Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.python > #86440 > unrolled thread

Re: Python Worst Practices

Back to article view | Back to comp.lang.python

This discussion starts older than the indexed window; earlier articles aren't shown. The article labeled Started by below is the oldest one visible, not the original post.

Contents

  Re: Python Worst Practices Michiel Overtoom <motoom@xs4all.nl> - 2015-02-25 21:58 +0100
    Re: Python Worst Practices BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-02-28 10:28 +0000
      Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-02-28 12:56 +0200
        Re: Python Worst Practices wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-02-28 06:26 -0800
        Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-02-28 15:43 +0000
        Re: Python Worst Practices Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-01 19:11 +1100
          Re: Python Worst Practices wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-01 01:07 -0800
          Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 18:16 +0200
            Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 03:32 +1100
              Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 18:58 +0200
                Re: Python Worst Practices Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 10:42 -0700
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 21:21 +0200
                  OT Accents [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-02 09:43 +1100
            Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 16:38 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 19:01 +0200
                Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 17:34 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 19:52 +0200
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 18:16 +0000
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 19:32 +0100
                      Re: Python Worst Practices wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-01 11:23 -0800
                        Re: Python Worst Practices Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 20:59 +0100
                      Re: Python Worst Practices Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-02 10:40 +1300
                        Re: Python Worst Practices Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2015-03-01 16:47 -0500
                          Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 22:10 +0000
                          An injury when I was a sbhoolboy; I was bitten by a bat. (was: Python Worst Practices) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-02 11:03 +1100
                          Re: An injury when I was a sbhoolboy; I was bitten by a bat. Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-02 11:07 +1100
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 20:02 +0000
                Re: Python Worst Practices Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 20:14 -0800
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-02 06:40 +0200
                  Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-02 08:59 +0000
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-02 14:19 +0200
                      (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 01:39 +1100
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-02 17:30 +0200
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 03:51 +0100
                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 19:51 -0800
                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-03 15:10 +1100
                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 05:32 +0100
                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 03:00 -0800
                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-03 11:40 +0000
                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com> - 2015-03-03 21:43 -0800
                                      Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-04 15:16 +0200
                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 14:41 +0100
                                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-04 18:55 +0200
                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 06:45 -0800
                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-05 06:14 +1100
                                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2015-03-04 11:28 -0800
                                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-04 21:33 +0200
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-05 07:11 +1100
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2015-03-05 07:40 +1100
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2015-03-04 14:39 -0800
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2015-03-05 10:36 +1100
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-05 20:39 -0500
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-04 20:10 +0000
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 19:38 -0800
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-05 07:19 +0200
                                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-05 10:16 +0100
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-05 15:39 +0200
                                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-06 00:00 -0800
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-06 08:31 +0000
                                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-06 12:06 +0200
                                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-06 12:34 +0000
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-06 12:03 +0200
                                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com> - 2015-03-06 08:23 -0800
                                                      Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-06 20:15 +0200
                                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-03-06 20:26 +0100
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-03-06 14:34 +0200
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-05 20:28 +0000
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-03-05 21:45 +0200
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-05 22:10 +0200
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 02:45 +1100
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python   Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 18:40 +1300
                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 17:56 +1100
                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-03 09:05 +0200
                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 18:14 +1100
                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 18:38 +1100
                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-03 00:12 -0800
                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python   Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 23:35 +1300
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-02 23:35 -0800
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 10:54 -0500
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 11:45 +1300
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 00:23 +0000
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 12:00 +1100
                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 19:06 +1300
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism,   language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 19:06 +1300
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 01:44 +0000
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-03-03 02:09 +0000
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 16:18 +1100
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 09:17 +0000
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-03-03 15:40 +0100
                      Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-02 15:32 +0000
                        Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 15:45 +0000
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Manolo Martínez <manolo@austrohungaro.com> - 2015-03-02 13:00 +0100
                Uncanny valley of languages Jonas Wielicki <jonas@wielicki.name> - 2015-03-02 11:54 +0100
                  Re: Uncanny valley of languages Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 18:33 -0800
            Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 03:42 +1100
            Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 16:52 +0000
            Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-01 20:16 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 07:26 +1100
                Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-01 21:07 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 22:45 +0200
                Re: Python Worst Practices Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 22:01 +0100
              Re: Python Worst Practices Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-01 20:53 -0500
                (Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-02 13:35 +1100
                  Re: (Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-01 19:18 -0800
                    Re: (Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 14:42 +1100
                Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 17:12 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-03-02 11:06 -0800
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 22:21 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-02 23:04 -0500
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-03 06:32 +0200
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 11:15 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 15:49 +1100
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 11:31 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 07:20 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 08:25 -0800
                Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-02 17:02 +0000
            Re: Python Worst Practices BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-03-01 22:14 +0000
            Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 06:45 +1100

Page 2 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 5 6  Next page →

#86675

On Sun, 1 Mar 2015 11:23:51 -0800 (PST), wxjmfauth@gmail.com wrote:

>
>http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr31/
>
>Python is doing very on that sile.
>
>jmf
>

I'm glad Annex 31 agrees that I can name identifiers even in hebrew if
I really want to. For a moment there I was shaking when I opened the
link.

Must be some other document then. This one didn't help.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86683

Mario Figueiredo wrote:
> But could you please point us to the ISO that details the
> international standard for variable names? Or failing that, to the
> public discussion that took place and decided American-English is the
> de-facto language for variable names?

American became the standard for variable names the same
way most de-facto standards come into being -- by historical
accident and network effects. Many of the commonly-used
libraries happen to be written by Americans, and programming
languages being the way they are, anyone who uses them
has to follow suit.

When I'm programming I always spell it "color", even when
I don't strictly have to, because having two spellings in
the same body of code would be too confusing for everyone,
myself included.

But in documentation, in contexts where it's not critical,
I'm more likely to use the spelling I'm most familiar
with, which is "colour". I can't imagine any English
speaker, native or otherwise, being unable to cope with
that.

-- 
Greg

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86684

In article <clhf9mFn89rU1@mid.individual.net>,
 Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:

> But in documentation, in contexts where it's not critical,
> I'm more likely to use the spelling I'm most familiar
> with, which is "colour". I can't imagine any English
> speaker, native or otherwise, being unable to cope with
> that.

What abut people who can't pronounce the letter "B"?

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86685

On 01/03/2015 21:47, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <clhf9mFn89rU1@mid.individual.net>,
>   Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>
>> But in documentation, in contexts where it's not critical,
>> I'm more likely to use the spelling I'm most familiar
>> with, which is "colour". I can't imagine any English
>> speaker, native or otherwise, being unable to cope with
>> that.
>
> What abut people who can't pronounce the letter "B"?
>

It's people who can't pronounce "C" who are the problem, leading to 
troubles such as Kings Bollege Bambridge.  Americans also drop the "u" 
so it should be "abot" not "abut".

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86689 — An injury when I was a sbhoolboy; I was bitten by a bat. (was: Python Worst Practices)

Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> writes:

> In article <clhf9mFn89rU1@mid.individual.net>,
>  Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
>
> > But in documentation, in contexts where it's not critical, I'm more
> > likely to use the spelling I'm most familiar with, which is
> > "colour". I can't imagine any English speaker, native or otherwise,
> > being unable to cope with that.
>
> What abut people who can't pronounce the letter "B"?

You mean the letter “C”? Yes, I thought so.

Well why not pronounce the letter “C” as though it were the letter “K”?

(See <URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz2LaJOVAiA> if you have no
idea what this is all about.)

Alternatively, I could ask you to pronounce “busy” as though it was
spelled with an “i”; or pronounce “friend” as though it *doesn't* have
an “i”. But that would be asking for sense in English orthography
<URL:https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/02/how-the-english-language-is-holding-kids-back/385291/>.

-- 
 \          “Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a |
  `\                                          feature.” —Rich Kulawiec |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86690 — Re: An injury when I was a sbhoolboy; I was bitten by a bat.

Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> writes:

> (See <URL:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz2LaJOVAiA> if you have no
> idea what this is all about.)

I was sloppy with my pronouns there. I'm pretty sure Roy knows what he's
referring to; that “you” was directed to anyone who is not aware.

-- 
 \       “Some people have a problem, and they think “I know, I'll use |
  `\     Perl!”. Now they have some number of problems but they're not |
_o__)     sure whether it's a string or an integer.” —Benno Rice, 2011 |
Ben Finney

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86783

On 01/03/2015 17:52, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>:
>
>> On 01/03/2015 17:01, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>> What you (or I) speak in our native surroundings is up to you (and
>>> me).
>>>
>>> However, when I exhange software engineering ideas with you, I wish
>>> both of us could stick to American English.
>>
>> Well I'm not going to, so tough, or is that togh? Colour, harbour,
>> tyre, antogonise are the way I spell words, and I'm not changing the
>> habits of a lifetime simply because I'm on a technical site.
>
> Wow, a somewhat Chauvinistic attitude, wouldn't you say? The French will
> learn it. The Germans will learn it. Us Finns will learn it. Only you
> won't learn it because you won't change the habits of a lifetime.
>

No I wouldn't, autistic is far more accurate.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86697

On Sunday, March 1, 2015 at 10:32:00 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Mark Lawrence :
> 
> > Are you suggesting that we Brits have a single "home accent"?  If you
> > are, you need to stand up as your voice is rather muffled.  That by the
> > way is a British expression that may or may not be used around the
> > Commonwealth.  Should we unlearn it to fit in with American English? Two
> > chances, zero or none.
> 
> What you (or I) speak in our native surroundings is up to you (and me).
> 
> However, when I exhange software engineering ideas with you, I wish both
> of us could stick to American English.

When I was in college, there was this course called ‹Accounting and Bookkeeping›
It was a disaster since I always accounted on the wrong side of the ledger.
I guess I only passed because the teacher occasionally also accounted on the 
wrong side of the ledger!!

With due respect Marko, are you accounting on the wrong side of the ledger?

If some non-native of English expresses him/herself poorly we still try to 
understand – its even in the code of conduct or somethin

And yet you insist that a Brit (or English or whatever) should change his ways¹?

I would say it is wrong side of the ledger because the amount of 'culture' invested
into a Brit is more than into someone who just poorly learned the language yesterday.

In school my most memorable encounters were with Shakespeare, Blake, Wordsworth
[I did not like Keats].
Until he died at 102 my gpa would recite Longfellow's "Lives of great men" almost
as a daily prayer.
If all that gets erased for some tasteless colourless (ok colorless) internationalese, its a bloody shame.

=========
¹Reminds of the modern mania for 'rights'
Yeah some groups – women, races, skin-colors etc etc etc – have been traditionally
have-nots. If the attempt at equalizing is not done in balance instead
of equalization we get a swing in the opposite direction and the haves become
the have-nots.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86698

Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com>:

>> However, when I exhange software engineering ideas with you, I wish
>> both of us could stick to American English.
>
> [...]
>
> I would say it is wrong side of the ledger because the amount of
> culture' invested into a Brit is more than into someone who just
> poorly learned the language yesterday.
>
> In school my most memorable encounters were with Shakespeare, Blake,
> Wordsworth [I did not like Keats]. Until he died at 102 my gpa would
> recite Longfellow's "Lives of great men" almost as a daily prayer. If
> all that gets erased for some tasteless colourless (ok colorless)
> internationalese, its a bloody shame.

We are not talking about culture here but Python coding, conference
keynote addresses at the most "cultured" end of it.


Marko

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86708

On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 20:14:13 -0800, Rustom Mody wrote:

> On Sunday, March 1, 2015 at 10:32:00 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Mark Lawrence :
>> 
>> > Are you suggesting that we Brits have a single "home accent"?  If you
>> > are, you need to stand up as your voice is rather muffled.  That by
>> > the way is a British expression that may or may not be used around
>> > the Commonwealth.  Should we unlearn it to fit in with American
>> > English? Two chances, zero or none.
>> 
>> What you (or I) speak in our native surroundings is up to you (and me).
>> 
>> However, when I exhange software engineering ideas with you, I wish
>> both of us could stick to American English.
> 
> When I was in college, there was this course called ‹Accounting and
> Bookkeeping›
> It was a disaster since I always accounted on the wrong side of the
> ledger.
> I guess I only passed because the teacher occasionally also accounted on
> the wrong side of the ledger!!
> 
> With due respect Marko, are you accounting on the wrong side of the
> ledger?
> 
> If some non-native of English expresses him/herself poorly we still try
> to understand – its even in the code of conduct or somethin
> 
> And yet you insist that a Brit (or English or whatever) should change
> his ways¹?
<snip some very good explanation>

or as another analogy why don't you (Marco) try telling a Barber in 
Seville that he should be speaking Latin Spanish not that strange 
variation he uses?

I suspect the  reaction you get will be far more severe than the one you 
are getting from we English (& Brits)


-- 
system has been recalled

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86725

alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com>:

> or as another analogy why don't you (Marco) try telling a Barber in
> Seville that he should be speaking Latin Spanish not that strange
> variation he uses?

If the barber conference language were Latin, and some Spaniard insisted
on speaking Western Andalusian, I sure would consider that obnoxious.

Similarly, I've heard some Finnish representatives in the Nordic Council
complain how the Danish insist on speaking Danish. The official language
there is Swedish.

> I suspect the reaction you get will be far more severe than the one
> you are getting from we English (& Brits)

I don't understand your reaction. The rest of us are willing to walk a
mile (say, Finnish -----> American English) and you are up in arms about
having to shift a foot (say, Scouse -> American English).


Marko

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86739 — (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com>:
> 
>> or as another analogy why don't you (Marco) try telling a Barber in
>> Seville that he should be speaking Latin Spanish not that strange
>> variation he uses?
> 
> If the barber conference language were Latin, and some Spaniard insisted
> on speaking Western Andalusian, I sure would consider that obnoxious.
> 
> Similarly, I've heard some Finnish representatives in the Nordic Council
> complain how the Danish insist on speaking Danish. The official language
> there is Swedish.

I'm reminded of the British Prime Minister David Lloyd George, who
apparently made a habit of answering difficult or embarrassing questions in
parliament in his native Welsh.


>> I suspect the reaction you get will be far more severe than the one
>> you are getting from we English (& Brits)
> 
> I don't understand your reaction. The rest of us are willing to walk a
> mile (say, Finnish -----> American English) and you are up in arms about
> having to shift a foot (say, Scouse -> American English).

"Not one inch!"

Sometimes the small differences are more important than the big. Your
Finnishness is not threatened by learning English, any more than Mark's
Britishness would be threatened by him learning Russian.

[Now there's a thought... with the historical relationships between Finland
and Russia, I wonder whether Finns would be as blasé about using a foreign
language if it were Russian rather than English? But I digress.]

Whereas the comparatively small differences between British and American
English are all the more important because they distinguish the two. Nobody
is ever going to mistake Finland and the Finish people for Americans, even
if you learn to speak American English. But for Britons to use American
English is, in a way, to cease to be Britons at all.

Personally, I think that monocultures are harmful and ought to be resisted,
whether than monoculture is one-species-of-wheat, one-operating-system, or
one-language. The English-speaking world is threatened by American cultural
and linguistic monoculture[1], and that's a bad thing. The same applies to
the rest of the world, but to a much lesser extent. Having a rich and
varied cultural ecosystem is important, and regional differences in
language and culture are an essential part in that.

Variations in idiom and spelling are a good thing. They open our minds to
new possibilities, remind us that we aren't all the same, and keep life
fresh. I remember the first time I realised that when Indians talk about "a
code" they aren't using "wrong English", they are using a regional
variation. In British and American English, "code" in the programming
sense[2] is a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and
housework. You cannot have "three milks", you have to add some sort of unit
to it: three litres of milk, five pieces of music, too much housework, five
*pieces of code*. But in Indian English, you can count code: *five codes*.
How wonderful! I'll probably never use it myself, but I am enriched just to
know it exists.





[1] Yes, I watch as many American movies and television shows as the next
guy. I'm allowed to take the parts of their culture I approve of and reject
the parts I don't.

[2] As opposed to the sense of secret codes and ciphers.

[3] In the sense of air that we breathe. One can still have "airs and
graces", although we rarely quantify just how many airs somebody is putting
on.



-- 
Steven

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86748 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:

> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Similarly, I've heard some Finnish representatives in the Nordic
>> Council complain how the Danish insist on speaking Danish. The
>> official language there is Swedish.
>
> I'm reminded of the British Prime Minister David Lloyd George, who
> apparently made a habit of answering difficult or embarrassing
> questions in parliament in his native Welsh.

What are the Danish embarrassed about? C++? C#? Delphi? ALGOL 60? BNF?

> But for Britons to use American English is, in a way, to cease to be
> Britons at all.

Did Hugh Laurie have to turn in his British passport?

--

But don't despair! I just ran into this (<URL:
http://speakmoreclearly.com/>):

    Do you want to speak English fluently and with an American accent?

    -> Sick of being asked to repeat yourself?

    -> Tired of people not understanding you?

    -> Worried about losing your job or no one hiring you?

    -> Trouble being understood on the phone?

    -> Embarrassed or shy in social situations?

    If you answered ‘yes’ to any of the above questions, then I have
    great news for you!

    You CAN change your accent and start speaking English like an
    American. In less than 15 minutes a day and from the comfort of your
    own home.

    You just need to know the RIGHT way to practise. Our Ultimate
    American Accent Training Package gives you all the exercises and
    methods you need for improving your English pronunciation.


Marko

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86805 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Mon, 02 Mar 2015 17:30:42 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net>
wrote:

>Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:
>
>> But for Britons to use American English is, in a way, to cease to be
>> Britons at all.
>
>Did Hugh Laurie have to turn in his British passport?

The concepts behind an actor performing and a programmer programming
are so distinct, I don't think your reply warrants an answer (even
though I suspect you would want to draw some cheap analogies).

I don't know if you realize who bad your stance looks like from the
position of someone who doesn't even use english as a primary
development language. You are not telling just Brits they should use
your flavored dialect, you are telling everyone else that on top of
their efforts to learn the english language, they will have to care
about national dialects, if they wish to... how did you put it
before?... conform.

I'm from a country where we face the same language issues as English.
There are many dialects of the Portuguese language. It is spoken
officially in 5 continents, it's the second fastest growing language
in Europe and it is the fith most spoken language in the world. We
tried to solve the problem by officially standardizing the written
language between all dialects. There is today an official Portuguese
language across all countries that should be a standard for written
communication. It is mostly a mixture of the portuguese and brazillian
dialects, government-approved by all countries of the CPLP. (As if
governments should decide how people speak and write, but whatever).

This worked out so well that 10 years later we are still missing
formalized plugins for our programs and no one is insterested in doing
them. So if I wish to code in standard portuguese (as opossed to pt-PT
or pt-BR, for instance), I won't have many options in the way of spell
checkers. So good luck to you too trying to impose your en-US flavor
of standard english.

I'm also wondering how you think your stance works out in community
development environments. Namely, how will it look like to everyone
else when your next pull request on github includes a project-wide
rename of the variables/identifiers analogue, colour and analyse. Or
when you let everyone else know how annoyed you are at the Pyjamas
development team.

Software development bases most of its success in its ability to
communicate. Not just ideas, but also code. One of the strengths of
Python is, they say, how easy the language communicates its code
intentions to a layman. Contrary to what you are thinking, trying to
impose your kind of language barriers, stiffles that communication
process. By forcing everyone to adapt to a standard dialect you are
slowing down the ability of the worldwide community to express their
ideas as they have now to learn a written language on top of a
programming language, and you are growing the window for errors where
before there was none.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86806 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 8:21:53 AM UTC+5:30, Mario Figueiredo wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Mar 2015 17:30:42 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> 
> >Steven D'Aprano:
> >
> >> But for Britons to use American English is, in a way, to cease to be
> >> Britons at all.
> >
> >Did Hugh Laurie have to turn in his British passport?
> 
> The concepts behind an actor performing and a programmer programming
> are so distinct, I don't think your reply warrants an answer (even
> though I suspect you would want to draw some cheap analogies).
> 
> I don't know if you realize who bad your stance looks like from the
> position of someone who doesn't even use english as a primary
> development language. 

I dont know what you are saying Mario or even whom you are addressing - Steven or Marko - some seems to apply to one some to the other

However...  While this exchange is going on here, a friend sent me this:

So I stand among you as one who offers a small message of hope, that first, there are always people who dare to seek on the margin of society, who are not dependent on social acceptance, not dependent on social routine, and prefer a kind of free-floating existence under a state of risk. And among these people, if they are faithful to their own calling, to their own vocation, and to their own message from God, communication on the deepest level is possible. And the deepest level of communication is not communication, but communion. It is wordless. It is beyond words, and it is beyond speech, and it is beyond concept. Not that we discover a new unity. We discover an older unity . . . we are already one. But we imagine that we are not. And what we have to recover is our original unity. What we have to be is what we are.

Fr. Thomas Merton

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86808 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes:

> And among these people, if they are faithful to their own calling, to
> their own vocation, and to their own message from God, communication
> on the deepest level is possible. And the deepest level of
> communication is not communication, but communion. It is wordless. It
> is beyond words, and it is beyond speech, and it is beyond concept.
> [… and on and on …]

That's amazing. That sounds so deep and resonant.

Like the sound of an empty water tank being thumped with a stick.

It's rare to see an empty echoing clamour distilled into a salad of
words tossed together with no regard for their meaning, quite as well as
that. Thank you.

Meanwhile, those of us who actually want to communicate will try harder
to have our utterances actually mean something, and communicate clearer
than the white noise of false profundity.

-- 
 \        “The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things |
  `\           without evidence.” —Thomas Henry Huxley, _Evolution and |
_o__)                                                    Ethics_, 1893 |
Ben Finney

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86809 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 19:51:31 -0800 (PST), Rustom Mody
<rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>I dont know what you are saying Mario or even whom you are addressing

I was replying directly to Marko. I don't think it is possible to
establish a standard dialect for variable names in English or any
other language. It doesn't even make sense as long as the code clearly
communicates its intent. Any attempts at standardizing written
language are just bound to failure due to natural cultural
resistances, but also the way the spoken and written language evolve
isn't going ever to agree with some official authority.

As for your Thomas Merton quote, it didn't resonate with me. First I
find it hilarious that a 20th century catholic monk speaks of people
of faith as existing at the margin of society and accepting risk,
particularly in the deeply conservative American society. That's a
laugh right there.

But the whole comunion thing, the going through God, and the accepting
we are all one, is really not my flavor of morning tea. I'm a bit more
down to earth and less heavenly oriented. We are all really different
individuals, deeply separated by our own minds and sharing only a
similar biology. That we can communicate at all, is rather satisfying.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86836 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 10:02:30 AM UTC+5:30, Mario Figueiredo wrote:
> On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 19:51:31 -0800 (PST), Rustom Mody wrote:
> >
> >I dont know what you are saying Mario or even whom you are addressing
> 
> I was replying directly to Marko. I don't think it is possible to
> establish a standard dialect for variable names in English or any
> other language. 

Eh?  There was some such suggestion??

All that I saw was suggestions like this: [Of course I may have missed some]

Marko: 
| (Spelling deviations are actually minor nuisances. A bigger problem is
| when a Brit thinks they can use their home accent in international
| contexts.) 

> It doesn't even make sense as long as the code clearly
> communicates its intent. Any attempts at standardizing written
> language are just bound to failure due to natural cultural
> resistances, but also the way the spoken and written language evolve
> isn't going ever to agree with some official authority.
> 
> As for your Thomas Merton quote, it didn't resonate with me. First I
> find it hilarious that a 20th century catholic monk speaks of people
> of faith as existing at the margin of society and accepting risk,
> particularly in the deeply conservative American society. That's a
> laugh right there.

I dont understand what you are saying.
Lets say you replace 'conservative' by something more definitively pejorative
eg fundamentalist, backward etc
Now replace 'American society' by 'Nazi Germany'
Do you believe that everyone who was not a Jew was a Nazi?
In actual fact I believe you would have found people on all points of the spectrum
between "Full cooperation with the machinery" to "active resistance to the point of endangering one's existence"

Likewise it seems only fair to acknowledge that Fr Thomas Merton seems to have had all sorts of difficulties trying to follow his vocation and that quote
more or less reflects his difficulties.

Of course you are welcome to your own individual allergic reactions.
Some people need to be hospitalized if they eat one peanut. Likewise some people
seem to stop hearing anything if some religion-associating word like 'God' appears.

Generalizing from specific instance to paradigm is always a dicey business.  Now
personally I suffer no allergy to the word 'God' but in my younger days I
suffered violent reaction to 'pop music' in particular the distortion of an
electric guitar.

Many years older and (hopefully!) wiser I find that the electric guitar captures
Beethoven better than the official version
see the two youtube clips at beginning of http://blog.languager.org/2011/02/cs-education-is-fat-and-weak-3.html 

A similar situation obtains (I believe!) vis-a-vis generic 'Christian priest' vs
specific instance Thomas Merton

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86840 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Tue, 03 Mar 2015 03:00:30 -0800, Rustom Mody wrote:

> I dont understand what you are saying.
> Lets say you replace 'conservative' by something more definitively
> pejorative eg fundamentalist, backward etc Now replace 'American
> society' by 'Nazi Germany'

finally we can call Godwins on this thread



-- 
You may be sure that when a man begins to call himself a "realist," he
is preparing to do something he is secretly ashamed of doing.
		-- Sydney Harris

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#86888 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Seems the ultimate in irony when a language invented by a Dutchman and named after a British comedy troupe gets bogged down in an argument about whether its users are sufficiently "American".

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

Page 2 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 [2] 3 4 5 6  Next page →

Back to top | Article view | comp.lang.python

csiph-web