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Groups > comp.lang.python > #71942 > unrolled thread

How keep Python 3 moving forward

Started byMark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>
First post2014-05-23 21:16 +0100
Last post2014-05-24 14:06 +0000
Articles 20 on this page of 43 — 19 participants

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Contents

  How keep Python 3 moving forward Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-23 21:16 +0100
    Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-23 19:57 -0400
      Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-23 17:27 -0700
        Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-23 21:12 -0400
      Python 3 support for Fabric (was: How keep Python 3 moving forward) Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-24 14:29 +1000
      Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward - suds & Python 3 Jurko Gospodnetić <jurko.gospodnetic@pke.hr> - 2014-05-25 10:54 +0200
      Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2014-05-25 11:25 +0200
        Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-25 14:03 -0400
          Build tools, and Python 3 dependencies (was: How keep Python 3 moving forward) Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-26 13:16 +1000
            Re: Build tools, and Python 3 dependencies (was: How keep Python 3 moving forward) Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-26 08:44 -0400
              Re: Build tools, and Python 3 dependencies (was: How keep Python 3 moving forward) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-27 02:59 +0000
                Re: Build tools, and Python 3 dependencies (was: How keep Python 3 moving forward) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 20:54 -0700
              Re: Build tools, and Python 3 dependencies (was: How keep Python 3 moving forward) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-27 03:06 +0000
    Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-05-24 00:13 -0700
      Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward blindanagram <noone@nowhere.net> - 2014-05-24 15:35 +0100
        Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-24 12:59 +0300
          Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 03:40 -0700
          Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 09:03 -0700
            Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-24 22:49 +0300
              Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-24 21:11 +0100
              Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-24 20:27 -0400
                Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-05-24 23:43 -0700
                  Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-25 08:21 -0700
                    Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-25 10:38 -0700
                      Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-25 18:17 +0000
                        Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-05-25 13:56 -0500
                        Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-25 13:18 -0700
                      Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-25 11:34 -0700
                      Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-25 21:24 +0100
                      Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-05-25 18:22 -0400
                      Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-26 00:09 +0100
                        Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-05-26 07:03 -0700
                      Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 10:24 +1000
                      Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-25 17:32 -0700
                  Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-26 01:52 +1000
                  Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-25 17:32 +0100
                  Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-05-25 18:20 -0400
                  Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-25 21:32 -0400
          Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-24 12:08 -0700
          Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2014-05-24 21:44 +0200
        Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2014-05-24 11:02 -0700
        Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2014-05-25 20:45 -0400
      Re: How keep Python 3 moving forward Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-05-24 14:06 +0000

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#71981

FromTerry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu>
Date2014-05-24 20:27 -0400
Message-ID<mailman.10278.1400977663.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#71969
On 5/24/2014 3:49 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> Few people have Python 3 as an objective. What I'm saying is that if
> Python 3 had something everybody wants and nothing else provides, the
> people will come, even the legacy libraries will be ported then.

I cannot think of anything beyond the core that 'everybody' wants. 
However, Python 3.3 has unicode that works for all characters on all 
platforms, and some people want that.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#71984

Fromwxjmfauth@gmail.com
Date2014-05-24 23:43 -0700
Message-ID<656a6a98-edbd-4784-801f-df82db976084@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#71981
Le dimanche 25 mai 2014 02:27:11 UTC+2, Terry Reedy a écrit :
> On 5/24/2014 3:49 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > Few people have Python 3 as an objective. What I'm saying is that if
> 
> > Python 3 had something everybody wants and nothing else provides, the
> 
> > people will come, even the legacy libraries will be ported then.
> 
> 
> 
> I cannot think of anything beyond the core that 'everybody' wants. 
> 
> However, Python 3.3 has unicode that works for all characters on all 
> 
> platforms, and some people want that.
> 
> 
========
========

Python and unicode: a buggy hobbyist toy.
Voilà. Nothing either good or bad.

jmf

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#72014

FromEthan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us>
Date2014-05-25 08:21 -0700
Message-ID<mailman.10300.1401032784.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#71984
On 05/24/2014 11:43 PM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Python and unicode: a buggy hobbyist toy.
> Voilà. Nothing either good or bad.

I thought this was a moderated list.  What exactly are the moderators doing?

--
~Ethan~

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#72023

FromRustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com>
Date2014-05-25 10:38 -0700
Message-ID<7b84454a-3ff9-4d68-bb53-77c0fd9f333a@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#72014
On Sunday, May 25, 2014 8:51:18 PM UTC+5:30, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 05/24/2014 11:43 PM, jmf wrote:
> >
> > Python and unicode: a buggy hobbyist toy.
> > Voil�. Nothing either good or bad.
> 
> 
> I thought this was a moderated list.  What exactly are the moderators doing?


Your unicode is mojibaked  Ethan! Voil�.
You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D

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#72026

FromSteven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date2014-05-25 18:17 +0000
Message-ID<538233cb$0$29978$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to#72023
On Sun, 25 May 2014 10:38:42 -0700, Rustom Mody wrote:

> On Sunday, May 25, 2014 8:51:18 PM UTC+5:30, Ethan Furman wrote:
>> On 05/24/2014 11:43 PM, jmf wrote:
>> >
>> > Python and unicode: a buggy hobbyist toy. Voil�. Nothing either
>> > good or bad.
>> 
>> 
>> I thought this was a moderated list.  What exactly are the moderators
>> doing?
> 
> 
> Your unicode is mojibaked  Ethan! Voil�. You are hereby banished to a
> lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D

Nope, it's you. Ethan's post is fine. He correctly quotes JMF stating 
"Voilà" (that's LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH GRAVE), and Ethan's post 
correctly gives an encoding header:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed

(although, boo to Thunderbird for using a legacy encoding instead of 
UTF-8). So his post is fine. Whatever the problem is, it's at your end.



-- 
Steven D'Aprano
http://import-that.dreamwidth.org/

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#72028

FromTim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com>
Date2014-05-25 13:56 -0500
Message-ID<mailman.10310.1401044198.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#72026
On 2014-05-25 18:17, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Sun, 25 May 2014 10:38:42 -0700, Rustom Mody wrote:
> > Your unicode is mojibaked  Ethan! Voil�. You are hereby
> > banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D
> 
> Nope, it's you. Ethan's post is fine. He correctly quotes JMF
> stating "Voilà" (that's LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH GRAVE), and
> Ethan's post correctly gives an encoding header:
> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; format=flowed

I corroborate Steven's findings, that Ethan's post was correctly
encoded & displayed.

> (although, boo to Thunderbird for using a legacy encoding instead
> of UTF-8). So his post is fine. Whatever the problem is, it's at
> your end.

Thunderbird does offer the ability to change default character
encodings (Edit -> Preferences -> Display -> Formatting tab ->
Advanced...) for sending and receiving, but you have to go out of your
way to change them to something like UTF-8.  On the same preferences
screen TB provides the option to "when possible, use the default
character encoding in replies".

-tkc

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#72031

FromEthan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us>
Date2014-05-25 13:18 -0700
Message-ID<mailman.10313.1401050478.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#72026
On 05/25/2014 11:56 AM, Tim Chase wrote:
>
> Thunderbird does offer the ability to change default character
> encodings (Edit -> Preferences -> Display -> Formatting tab ->
> Advanced...) for sending and receiving, but you have to go out of your
> way to change them to something like UTF-8.  On the same preferences
> screen TB provides the option to "when possible, use the default
> character encoding in replies".

Thanks, fixed.  :)

--
~Ethan~

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#72029

FromEthan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us>
Date2014-05-25 11:34 -0700
Message-ID<mailman.10311.1401046497.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#72023
On 05/25/2014 10:38 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
>
> Your unicode is mojibaked  Ethan! Voil�.
> You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D

1.5 I could live with.  :(  Surely the company would count as cruel and 
unusual punishment?

--
~Ethan~

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#72030

FromMark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>
Date2014-05-25 21:24 +0100
Message-ID<mailman.10312.1401049494.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#72023
On 25/05/2014 19:34, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 05/25/2014 10:38 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
>>
>> Your unicode is mojibaked  Ethan! Voil�.
>> You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for
>> company :D
>
> 1.5 I could live with.  :(  Surely the company would count as cruel and
> unusual punishment?
>
> --
> ~Ethan~

The latter is definitely true, but does being king make up for it, on 
the grounds that he's clearly blind? :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

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#72034

FromDennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com>
Date2014-05-25 18:22 -0400
Message-ID<mailman.10316.1401056709.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#72023
On Sun, 25 May 2014 11:34:59 -0700, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us>
declaimed the following:

>On 05/25/2014 10:38 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
>>
>> Your unicode is mojibaked  Ethan! Voil�.
>> You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D
>
>1.5 I could live with.  :(  Surely the company would count as cruel and 
>unusual punishment?
>
	"company"... Or emergency rations?
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#72035

FromMark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>
Date2014-05-26 00:09 +0100
Message-ID<mailman.10317.1401059370.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#72023
On 25/05/2014 23:22, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Sun, 25 May 2014 11:34:59 -0700, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us>
> declaimed the following:
>
>> On 05/25/2014 10:38 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
>>>
>>> Your unicode is mojibaked  Ethan! Voil�.
>>> You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D
>>
>> 1.5 I could live with.  :(  Surely the company would count as cruel and
>> unusual punishment?
>>
> 	"company"... Or emergency rations?
>

I suspect that chewing razor blades would be preferable to listening to 
the permanent rant about what's wrong with the FSR.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

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#72065

Fromwxjmfauth@gmail.com
Date2014-05-26 07:03 -0700
Message-ID<e317b018-c5b7-442d-ae00-0954e59d5a85@googlegroups.com>
In reply to#72035
Le lundi 26 mai 2014 01:09:31 UTC+2, Mark Lawrence a écrit :
> On 25/05/2014 23:22, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> 
> > On Sun, 25 May 2014 11:34:59 -0700, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us>
> 
> > declaimed the following:
> 
> >
> 
> >> On 05/25/2014 10:38 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> 
> >>>
> 
> >>> Your unicode is mojibaked  Ethan! Voil�.
> 
> >>> You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D
> 
> >>
> 
> >> 1.5 I could live with.  :(  Surely the company would count as cruel and
> 
> >> unusual punishment?
> 
> >>
> 
> > 	"company"... Or emergency rations?
> 
> >
> 
> 
> 
> I suspect that chewing razor blades would be preferable to listening to 
> 
> the permanent rant about what's wrong with the FSR.
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
> 
> what you can do for our language.
> 
> 
> 
===========
===========

It's just a mathematical absurdity.
(No problems, to explain this to some
other people, who are agreeing).

jmf

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#72037

FromChris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date2014-05-26 10:24 +1000
Message-ID<mailman.10319.1401063890.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#72023
On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 8:22 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber
<wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 25 May 2014 11:34:59 -0700, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us>
> declaimed the following:
>
>>On 05/25/2014 10:38 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
>>>
>>> Your unicode is mojibaked  Ethan! Voil�.
>>> You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D
>>
>>1.5 I could live with.  :(  Surely the company would count as cruel and
>>unusual punishment?
>>
>         "company"... Or emergency rations?

Unfortunately not as effective as these guys:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=46017

ChrisA

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#72038

FromEthan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us>
Date2014-05-25 17:32 -0700
Message-ID<mailman.10320.1401065776.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#72023
On 05/25/2014 03:22 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Sun, 25 May 2014 11:34:59 -0700, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us>
> declaimed the following:
>
>> On 05/25/2014 10:38 AM, Rustom Mody wrote:
>>>
>>> Your unicode is mojibaked  Ethan! Voilà.
>>> You are hereby banished to a lonely island with python 1.5 and jmf for company :D
>>
>> 1.5 I could live with.  :(  Surely the company would count as cruel and
>> unusual punishment?
>>
> 	"company"... Or emergency rations?

Well, the thought had crossed my mind... I guess the deciding factor 
would have to be if I had any ketchup.

--
~Ethan~

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#72015

FromChris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date2014-05-26 01:52 +1000
Message-ID<mailman.10301.1401033129.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#71984
On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 1:21 AM, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> On 05/24/2014 11:43 PM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>> Python and unicode: a buggy hobbyist toy.
>> Voilà. Nothing either good or bad.
>
>
> I thought this was a moderated list.  What exactly are the moderators doing?

It's not a moderated list. We just collectively ignore the (few)
people who aren't saying anything worth reading.

ChrisA

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#72017

FromMark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>
Date2014-05-25 17:32 +0100
Message-ID<mailman.10302.1401035561.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#71984
On 25/05/2014 16:21, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 05/24/2014 11:43 PM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Python and unicode: a buggy hobbyist toy.
>> Voilà. Nothing either good or bad.
>
> I thought this was a moderated list.  What exactly are the moderators
> doing?
>
> --
> ~Ethan~
>

I don't think the list is moderated.  I do think this guy has had thirty 
strikes rather than three, so isn't it time he was finally given out?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

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#72033

FromDennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com>
Date2014-05-25 18:20 -0400
Message-ID<mailman.10315.1401056446.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#71984
On Sun, 25 May 2014 08:21:18 -0700, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us>
declaimed the following:

>On 05/24/2014 11:43 PM, wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> Python and unicode: a buggy hobbyist toy.
>> Voilà. Nothing either good or bad.
>
>I thought this was a moderated list.  What exactly are the moderators doing?
>

	Not only is it not moderated, but it's "sourced" from three places:
comp.lang.python (non-moderated Usenet newsgroup -- which is contaminated
by peering with GoogleGroups) -- which cross-links with: a Python-specific
mailing list -- which is then accessible as an NNTP group at
gmane.comp.python.general. c.l.p is definitely not moderated, the mailing
list and gmane group may have some spam filters in place but no real
moderation.

-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#72040

FromTerry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu>
Date2014-05-25 21:32 -0400
Message-ID<mailman.10321.1401067942.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#71984
On 5/25/2014 6:20 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> the mailing
> list and gmane group may have some spam filters in place but no real
> moderation.

They *do* have spam, structure, and source filters. Please do not 
mis-inform people that they post most anything to python-list without 
consequence.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#71967

FromEthan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us>
Date2014-05-24 12:08 -0700
Message-ID<mailman.10266.1400959892.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#71961
On 05/24/2014 09:03 AM, Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
> On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 2:59 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
 >>
>> Instead of focusing on bringing legacy libraries to Python3 (for which
>> there never seems to be a critical need), Python3 needs a brand new
>> killer module/application/library that is only available on Python3.
>
> Yikes! Backwards incompatibility is a poor excuse for NIH syndrome.
>
> Don't reinvent the wheel, please. If there's an existing
> implementation of a thing, that can save you a lot of work. Even if it
> ties you to Python 2, that's worth it, most of the time. If you want
> to migrate to Python 3, help that library forward, rather than trying
> to make some bespoke replacement you think will be a killer app.

+1

--
~Ethan~

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#71968

FromStefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de>
Date2014-05-24 21:44 +0200
Message-ID<mailman.10267.1400960696.18130.python-list@python.org>
In reply to#71961
Devin Jeanpierre, 24.05.2014 18:03:
> On Sat, May 24, 2014 at 2:59 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> blindanagram:
>> Instead of focusing on bringing legacy libraries to Python3 (for which
>> there never seems to be a critical need), Python3 needs a brand new
>> killer module/application/library that is only available on Python3.
>>
>> Asyncio is a baby step in that direction.
> 
> Yikes! Backwards incompatibility is a poor excuse for NIH syndrome.
> 
> Don't reinvent the wheel, please. If there's an existing
> implementation of a thing, that can save you a lot of work. Even if it
> ties you to Python 2, that's worth it, most of the time. If you want
> to migrate to Python 3, help that library forward, rather than trying
> to make some bespoke replacement you think will be a killer app.

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000069.html

There might still be something that doesn't exist yet, and if you start
working on that, going with Py3 is certainly the right way. For everything
that's there already, however, reusing working, tested code is way better.
And making it work in Py3.

Stefan

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