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Re: Python Worst Practices

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  Re: Python Worst Practices Michiel Overtoom <motoom@xs4all.nl> - 2015-02-25 21:58 +0100
    Re: Python Worst Practices BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-02-28 10:28 +0000
      Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-02-28 12:56 +0200
        Re: Python Worst Practices wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-02-28 06:26 -0800
        Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-02-28 15:43 +0000
        Re: Python Worst Practices Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-01 19:11 +1100
          Re: Python Worst Practices wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-01 01:07 -0800
          Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 18:16 +0200
            Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 03:32 +1100
              Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 18:58 +0200
                Re: Python Worst Practices Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 10:42 -0700
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 21:21 +0200
                  OT Accents [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-02 09:43 +1100
            Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 16:38 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 19:01 +0200
                Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 17:34 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 19:52 +0200
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 18:16 +0000
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 19:32 +0100
                      Re: Python Worst Practices wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-01 11:23 -0800
                        Re: Python Worst Practices Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 20:59 +0100
                      Re: Python Worst Practices Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-02 10:40 +1300
                        Re: Python Worst Practices Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2015-03-01 16:47 -0500
                          Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 22:10 +0000
                          An injury when I was a sbhoolboy; I was bitten by a bat. (was: Python Worst Practices) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-02 11:03 +1100
                          Re: An injury when I was a sbhoolboy; I was bitten by a bat. Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-02 11:07 +1100
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 20:02 +0000
                Re: Python Worst Practices Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 20:14 -0800
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-02 06:40 +0200
                  Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-02 08:59 +0000
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-02 14:19 +0200
                      (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 01:39 +1100
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-02 17:30 +0200
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 03:51 +0100
                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 19:51 -0800
                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-03 15:10 +1100
                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 05:32 +0100
                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 03:00 -0800
                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-03 11:40 +0000
                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com> - 2015-03-03 21:43 -0800
                                      Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-04 15:16 +0200
                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 14:41 +0100
                                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-04 18:55 +0200
                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 06:45 -0800
                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-05 06:14 +1100
                                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2015-03-04 11:28 -0800
                                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-04 21:33 +0200
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-05 07:11 +1100
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2015-03-05 07:40 +1100
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2015-03-04 14:39 -0800
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2015-03-05 10:36 +1100
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-05 20:39 -0500
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-04 20:10 +0000
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 19:38 -0800
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-05 07:19 +0200
                                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-05 10:16 +0100
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-05 15:39 +0200
                                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-06 00:00 -0800
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-06 08:31 +0000
                                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-06 12:06 +0200
                                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-06 12:34 +0000
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-06 12:03 +0200
                                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com> - 2015-03-06 08:23 -0800
                                                      Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-06 20:15 +0200
                                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-03-06 20:26 +0100
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-03-06 14:34 +0200
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-05 20:28 +0000
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-03-05 21:45 +0200
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-05 22:10 +0200
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 02:45 +1100
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python   Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 18:40 +1300
                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 17:56 +1100
                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-03 09:05 +0200
                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 18:14 +1100
                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 18:38 +1100
                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-03 00:12 -0800
                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python   Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 23:35 +1300
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-02 23:35 -0800
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 10:54 -0500
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 11:45 +1300
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 00:23 +0000
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 12:00 +1100
                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 19:06 +1300
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism,   language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 19:06 +1300
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 01:44 +0000
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-03-03 02:09 +0000
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 16:18 +1100
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 09:17 +0000
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-03-03 15:40 +0100
                      Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-02 15:32 +0000
                        Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 15:45 +0000
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Manolo Martínez <manolo@austrohungaro.com> - 2015-03-02 13:00 +0100
                Uncanny valley of languages Jonas Wielicki <jonas@wielicki.name> - 2015-03-02 11:54 +0100
                  Re: Uncanny valley of languages Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 18:33 -0800
            Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 03:42 +1100
            Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 16:52 +0000
            Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-01 20:16 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 07:26 +1100
                Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-01 21:07 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 22:45 +0200
                Re: Python Worst Practices Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 22:01 +0100
              Re: Python Worst Practices Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-01 20:53 -0500
                (Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-02 13:35 +1100
                  Re: (Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-01 19:18 -0800
                    Re: (Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 14:42 +1100
                Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 17:12 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-03-02 11:06 -0800
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 22:21 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-02 23:04 -0500
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-03 06:32 +0200
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 11:15 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 15:49 +1100
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 11:31 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 07:20 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 08:25 -0800
                Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-02 17:02 +0000
            Re: Python Worst Practices BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-03-01 22:14 +0000
            Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 06:45 +1100

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#86440 — Re: Python Worst Practices

On Feb 25, 2015, at 21:45, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> http://www.slideshare.net/pydanny/python-worst-practices

I agree with you that Python lambdas have little use beyond the most trivial use cases.

For the non-trivial cases, I like to define a named function which does the job. And also provides documentation, just by virtue of being named (and having a docstring).

I also tend to do this in JavaScript code, which also can benefit from this.

Greetings,

-- 
"You can't actually make computers run faster, you can only make them do less." - RiderOfGiraffes

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#86616

On 25/02/2015 20:58, Michiel Overtoom wrote:
>
> On Feb 25, 2015, at 21:45, Mark Lawrence wrote:
>
>> http://www.slideshare.net/pydanny/python-worst-practices

I like the way it advises against preserving pixels by removing vowels 
from identifiers.

Then it gives the best practice example of using "color" instead of 
"clr" or "c"!

(Over here it's spelled "colour"...)

-- 
Bartc

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#86618

BartC <bc@freeuk.com>:

> (Over here it's spelled "colour"...)

The language of science and technology is American English. Learn it
like everybody else has to.


Marko

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#86621

Le samedi 28 février 2015 11:56:57 UTC+1, Marko Rauhamaa a écrit :
> BartC <bc@freeuk.com>:
> 
> > (Over here it's spelled "colour"...)
> 
> The language of science and technology is American English. Learn it
> like everybody else has to.
> 

Even better, enforce the usage of a language using
a script only based on the set of ascii characters.

Otherwhile, your beloved (computer) language may
crash, as it happened this morning.

jmf

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#86623

On 28/02/2015 10:56, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> BartC <bc@freeuk.com>:
>
>> (Over here it's spelled "colour"...)
>
> The language of science and technology is American English. Learn it
> like everybody else has to.
>
>
> Marko
>

People from Angleland use any English apart from our own, never.  Next 
thing you'll be telling us to use that new fangled UTC nonsense instead 
of the clearly correct GMT.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#86649

Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> The language of science and technology is American English.

Not so. Despite claims that "99% of science publishing is done in English",
there are still significant amounts of science and technology published in
non-English languages. And the majority which is published in English
doesn't necessarily use American English. 

E.g. I searched for article titles containing "colour" in The Lancet, the
world's premier medical journal, and found 328 results, versus 8
for "color".

http://www.thelancet.com/action/doSearch?searchType=quick&searchText=colour&occurrences=articleTitle&journalCode=&searchScope=fullSite


Likewise Nature uses Oxford spelling:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_spelling



Not surprisingly, the use of English varies by field and nationality.
According to this study:

http://www.researchtrends.com/issue-31-november-2012/the-language-of-future-scientific-communication/

Dutch scientists publish in English forty times as much as they publish in
their native language, while Chinese scientists do so only twice as often.

According to astronaut Chris Hadfield's autobiography, being able to speak
and read fluent Russian is essential for astronauts on the ISS, especially
if they want to fly a Soyuz. I would expect that robotics is mostly written
in Japanese.

It is not a given that science and technology should be (1) monlingual, and
(2) using the language of the dominant political superpower. As this
article points out, monoglot science is neither historically inevitable,
nor necessarily a good thing:

http://aeon.co/magazine/science/how-did-science-come-to-speak-only-english/

Don't imagine for one second that the entire world is willing to meekly
follow the path to American cultural hegemony:

http://www.goethe.de/lhr/prj/diw/dos/enindex.htm

(The irony of Germans publish pro-German articles in English has not escaped
me, but if they had published them in German I wouldn't have found them.)

As Russia flexes its muscles and tries to reclaim it's co-superpower role,
I'm sure that there will be more hard sciences and mathematics published in
Russian. Chinese is already one of the world's major diplomatic and trade
linga francas, and somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of Chinese science and
technology journals already publish in Chinese. If you want to specialise
in solar power engineering, I suggest you learn German and Chinese.

In IT, we have this:

http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2014/02/cant-we-all-be-reasonable-and-speak-english/


I suspect that we're probably close to peak Anglophone science, and that in
the next decade or so the trend will reverse. My prediction is that over
the next half century, we'll return to a polyglot situation.


> Learn it like everybody else has to.

Stockholm Syndrome :-)

"I learned English, and so everyone else should too."

I often get the impression that many coders have an attitude that suffering
is good for their art. "If it was hard for me to write, it should be hard
for you to maintain" is part of it. Far too many coders love languages that
make good programming *hard* (but not too hard, of course), and resist
languages with garbage collection, compiler enforced safety, etc. It's not
a universal thing, of course, otherwise Python, Java, etc. would be tiny
niche languages, but the myth of the heroic genius programmer dies hard. I
think that inside every hacker there is tiny bit of admiration for Mel the
Real Programmer:

https://www.cs.utah.edu/~elb/folklore/mel.html

even if he didn't use a magnetised needle and a steady hand.

http://xkcd.com/378/



-- 
Steven

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#86650

Le dimanche 1 mars 2015 09:12:02 UTC+1, Steven D'Aprano a écrit :
> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> 
> > The language of science and technology is American English.
> 
> Not so. Despite claims that "99% of science publishing is done in English",
> there are still significant amounts of science and technology published in
> non-English languages. And the majority which is published in English
> doesn't necessarily use American English. 
> 
> E.g. I searched for article titles containing "colour" in The Lancet, the
> world's premier medical journal, and found 328 results, versus 8
> for "color".
> 
> http://www.thelancet.com/action/doSearch?searchType=quick&searchText=colour&occurrences=articleTitle&journalCode=&searchScope=fullSite
> 
> 
> Likewise Nature uses Oxford spelling:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_spelling
> 
> 
> 
> Not surprisingly, the use of English varies by field and nationality.
> According to this study:
> 
> http://www.researchtrends.com/issue-31-november-2012/the-language-of-future-scientific-communication/
> 
> Dutch scientists publish in English forty times as much as they publish in
> their native language, while Chinese scientists do so only twice as often.
> 
> According to astronaut Chris Hadfield's autobiography, being able to speak
> and read fluent Russian is essential for astronauts on the ISS, especially
> if they want to fly a Soyuz. I would expect that robotics is mostly written
> in Japanese.
> 
> It is not a given that science and technology should be (1) monlingual, and
> (2) using the language of the dominant political superpower. As this
> article points out, monoglot science is neither historically inevitable,
> nor necessarily a good thing:
> 
> http://aeon.co/magazine/science/how-did-science-come-to-speak-only-english/
> 
> Don't imagine for one second that the entire world is willing to meekly
> follow the path to American cultural hegemony:
> 
> http://www.goethe.de/lhr/prj/diw/dos/enindex.htm
> 
> (The irony of Germans publish pro-German articles in English has not escaped
> me, but if they had published them in German I wouldn't have found them.)
> 
> As Russia flexes its muscles and tries to reclaim it's co-superpower role,
> I'm sure that there will be more hard sciences and mathematics published in
> Russian. Chinese is already one of the world's major diplomatic and trade
> linga francas, and somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of Chinese science and
> technology journals already publish in Chinese. If you want to specialise
> in solar power engineering, I suggest you learn German and Chinese.
> 
> In IT, we have this:
> 
> http://blog.stackoverflow.com/2014/02/cant-we-all-be-reasonable-and-speak-english/
> 
> 
> I suspect that we're probably close to peak Anglophone science, and that in
> the next decade or so the trend will reverse. My prediction is that over
> the next half century, we'll return to a polyglot situation.
> 
> 
> > Learn it like everybody else has to.
> 
> Stockholm Syndrome :-)
> 
> "I learned English, and so everyone else should too."
> 
> I often get the impression that many coders have an attitude that suffering
> is good for their art. "If it was hard for me to write, it should be hard
> for you to maintain" is part of it. Far too many coders love languages that
> make good programming *hard* (but not too hard, of course), and resist
> languages with garbage collection, compiler enforced safety, etc. It's not
> a universal thing, of course, otherwise Python, Java, etc. would be tiny
> niche languages, but the myth of the heroic genius programmer dies hard. I
> think that inside every hacker there is tiny bit of admiration for Mel the
> Real Programmer:
> 
> https://www.cs.utah.edu/~elb/folklore/mel.html
> 
> even if he didn't use a magnetised needle and a steady hand.
> 
> http://xkcd.com/378/
> 
> 

=======================

Conclusion:

Implement Unicode correctly.
(Luckily for students at academic level and for me, it's not
only a disaster, it's buggy.)

In 15 years, I do not remember having seen once the BDFL
giving an explanation or an example with non ascii characters.
I guess, he does not know how to use a keyboard.

I tend to agree with the spirit of your comment.

jmf

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#86657

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:

> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Learn it like everybody else has to.
>
> Stockholm Syndrome :-)
>
> "I learned English, and so everyone else should too."

No, the point is that if everybody else has taken the trouble of
learning American English, it shouldn't be too much to ask for the
British to make an effort as well.

You can watch TV programmes at home, but in the office, you should be
writing Python programs.

(Spelling deviations are actually minor nuisances. A bigger problem is
when a Brit thinks they can use their home accent in international
contexts.)


Marko

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#86658

On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:16 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
> No, the point is that if everybody else has taken the trouble of
> learning American English, it shouldn't be too much to ask for the
> British to make an effort as well.
>
> You can watch TV programmes at home, but in the office, you should be
> writing Python programs.

A programme is what you sell for five bucks in the theatre lobby. A
program is something you execute to figure out how much money you lost
on the show. Different words.

> (Spelling deviations are actually minor nuisances. A bigger problem is
> when a Brit thinks they can use their home accent in international
> contexts.)

Of course, because there's one "international accent" that everyone
except the Brits use, isn't there?

ChrisA

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#86662

Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>:

> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:16 AM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:
>> (Spelling deviations are actually minor nuisances. A bigger problem
>> is when a Brit thinks they can use their home accent in international
>> contexts.)
>
> Of course, because there's one "international accent" that everyone
> except the Brits use, isn't there?

Well, every nonnative strives for the standard Hollywoodese and does a
decent job at that. But when I hear a Brit speak their native tongue, I
just "smile and wave, smile and wave" because I usually have little idea
what they are trying to explain.


Marko

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#86669

On 03/01/2015 09:58 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Well, every nonnative strives for the standard Hollywoodese and does a
> decent job at that. But when I hear a Brit speak their native tongue, I
> just "smile and wave, smile and wave" because I usually have little idea
> what they are trying to explain.

Ahh, I see.  Your reaction, then, is similar to what most international
English speakers do when they hear American politicians trying to speak
in folksy southern accents.

Seriously, though, it's interesting to note that in the previous
generations of Americans and Canadians, many people, including a
Hollywood actors, were taught elocution in schools, and a pseudo-posh
English (as in the country) sort of accent.  Completely fake of course
much like the Queen's accent.  My grandparents, for example had hints of
such an accent, particularly in certain words.  Christopher Plummer is a
great example of this half-posh accent.  Born and raised in Canada, he
certainly sounds nothing like common broad north American, and certainly
not common Canadian.  Just listening to recordings of radio
personalities and politicians from before 1950, and it's really
interesting to hear the differences between modern speaking, both in
accents and intonations.  Language changes.

If you want a bit of fun, listen to Patrick Stewart reciting a poem in
his native northern accent.  In school they drilled it out of him, I guess.

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#86673

Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com>:

> On 03/01/2015 09:58 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

>> Well, every nonnative strives for the standard Hollywoodese and does
>> a decent job at that. But when I hear a Brit speak their native
>> tongue, I just "smile and wave, smile and wave" because I usually
>> have little idea what they are trying to explain.
>
> Ahh, I see. Your reaction, then, is similar to what most international
> English speakers do when they hear American politicians trying to
> speak in folksy southern accents.

Yes. Note that the Atlanta-based CNN has standardized on a Hollywood
accent(*). Only occasionally do the anchors slip and the Georgia accent
shines through.


Marko

(*) With some fake artefacts. For example, "negotiate" is pronounced
hypercorrectly [nə'goʊsəeɪt] instead of the standard [nə'goʊʃəeɪt].

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#86688 — OT Accents [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Michael Torrie wrote:

> If you want a bit of fun, listen to Patrick Stewart reciting a poem in
> his native northern accent.  In school they drilled it out of him, I
> guess.

And then you have people like Alexis Denisof, husband to Alyson Hannigan,
best known for playing Wesley Wyndam-Pryce in Buffy and Angel, and for a
three second clip in The Avengers movie where he is in such heavy makeup
and prosthetics that he is almost unrecognisable. As Wesley, he has such a
sexy upper-crust British accent that he could could almost make straight
men turn. In real life, he sounds like Kermit the Frog on helium.



-- 
Steven

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#86659

On 01/03/2015 16:16, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:
>
>> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>> Learn it like everybody else has to.
>>
>> Stockholm Syndrome :-)
>>
>> "I learned English, and so everyone else should too."
>
> No, the point is that if everybody else has taken the trouble of
> learning American English, it shouldn't be too much to ask for the
> British to make an effort as well.
>
> You can watch TV programmes at home, but in the office, you should be
> writing Python programs.
>
> (Spelling deviations are actually minor nuisances. A bigger problem is
> when a Brit thinks they can use their home accent in international
> contexts.)
>
>
> Marko
>

Are you suggesting that we Brits have a single "home accent"?  If you 
are, you need to stand up as your voice is rather muffled.  That by the 
way is a British expression that may or may not be used around the 
Commonwealth.  Should we unlearn it to fit in with American English? 
Two chances, zero or none.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#86663

Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>:

> Are you suggesting that we Brits have a single "home accent"?  If you
> are, you need to stand up as your voice is rather muffled.  That by the
> way is a British expression that may or may not be used around the
> Commonwealth.  Should we unlearn it to fit in with American English? Two
> chances, zero or none.

What you (or I) speak in our native surroundings is up to you (and me).

However, when I exhange software engineering ideas with you, I wish both
of us could stick to American English.


Marko

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#86664

On 01/03/2015 17:01, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>:
>
>> Are you suggesting that we Brits have a single "home accent"?  If you
>> are, you need to stand up as your voice is rather muffled.  That by the
>> way is a British expression that may or may not be used around the
>> Commonwealth.  Should we unlearn it to fit in with American English? Two
>> chances, zero or none.
>
> What you (or I) speak in our native surroundings is up to you (and me).
>
> However, when I exhange software engineering ideas with you, I wish both
> of us could stick to American English.
>
>
> Marko
>

Well I'm not going to, so tough, or is that togh?  Colour, harbour, 
tyre, antogonise are the way I spell words, and I'm not changing the 
habits of a lifetime simply because I'm on a technical site.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#86665

Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>:

> On 01/03/2015 17:01, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> What you (or I) speak in our native surroundings is up to you (and
>> me).
>>
>> However, when I exhange software engineering ideas with you, I wish
>> both of us could stick to American English.
>
> Well I'm not going to, so tough, or is that togh? Colour, harbour,
> tyre, antogonise are the way I spell words, and I'm not changing the
> habits of a lifetime simply because I'm on a technical site.

Wow, a somewhat Chauvinistic attitude, wouldn't you say? The French will
learn it. The Germans will learn it. Us Finns will learn it. Only you
won't learn it because you won't change the habits of a lifetime.

I mean, nobody's taking away your native language. It's just that
everybody's got to learn a foreign language. The learning curve
shouldn't be too steep for a native Brit.


Marko

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#86666

On 01/03/2015 17:52, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>:
>
>> On 01/03/2015 17:01, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>> What you (or I) speak in our native surroundings is up to you (and
>>> me).
>>>
>>> However, when I exhange software engineering ideas with you, I wish
>>> both of us could stick to American English.
>>
>> Well I'm not going to, so tough, or is that togh? Colour, harbour,
>> tyre, antogonise are the way I spell words, and I'm not changing the
>> habits of a lifetime simply because I'm on a technical site.
>
> Wow, a somewhat Chauvinistic attitude, wouldn't you say? The French will
> learn it. The Germans will learn it. Us Finns will learn it. Only you
> won't learn it because you won't change the habits of a lifetime.
>
> I mean, nobody's taking away your native language. It's just that
> everybody's got to learn a foreign language. The learning curve
> shouldn't be too steep for a native Brit.
>
>
> Marko
>

I have German and Spanish 'O' levels taken 40 years ago.  I've no 
intention of going back to school to learn a dialect of my own language. 
  Why did those dumbos have to change it anyway, it's perfectly simple?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#86670

On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 19:52:32 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net>
wrote:
>
>I mean, nobody's taking away your native language. It's just that
>everybody's got to learn a foreign language. The learning curve
>shouldn't be too steep for a native Brit.

That's fine. But could you please point us to the ISO that details the
international standard for variable names? Or failing that, to the
public discussion that took place and decided American-English is the
de-facto language for variable names?

It would help seal your argumentation for american-english naming
conventions on a positive note.

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#86674

Le dimanche 1 mars 2015 19:32:28 UTC+1, Mario Figueiredo a écrit :
> On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 19:52:32 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net>
> wrote:
> >
> >I mean, nobody's taking away your native language. It's just that
> >everybody's got to learn a foreign language. The learning curve
> >shouldn't be too steep for a native Brit.
> 
> That's fine. But could you please point us to the ISO that details the
> international standard for variable names? Or failing that, to the
> public discussion that took place and decided American-English is the
> de-facto language for variable names?
> 
> It would help seal your argumentation for american-english naming
> conventions on a positive note.

=====

http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr31/

Python is doing very on that sile.

jmf

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