Groups > comp.lang.python > #4380 > unrolled thread

What other languages use the same data model as Python?

Started by	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
First post	2011-05-01 08:45 +0000
Last post	2011-05-04 07:28 -0700
Articles	20 on this page of 176 — 34 participants

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What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-01 08:45 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Alec Taylor <alec.taylor6@gmail.com> - 2011-05-01 19:00 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-05-01 02:04 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-01 15:10 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-02 10:37 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-05-02 07:45 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-02 13:12 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-02 10:33 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-01 21:42 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-02 00:28 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-02 08:43 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 13:39 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-03 14:49 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-03 15:20 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 22:10 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-03 12:33 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-03 16:52 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 21:47 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 08:00 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 02:56 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-04 10:51 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-05-04 03:58 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 06:12 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 14:44 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 00:20 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 18:09 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 09:18 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 18:03 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 20:55 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 11:31 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 21:21 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 19:28 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-08 10:39 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2011-05-20 20:56 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-08 02:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-07 23:10 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 22:48 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-09 12:52 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 11:38 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-09 21:18 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 21:53 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-09 14:29 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2011-05-09 15:41 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-05-09 10:15 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-09 13:38 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-09 16:23 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 19:41 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-10 19:35 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-11 10:47 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-10 15:18 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2011-05-20 21:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-09 16:28 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 07:23 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:22 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2011-05-04 15:46 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:58 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 21:40 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 21:31 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:50 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 12:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 22:37 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 20:58 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 16:49 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 07:12 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 21:08 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 19:12 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:30 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? TheSaint <nobody@nowhere.net.no> - 2011-05-07 20:18 +0800
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 12:49 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:31 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 09:40 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 10:49 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:47 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-05 07:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 12:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:42 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:04 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-08 06:09 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-07 16:24 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-08 10:54 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 09:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-08 11:16 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-07 23:16 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 16:32 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 13:49 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-10 03:13 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-10 14:05 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-10 16:09 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-10 15:16 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 01:27 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-10 16:40 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 01:44 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 13:51 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2011-05-10 03:47 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-09 23:15 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-04 14:52 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 19:46 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-04 21:32 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 22:06 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-05 08:41 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 10:44 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 17:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 21:39 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 07:44 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 21:48 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 13:59 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-05 08:58 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 13:19 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-05 14:39 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 11:56 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 06:13 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:33 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-04 20:19 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 16:35 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-04 21:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 20:11 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mark Hammond <mhammond@skippinet.com.au> - 2011-05-05 12:09 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 23:01 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 22:19 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 10:31 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 15:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 11:29 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-06 08:01 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-06 13:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:56 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:58 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 17:39 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 13:13 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 15:12 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-05-04 20:23 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 23:55 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:21 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 08:09 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 07:34 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 11:30 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 10:56 -0500
RE: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Andreas Tawn <andreas.tawn@ubisoft.com> - 2011-05-05 18:27 +0200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:09 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-06 07:56 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:11 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:00 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:52 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 12:03 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:12 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-07 12:03 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:48 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-05 22:24 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:18 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-05-05 10:28 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 12:19 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 18:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 19:06 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-06 14:25 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 09:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 16:22 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 19:51 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:51 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 21:20 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-04 22:10 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 00:19 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:25 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 07:44 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 09:40 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 09:40 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2011-05-04 13:15 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 10:19 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 15:48 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 05:58 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:24 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@xemacs.org> - 2011-05-03 15:50 +0200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 07:28 -0700

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#4757

From	Andreas Tawn <andreas.tawn@ubisoft.com>
Date	2011-05-05 18:27 +0200
Message-ID	<mailman.1195.1304613424.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4746

> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
> > Some day, we'll be using quantum computers without memory addresses,
> [ ...
> ] it will still be possible to
> > represent data indirectly via *some* mechanism.
> 
> :)  Cool!  Pass-by-coincidence!  And Python 3 already has dibs on the
> 'nonlocal' keyword!
> 
> 	Mel.
> 

If True and False:
    waveFunction.collapse(cat)


That's going to be fun ;o)

Cheers,

Drea

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#4900

From	Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz>
Date	2011-05-07 22:09 +1200
Message-ID	<92kk36F31mU2@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#4757

Andreas Tawn wrote:

> If True and False:
>     waveFunction.collapse(cat)

Call-by-entanglement would be interesting. Anything that the
callee does to the parameter would affect the caller, but
you would only be able to tell by examining a trace of the
output afterwards.

-- 
Greg

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#4778

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2011-05-06 07:56 +1000
Message-ID	<mailman.1205.1304632581.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4746

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 2:27 AM, Andreas Tawn <andreas.tawn@ubisoft.com> wrote:
> If True and False:
>    waveFunction.collapse(cat)
>
>
> That's going to be fun ;o)

If a process crashes and init isn't there to hear it, does it produce
a core dump?

Chris Angelico

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#4724

From	Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-05 14:14 +0000
Message-ID	<ipubbu$e4q$1@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to	#4680

On 2011-05-05, harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> The "pass by value" and "pass by reference" parameter passing
>> mechanisms are pretty well defined, and C uses "pass by value".
>
> Yeah, that's kind-a funny, cause I'm one of the guys (old farts) that 
> helped define them....

I give up.  You don't seem to understand the C language defintion or
what is commonly meant by "pass by reference".

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Inside, I'm already
                                  at               SOBBING!
                              gmail.com

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#4743

From	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date	2011-05-05 15:11 +0000
Message-ID	<4dc2be25$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to	#4724

On Thu, 05 May 2011 14:14:22 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:

> On 2011-05-05, harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> wrote:
>> Grant Edwards wrote:
>>> The "pass by value" and "pass by reference" parameter passing
>>> mechanisms are pretty well defined, and C uses "pass by value".
>>
>> Yeah, that's kind-a funny, cause I'm one of the guys (old farts) that
>> helped define them....
> 
> I give up.  You don't seem to understand the C language defintion or
> what is commonly meant by "pass by reference".

In fairness, he's not the only one. M Harris has twice now linked to an 
IBM site that describes pass-by-reference in C in terms of passing a 
pointer to the argument you want as the argument. Admittedly, doing so 
gives you almost the same behaviour, except that you have to dereference 
the pointers yourself.

That's a pretty big difference though, and gets to the core of the 
argument: it's a bit like arguing that manual cars are fitted with 
exactly the same automatic transmission as auto cars, it's just that you 
have to engage the clutch and shift gears yourself.

-- 
Steven

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#4753

From	harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net>
Date	2011-05-05 11:00 -0500
Message-ID	<XQzwp.18168$Ot6.2769@newsfe15.iad>
In reply to	#4743

Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> In fairness, he's not the only one. M Harris has twice now linked to an
> IBM site that describes pass-by-reference in C in terms of passing a
> pointer to the argument you want as the argument. Admittedly, doing so
> gives you almost the same behaviour, except that you have to dereference
> the pointers yourself.
>
> That's a pretty big difference though, and gets to the core of the
> argument: it's a bit like arguing that manual cars are fitted with
> exactly the same automatic transmission as auto cars, it's just that you
> have to engage the clutch and shift gears yourself.

... and actually, if you feel it just right and you have just the right 
synchro-mesh setup, you can slide from 3rd into 4th without every 
touching the clutch peddle... and if that isn't automatic, I don't know 
what is....   man those were the days... now I just press a button that 
says, "Auto 4-wheel Lock", set the gps, and take a nap...

:)

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#4760

From	Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-05 16:52 +0000
Message-ID	<ipukl4$jjf$2@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to	#4753

On 2011-05-05, harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> In fairness, he's not the only one. M Harris has twice now linked to an
>> IBM site that describes pass-by-reference in C in terms of passing a
>> pointer to the argument you want as the argument. Admittedly, doing so
>> gives you almost the same behaviour, except that you have to dereference
>> the pointers yourself.
>>
>> That's a pretty big difference though, and gets to the core of the
>> argument: it's a bit like arguing that manual cars are fitted with
>> exactly the same automatic transmission as auto cars, it's just that you
>> have to engage the clutch and shift gears yourself.
>
>
> ... and actually, if you feel it just right and you have just the
> right synchro-mesh setup, you can slide from 3rd into 4th without
> every touching the clutch peddle...

That's possible on pretty much any modern automotive or small-truck
transmission, and it's not really that hard to do.  I can go from 1st
up to 5th and back down to 1st without touching the clutch.  I don't
as a habit do it, because it puts unnecessary wear on the syncros (and
I've had cars with pretty weak syncros -- Alfa-Romeo Spyders were
famous for the 2nd gear syncro wearing out).

> and if that isn't automatic, I don't know what is....

No, that's _not_ automatic if you have to do it yourself.  It's
automatic when it happens without user-intervention.

Now I think you're trolling...

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I want to dress you
                                  at               up as TALLULAH BANKHEAD and
                              gmail.com            cover you with VASELINE and
                                                   WHEAT THINS ...

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#4765

From	harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net>
Date	2011-05-05 12:03 -0500
Message-ID	<ALAwp.18172$Ot6.18129@newsfe15.iad>
In reply to	#4760

Grant Edwards wrote:
> No, that's_not_  automatic if you have to do it yourself.  It's
> automatic when it happens without user-intervention.
>
> Now I think you're trolling...

... no, I was only kidding... :)

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#4901

From	Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz>
Date	2011-05-07 22:12 +1200
Message-ID	<92kk8bF31mU3@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#4760

Grant Edwards wrote:
> if you feel it just right and you have just the
>>right synchro-mesh setup, you can slide from 3rd into 4th without
>>every touching the clutch peddle...
> 
>>and if that isn't automatic, I don't know what is....
> 
> No, that's _not_ automatic if you have to do it yourself.  It's
> automatic when it happens without user-intervention.

Does it count if the transmission is activated
by saying "Home, Jeeves"?

-- 
Greg

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#4903

From	Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-07 12:03 +0000
Message-ID	<iq3cf3$12p$1@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to	#4901

On 2011-05-07, Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> if you feel it just right and you have just the
>>>right synchro-mesh setup, you can slide from 3rd into 4th without
>>>every touching the clutch peddle...
>> 
>>>and if that isn't automatic, I don't know what is....
>> 
>> No, that's _not_ automatic if you have to do it yourself.  It's
>> automatic when it happens without user-intervention.
>
> Does it count if the transmission is activated
> by saying "Home, Jeeves"?

Only if your name is Bertie Wooster.

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#4759

From	Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-05 16:48 +0000
Message-ID	<ipukdq$jjf$1@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to	#4743

On 2011-05-05, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Thu, 05 May 2011 14:14:22 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> On 2011-05-05, harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> wrote:
>>> Grant Edwards wrote:
>>>> The "pass by value" and "pass by reference" parameter passing
>>>> mechanisms are pretty well defined, and C uses "pass by value".
>>>
>>> Yeah, that's kind-a funny, cause I'm one of the guys (old farts) that
>>> helped define them....
>> 
>> I give up.  You don't seem to understand the C language defintion or
>> what is commonly meant by "pass by reference".
>
>
> In fairness, he's not the only one. M Harris has twice now linked to an 
> IBM site that describes pass-by-reference in C in terms of passing a 
> pointer to the argument you want as the argument. Admittedly, doing so 
> gives you almost the same behaviour, except that you have to dereference 
> the pointers yourself.
>
> That's a pretty big difference though, and gets to the core of the 
> argument: it's a bit like arguing that manual cars are fitted with 
> exactly the same automatic transmission as auto cars, it's just that
> you have to engage the clutch and shift gears yourself.

I like that analogy.

   "My car has an automatic transmission except you have to shift
    gears yourself with that lever and that it has a clutch operated
    by that pedal instead of a hydrostatic torque converter."

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! ... bleakness
                                  at               ... desolation ... plastic
                              gmail.com            forks ...

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#4796

From	Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com>
Date	2011-05-05 22:24 -0700
Message-ID	<mailman.1223.1304659485.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4743

On 05 May 2011 15:11:33 GMT, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> declaimed the following in
gmane.comp.python.general:

> That's a pretty big difference though, and gets to the core of the 
> argument: it's a bit like arguing that manual cars are fitted with 
> exactly the same automatic transmission as auto cars, it's just that you 
> have to engage the clutch and shift gears yourself.

	Eeek!

	Even before I had a driver's license I knew that common manual
transmissions used multiple parallel shafts with a number of
free-spinning gears and splined synchros to engage a pair... Whereas the
typical automatic used concentric planetary gear systems with friction
clutches to lock/unlock particular combinations on sun/ring/planets.

	Now... Motorcycle and racing sequential shifters are a whole
different mesh...
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
        wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#4755

From	harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net>
Date	2011-05-05 11:18 -0500
Message-ID	<G5Awp.19315$uh5.11722@newsfe02.iad>
In reply to	#4724

Grant Edwards wrote:
> I give up.  You don't seem to understand the C language defintion or
> what is commonly meant by "pass by reference".
>

ah, don't give up... here is a link that might help to clarify some of 
these semantics...   me thinks:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pass_by_reference#Call_by_value

kind regards,
m harris

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#4767

From	Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us>
Date	2011-05-05 10:28 -0700
Message-ID	<mailman.1199.1304615797.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4755

harrismh777 wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>> I give up.  You don't seem to understand the C language defintion or
>> what is commonly meant by "pass by reference".
>>
> 
> ah, don't give up... here is a link that might help to clarify some of 
> these semantics...   me thinks:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pass_by_reference#Call_by_value

Indeed it does (emphasis added):

"In call-by-reference evaluation (also referred to as 
pass-by-reference), a function receives an *implicit* reference to a 
variable used as argument"

In C the the reference is explicit, which the article states in the next 
paragraph:

"Even among languages that don't exactly support call-by-reference, 
many, including C and ML, support explicit references (objects that 
refer to other objects), such as pointers"

~Ethan~

PS
My thanks to those who kept explaining in various ways about the 
difference between language supported features and programmer constructs 
-- I hadn't realized before this thread that call-by-reference was not a 
language feature of C, but rather a programmer-implemented feature using 
the C operators.

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#4768

From	harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net>
Date	2011-05-05 12:19 -0500
Message-ID	<D_Awp.15846$rB2.14085@newsfe21.iad>
In reply to	#4767

Ethan Furman wrote:
> PS
> My thanks to those who kept explaining in various ways about the
> difference between language supported features and programmer constructs
> -- I hadn't realized before this thread that call-by-reference was not a
> language feature of C, but rather a programmer-implemented feature using
> the C operators.

    You are most welcome.   :)

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#4846

From	Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net>
Date	2011-05-06 18:17 +0000
Message-ID	<iq1e0j022t7@news2.newsguy.com>
In reply to	#4680

In article <GOmwp.13554$Vp.9996@newsfe14.iad>
harrismh777  <harrismh777@charter.net> wrote:
>There may be some language somewhere that does pass-by-reference which 
>is not implemented under the hood as pointers, but I can't think of 
>any...   'cause like I've been saying, way down under the hood, we only 
>have direct and indirect memory addressing in today's processors. EOS.

There have been Fortran compilers that implemented modification of
variables via "value-result" rather than "by-reference".

This is perhaps best illustrated by some code fragments:

      SUBROUTINE FOO(X, Y)
      INTEGER X, Y
      ...
      X = 3
      Y = 4
      RETURN

      SUBROUTINE BAR(A)
      FOO(A, 0)
      RETURN

might compile to the equivalent of the following C code:

    void foo(int *x0, int *y0) {
        int x = *x0, y = *y0;
        ...
        *x0 = x;
        *y0 = y;
    }

    void bar(int *a0) {
        int a = *a0;
        int temp = 0;
        foo(&a, &temp);
        *a0 = a;
    }

In order to allow both by-reference and value-result, Fortran
forbids the programmer to peek at the machinery.  That is, the
following complete program is invalid:

      SUBROUTINE PEEK(X)
      INTEGER X, GOTCHA
      COMMON /BLOCK/ GOTCHA
      PRINT *, 'INITIALLY GOTCHA = ', GOTCHA
      X = 4
      PRINT *, 'AFTER X=4 GOTCHA = ', GOTCHA
      RETURN

      PROGRAM MAIN
      INTEGER GOTCHA
      COMMON /BLOCK/ GOTCHA
      GOTCHA = 3
      PEEK(GOTCHA)
      PRINT *, 'FINALLY   GOTCHA = ', GOTCHA
      STOP
      END

(It has been so long since I used Fortran that the above may not
be quite right in ways other than the one intended.  Please forgive
small errors. :-) )

The trick in "subroutine peek" is that it refers to both a "global
variable" (in Fortran, simulated with a common block) and a "dummy
variable" (as it is termed in Fortran) -- the parameter that aliases
the global variable -- in such a way that we can see *when* the
change happens.  If "gotcha" starts out set to 3, remains 3 after
assignment to x, and changes to 4 after peek() returns, then peek()
effectively used value-result to change the parameter.  If, on the
other hand, "gotcha" became 4 immediately after the assignment to
x, then peek() effectively used by-reference.

The key take-away here is not so much the trick by which we "peeked
inside" the implementation (although peeking *is* useful in solving
the "murder mystery" we have after some program aborts with a
core-dump or what-have-you), but rather the fact that the Fortran
language proper forbids us from peeking at all.  By forbidding it
-- by making the program illegal -- the language provide implementors
the freedom to use *either* by-reference or value-result.  All
valid Fortran programs behave identically under either kind of
implementation.

Like it or not, Python has similar "defined as undefined" grey
areas: one is not promised, for instance, whether the "is" operator
is always True for small integers that are equal (although it is
in CPython), nor when __del__ is called (if ever), and so on.  As
with the Python-named-Monty, we have "rigidly defined areas of
doubt and uncertainty".  These exist for good reasons: to allow
different implementations.
-- 
In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Wind River Systems
Salt Lake City, UT, USA (40°39.22'N, 111°50.29'W)  +1 801 277 2603
email: gmail (figure it out)      http://web.torek.net/torek/index.html

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#4849

From	Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net>
Date	2011-05-06 19:06 +0000
Message-ID	<iq1grj0nrk@news1.newsguy.com>
In reply to	#4846

In article <iq1e0j022t7@news2.newsguy.com> I wrote, in part:
>Like it or not, Python has similar "defined as undefined" grey
>areas: one is not promised, for instance, whether the "is" operator
>is always True for small integers that are equal (although it is
>in CPython), nor when __del__ is called (if ever), and so on.  As
>with the Python-named-Monty, we have "rigidly defined areas of
>doubt and uncertainty".  These exist for good reasons: to allow
>different implementations.

Oops, attribution error: this comes from Douglas Adams rather
than Monty Python.
-- 
In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Wind River Systems
Salt Lake City, UT, USA (40°39.22'N, 111°50.29'W)  +1 801 277 2603
email: gmail (figure it out)      http://web.torek.net/torek/index.html

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#4851

From	harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net>
Date	2011-05-06 14:25 -0500
Message-ID	<4XXwp.18782$Ot6.2313@newsfe15.iad>
In reply to	#4849

Chris Torek wrote:
>> with the Python-named-Monty, we have "rigidly defined areas of
>> >doubt and uncertainty".  These exist for good reasons: to allow
>> >different implementations.
> Oops, attribution error: this comes from Douglas Adams rather
> than Monty Python.

Well, its certainly Monte-esq.... I like it, whoever said it.

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#4874

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2011-05-07 09:43 +1000
Message-ID	<mailman.1275.1304725402.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4851

On Sat, May 7, 2011 at 5:25 AM, harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> wrote:
> Chris Torek wrote:
>>>
>>> with the Python-named-Monty, we have "rigidly defined areas of
>>> >doubt and uncertainty".  These exist for good reasons: to allow
>>> >different implementations.
>>
>> Oops, attribution error: this comes from Douglas Adams rather
>> than Monty Python.
>
> Well, its certainly Monte-esq.... I like it, whoever said it.

Same style of humour, they both derived significantly from Spike
Milligan and "The Goon Show". That particular quote relates to the
famous computer that calculated the number 42, which - to drag this,
kicking and screaming, back to some semblance of on-topicness - was
clearly built with a view to conserving programmer time at the expense
of execution time. I don't understand why they didn't just recode the
heavy computation in C and cut it down to just a few thousand years...

Chris Angelico

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#4671

From	Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
Date	2011-05-04 16:22 -0600
Message-ID	<mailman.1173.1304548013.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4661

On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 3:35 PM, harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>>>
>>> We do not consider passing a pointer as*by value*  because its an
>>> >  address; by definition, that is pass-by-reference.
>>
>> No, it isn't.  It's pass by value.  The fact that you are passing a
>> value that is a pointer to another value is not relevent.
>>
>
> @ Edwards, &Schaathun
>
> You are most definitely mistaken.   See:
>
> http://publib.boulder.ibm.com/infocenter/comphelp/v8v101/index.jsp?topic=%2Fcom.ibm.xlcpp8a.doc%2Flanguage%2Fref%2Fcplr233.htm

That source actually supports the claim that pass-by-pointer falls
under pass-by-value.  It reads, in part (emphasis added):

> In C++, the reference parameters are initialized with the actual arguments when the function is called. In C, the pointer parameters > are initialized with pointer _values_ when the function is called.

However, I hope we can all agree that pass-by-pointer shares certain
features with both pass-by-value and pass-by-reference, and there are
perfectly reasonable arguments for lumping it in either category, yes?

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csiph-web

What other languages use the same data model as Python?

Contents

#4757

#4900

#4778

#4724

#4743

#4753

#4760

#4765

#4901

#4903

#4759

#4796

#4755

#4767

#4768

#4846

#4849

#4851

#4874

#4671