2, 4, ["c", "d", "e"]]
		it is partially qualified when the object of interest is an
element of the list

	a[i]		is fully qualified if "i" represents an index of 0..3
and one is interested in any single element of the list, including the
sublist as a whole
		it is partially qualified if "i" represents the index 3 AND one
is interested in an element of the sublist.

	a[1] = 10

binds the fully qualified name "a[1]" to the object representing "10".
This just happens to also mutate the object denoted by the partially
qualified name "a".

-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
        wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#4946

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2011-05-08 16:32 +1000
Message-ID	<mailman.1306.1304836333.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4925

On Sun, May 8, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 08 May 2011 10:54:57 +1200, Gregory Ewing
> <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> declaimed the following in
> gmane.comp.python.general:
>
>>
>> What would *you* call a[i]?
>>
>        Depending upon the nature of the beast, I'd be tempted to call it a
> "fully qualified name" or a "partially qualified name"
>
>        a = [1, 2, 4, ("c", "d", "e")]

Why is an integer more or less important than a tuple? a[3] is no less
qualified than a[2]; each of them points to an object. One of those
objects happens to contain other objects.

What if you had:
stdio = [stdin, stdout, stderr]

They might be 'file' objects, or they might be integers (unlikely in
Python), or they could be pipes or other file-like objects, or they
might be some kind of special tee object that contains two file
objects. Let's say your standard I/O uses the notation
stdout.write('message') and that you have a subclass of tuple that
will apply the . operator to all its members (is that possible in
Python? If not, pretend it is). You could then execute
stdio[1]=(stdout,teeobject) to easily copy your screen output to
another file. At this point, you can actually pretend that stdio[0]
and stdio[1] are identical objects, but you can use stdio[1][1] and
you can't use stdio[0][1] - which means that, per your definition, one
of them is only partially qualified.

As Inigo Montoya said, there is too much - let me sum up. Lists/tuples
and integers are equally objects, so whether or not you have a 'name'
is not affected by what type of object it points to.

Chris Angelico

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#5049

From	Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz>
Date	2011-05-10 13:49 +1200
Message-ID	<92rjsiFfsoU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#4749

Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> It's just that the term "variable" is so useful and so familiar that it's 
> easy to use it even for languages that don't have variables in the C/
> Pascal/Fortran/etc sense.

Who says it has to have the Pascal/Fortran/etc sense? Why
should static languages have a monopoly on the use of the
term? That seems like a rather languagist attitude!

And BTW, applying it to Python is not inconsistent with its
usage in Pascal. In the technical vocabulary of Pascal,
a "variable" is anything that can appear on the left hand
side of an assignment. The analogous term in C is "lvalue".

-- 
Greg

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#5053

From	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date	2011-05-10 03:13 +0000
Message-ID	<4dc8ad47$0$29979$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to	#5049

On Tue, 10 May 2011 13:49:04 +1200, Gregory Ewing wrote:

> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
>> It's just that the term "variable" is so useful and so familiar that
>> it's easy to use it even for languages that don't have variables in the
>> C/ Pascal/Fortran/etc sense.
> 
> Who says it has to have the Pascal/Fortran/etc sense? Why should static
> languages have a monopoly on the use of the term? That seems like a
> rather languagist attitude!

Established usage. They came first, and outnumber us :/

But I wouldn't quite say they have a monopoly of the term. Where there is 
no risk of misunderstanding, it's fine to use the term. Mathematicians' 
"variable" is different still, but there's very little risk of 
misunderstanding. I'm far less cautious about using "variable" when I'm 
talking to you, because I know you won't be confused, than I would be 
when talking to a newbie, who may be.

When two people use the same words, but their understanding of them are 
slightly different, it's often easier to change the terminology than it 
is to break people's preconceptions and connotations.

> And BTW, applying it to Python is not inconsistent with its usage in
> Pascal. In the technical vocabulary of Pascal, a "variable" is anything
> that can appear on the left hand side of an assignment. The analogous
> term in C is "lvalue".

Sure, but if you think Python "variables" behave like Pascal "variables", 
you'll may be surprised by Python and wonder why integer arguments are 
call by value and list arguments are call by reference...

-- 
Steven

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#5068

From	Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-10 14:05 +0000
Message-ID	<iqbgne$h1n$1@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to	#5049

On 2011-05-10, Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> It's just that the term "variable" is so useful and so familiar that it's 
>> easy to use it even for languages that don't have variables in the C/
>> Pascal/Fortran/etc sense.
>
> Who says it has to have the Pascal/Fortran/etc sense?

Because it's easier to communicate if everybody agrees on what a word
means.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! The SAME WAVE keeps
                                  at               coming in and COLLAPSING
                              gmail.com            like a rayon MUU-MUU ...

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#5071

From	Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net>
Date	2011-05-10 16:09 +0100
Message-ID	<q11o98-i44.ln1@svn.schaathun.net>
In reply to	#5068

On Tue, 10 May 2011 14:05:34 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards
  <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
:  Because it's easier to communicate if everybody agrees on what a word
:  means.

Why should we agree on that particular word?  Are there any other words
we agree about?  Other key words, such as class, object, or function don't
have universal meanings.

:-)

-- 
:-- Hans Georg

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#5072

From	Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-10 15:16 +0000
Message-ID	<iqbkrq$5q1$1@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to	#5071

On 2011-05-10, Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 10 May 2011 14:05:34 +0000 (UTC), Grant Edwards
>  <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>:  Because it's easier to communicate if everybody agrees on what a word
>:  means.
>
> Why should we agree on that particular word?  Are there any other words
> we agree about?  Other key words, such as class, object, or function don't
> have universal meanings.

And what do we mean by "agree"?

What do we mean by "mean"?

It's turtles all they down...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow!
                                  at               
                              gmail.com

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#5073

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2011-05-11 01:27 +1000
Message-ID	<mailman.1382.1305041260.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#5072

On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 1:16 AM, Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> And what do we mean by "agree"?
>
> What do we mean by "mean"?
>
> It's turtles all they down...

When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean - neither
more nor less.
-- Humpty Dumpty.

Language is for communication. If we're not using the same meanings
for words, we will have problems.

Chris Angelico
PS. By "mean", I mean average. Except when I mean mean. But now I'm
just being mean.

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#5074

From	Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net>
Date	2011-05-10 16:40 +0100
Message-ID	<lr2o98-c84.ln1@svn.schaathun.net>
In reply to	#5073

On Wed, 11 May 2011 01:27:36 +1000, Chris Angelico
  <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
:  Language is for communication. If we're not using the same meanings
:  for words, we will have problems.

So if you adopt the word class to mean a type (or composite type),
as in python, what word would you use for a class of types (as in
haskell or ada)?

I think there are too many meanings and too few words ...

That's why some languages support overloading.

I am afraid we just need to cope with it, overloading I mean.

-- 
:-- Hans Georg

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#5075

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2011-05-11 01:44 +1000
Message-ID	<mailman.1383.1305042246.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#5074

On Wed, May 11, 2011 at 1:40 AM, Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 11 May 2011 01:27:36 +1000, Chris Angelico
>  <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> :  Language is for communication. If we're not using the same meanings
> :  for words, we will have problems.
>
> So if you adopt the word class to mean a type (or composite type),
> as in python, what word would you use for a class of types (as in
> haskell or ada)?
>
> I think there are too many meanings and too few words ...
>
> That's why some languages support overloading.

Of course. Nobody ever said that one name had to point to one value... oh wait.

Yes, Virginia, there is overloading.

Chris Angelico

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#5050

From	Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz>
Date	2011-05-10 13:51 +1200
Message-ID	<92rk1jFfsoU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#4749

Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> Or Chinese Gooseberries, better known by the name thought up by a 
> marketing firm, "kiwi fruit".

And I'm told that there is a language (one of the
Nordic ones, IIRC) where "kiwi" means "stone". So in
that country they wonder why they should be getting so
excited about something called a "stonefruit". :-)

-- 
Greg

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#5052

From	MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com>
Date	2011-05-10 03:47 +0100
Message-ID	<mailman.1368.1304995658.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#5050

On 10/05/2011 02:51, Gregory Ewing wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> Or Chinese Gooseberries, better known by the name thought up by a
>> marketing firm, "kiwi fruit".
>
> And I'm told that there is a language (one of the
> Nordic ones, IIRC) where "kiwi" means "stone". So in
> that country they wonder why they should be getting so
> excited about something called a "stonefruit". :-)
>
I had heard something about the meaning of the word "gift", so I
checked in Google Translate. For Swedish "gift" it says:

noun
1. POISON
2. VENOM
3. TOXIN
4. VIRUS

adjective
1. MARRIED
2. WEDDED

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#5058

From	Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com>
Date	2011-05-09 23:15 -0700
Message-ID	<mailman.1372.1305008409.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#5050

On Tue, 10 May 2011 03:47:40 +0100, MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com>
declaimed the following in gmane.comp.python.general:

> I had heard something about the meaning of the word "gift", so I
> checked in Google Translate. For Swedish "gift" it says:
> 
> noun
> 1. POISON
> 2. VENOM
> 3. TOXIN
> 4. VIRUS
> 
> adjective
> 1. MARRIED
> 2. WEDDED


	Guess that explains why I'm still single <G> If marriage is related
to poison!

-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
        wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#4666

From	John Nagle <nagle@animats.com>
Date	2011-05-04 14:52 -0700
Message-ID	<4dc1ca92$0$10552$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>
In reply to	#4606

On 5/4/2011 3:51 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Wed, 04 May 2011 02:56:28 -0700, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
>
>> Python is pass-by-value in a
>> meaningful sense, it's just that by saying that we say that the values
>> being passed are references/pointers. This is maybe one level of
>> abstraction below what's ideal,
>
> "Maybe"?
>
> Given the following statement of Python code:
>
>>>> x = "spam"
>
> what is the value of the variable x? Is it...?
>
> (1) The string "spam".
>
> (2) Some invisible, inaccessible, unknown data structure deep in the
> implementation of the Python virtual machine, which the coder cannot
> access in any way using pure Python code.
>
> (Possibly a pointer, but since it's an implementation detail, other
> implementations may make different choices.)
>
> (3) Something else.
>
>
> I argue that any answer except for (1) is (almost always) counter-
> productive: it adds more confusion than shedding light. It requires
> thinking at the wrong level, at the implementation level instead of the
> level of Python code. If we define "value" to mean the invisible,
> inaccessible reference, then that leaves no word to describe was the
> string "spam" is.
>
> (I say "almost always" counter-productive because abstractions leak, and
> sometimes you do need to think about implementation.)

    Yes.  In Python, the main leak involves the "is" operator and the 
"id()" function.  Consider:

 >>> x = "spam"
 >>> y = "spam"
 >>> x == y
True
 >>> x is y
True
 >>> z = x + 'a'
 >>> z = z[:4]
 >>> z
'spam'
 >>> x is z
False
 >>> x == z
True
 >>> id(x)
30980704
 >>> id(y)
30980704
 >>> id(z)
35681952

There, the abstraction has broken down.  x, y, and z all reference
the value "spam", but they reference two, not one or three, instances
of it.

    Arguably, Python should not allow "is" or "id()" on
immutable objects.  The programmer shouldn't be able to tell when
the system decides to optimize an immutable.

"is" is more of a problem than "id()"; "id()" is an explicit peek
into an implementation detail.  The "is" operator is a normal
part of the language, and can result in weird semantics.  Consider

 >>> 1 is (1+1-1)
True
 >>> 100000 is (100000+1-1)
False

That's a quirk of CPython's boxed number implementation.   All
integers are boxed, but there's a set of canned objects for
small integers.  CPython's range for this is -5 to +256,
incidentally.  That's visible through the "is" operator.
Arguably, it should not be.

				John Nagle

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#4678

From	harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net>
Date	2011-05-04 19:46 -0500
Message-ID	<5smwp.309$BG2.230@newsfe08.iad>
In reply to	#4666

John Nagle wrote:
>     Arguably, Python should not allow "is" or "id()" on
> immutable objects.  The programmer shouldn't be able to tell when
> the system decides to optimize an immutable.
>
> "is" is more of a problem than "id()"; "id()" is an explicit peek
> into an implementation detail.

Yes, yes, yes...  and I'll go you one more...

... Python should optimize on *all* immutables when possible.


For instance:

a = (1,2,3)
b = (1,2,3)

a == b  True

a is b  False

    To be consistent, in this case and others, a and b should reference
the same immutable tuple.


Or, as stated earlier, Python should not allow 'is' on immutable objects.


kind regards,
m harris

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#4693

From	John Nagle <nagle@animats.com>
Date	2011-05-04 21:32 -0700
Message-ID	<4dc22882$0$10557$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net>
In reply to	#4678

On 5/4/2011 5:46 PM, harrismh777 wrote:
> John Nagle wrote:
>> Arguably, Python should not allow "is" or "id()" on
>> immutable objects. The programmer shouldn't be able to tell when
>> the system decides to optimize an immutable.
>>
>> "is" is more of a problem than "id()"; "id()" is an explicit peek
>> into an implementation detail.
>
> Yes, yes, yes... and I'll go you one more...
>
> ... Python should optimize on *all* immutables when possible.
>
>
> For instance:
>
> a = (1,2,3)
> b = (1,2,3)
>
> a == b True
>
> a is b False
>
> To be consistent, in this case and others, a and b should reference
> the same immutable tuple.

     Actually, that's not necessarily an "optimization".  The cost of
looking up small tuples is probably higher than creating them.
There's also a potential optimization of duplicating tuples in
use by different threads, to reduce locking effort.  (CPython's
global lock is too dumb to exploit this, but there are other ways
to do it.)
>
>
> Or, as stated earlier, Python should not allow 'is' on immutable objects.

    A reasonable compromise would be that "is" is treated as "==" on
immutable objects.

					John Nagle

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#4708

From	Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz>
Date	2011-05-05 22:06 +1200
Message-ID	<92fb5jFa2lU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#4693

John Nagle wrote:

>    A reasonable compromise would be that "is" is treated as "==" on
> immutable objects.

That wouldn't work for tuples, which can contain references
to other objects that are not immutable.

-- 
Greg

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csiph-web

What other languages use the same data model as Python?

Contents

#4925

#4928

#4930

#4944

#4946

#5049

#5053

#5068

#5071

#5072

#5073

#5074

#5075

#5050

#5052

#5058

#4666

#4678

#4693

#4708