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Groups > comp.lang.python > #107077 > unrolled thread
| Started by | Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2016-04-16 14:38 +1000 |
| Last post | 2016-04-18 05:45 +1000 |
| Articles | 20 on this page of 142 — 36 participants |
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Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-16 14:38 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2016-04-16 08:05 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-16 11:06 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 18:32 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-16 11:51 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:30 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Michael Selik <michael.selik@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 09:34 +0000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-16 22:03 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Stephen Hansen <me+python@ixokai.io> - 2016-04-16 05:32 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 10:53 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-16 19:51 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 12:58 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-04-16 19:18 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 14:53 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated alex wright <wrightalexw@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 15:21 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-04-16 19:08 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-04-16 13:25 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-16 21:33 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-04-16 12:07 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-17 06:08 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-16 16:50 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 08:15 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-17 01:30 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 07:38 -0600
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-04-16 19:02 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-04-17 00:25 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 09:33 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Bacarisse <ben.usenet@bsb.me.uk> - 2016-04-17 01:29 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated alex wright <wrightalexw@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 19:43 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 09:11 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 23:19 +0000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-16 19:12 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2016-04-17 01:24 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-16 20:30 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Coos Haak <chforth@hccnet.nl> - 2016-04-17 16:35 +0200
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-17 13:11 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-16 21:59 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-16 20:44 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 13:49 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 18:39 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-18 13:19 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 20:48 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated David Palao <dpalao.python@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 13:35 +0200
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-04-17 11:04 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 21:06 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-04-18 21:03 +1200
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 04:07 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-17 14:01 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 21:14 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2016-04-17 13:04 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-17 15:10 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-18 08:13 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-18 11:57 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-18 11:02 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-04-18 20:43 +1200
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-18 12:17 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated eryk sun <eryksun@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 00:01 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-17 01:10 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated eryk sun <eryksun@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 03:14 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-04-17 12:13 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated eryk sun <eryksun@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 15:24 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 14:41 -0600
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-04-18 11:56 +1200
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-17 20:29 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Sivan Greenberg <sivan@vitakka.co> - 2016-04-18 16:35 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 22:14 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 15:29 -0600
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 23:20 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-04-19 17:39 +1200
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-19 08:58 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2016-04-18 18:19 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 20:04 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-18 23:29 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 20:54 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-19 00:11 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 05:55 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-19 10:05 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 00:13 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 08:34 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-19 18:04 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-19 11:09 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 18:17 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 04:37 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-19 08:17 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 07:10 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 14:15 +0000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 07:54 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 01:50 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 01:58 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 13:06 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2016-04-19 17:13 +0000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 00:24 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 02:14 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 09:46 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-19 12:43 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 11:05 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-19 14:54 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 10:34 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-19 22:02 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 11:38 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 12:21 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-04-19 23:23 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 13:41 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-04-20 02:08 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-04-20 00:48 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 10:24 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 10:26 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-04-20 07:51 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 21:04 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-20 06:50 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 06:59 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-20 00:35 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 11:03 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 21:13 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2016-04-20 18:39 +1200
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2016-04-19 14:43 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2016-04-19 19:20 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Grant Edwards <grant.b.edwards@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 23:22 +0000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-20 09:33 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-19 19:02 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-20 10:32 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-19 21:57 -0400
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-04-19 01:49 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2016-04-19 11:49 +0100
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-19 14:47 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 05:06 -0700
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2016-04-19 15:14 +0300
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2016-04-19 15:07 +0200
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-19 08:31 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-19 23:41 +1000
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2016-04-19 08:50 -0500
Re: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated Alice Bevan–McGregor <alice@gothcandy.com> - 2016-04-19 10:45 -0400
Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-04-17 06:21 +1000
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 06:31 +1000
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-04-16 16:44 -0400
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2016-04-16 21:22 +0000
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-17 07:34 +1000
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2016-04-16 23:35 +0000
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-17 11:48 +1000
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2016-04-17 03:52 +0000
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-04-17 11:38 +1000
Re: Falsehoods People Believe about PEP 8 (was: Guido sees the light: PEP 8 updated) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-04-18 05:45 +1000
Page 4 of 8 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 [4] 5 6 7 8 Next page →
| From | eryk sun <eryksun@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-17 15:24 -0500 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.114.1460924684.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107101 |
On Sun, Apr 17, 2016 at 11:13 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber
<wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> On Sat, 16 Apr 2016 21:59:01 -0400, Random832 <random832@fastmail.com>
> declaimed the following:
>>
>>I heard Windows 10 is going to finally fix this, anyway.
>
> Probably by removing the old CLI window completely and making everyone
> learn PowerShell ISE
PowerShell ISE doesn't support interactive console applications. It
runs console apps with a hidden console (conhost.exe) and sets the
StandardOutput and StandardError to pipes. It leaves StandardInput set
to the console input handle. If you run python.exe in this
environment, you can use ctypes to show the console. Then enter
commands in the console, and get the output in ISE. Or rebind
sys.stdout and sys.stderr to \\.\CONOUT$ handles and forget about ISE,
which is really only meant for developing PowerShell scripts.
Microsoft won't abandon existing console programs, such as python.exe.
The console system was fairly stagnant between NT 4 and Vista. In
Windows 7, they changed how it interacts with a Windows session, by
moving the server out of csrss.exe to multiple conhost.exe instances.
In Windows 8, they reimplemented the API to use a kernel device
driver, condrv.sys. For Windows 10, they've focused on improving the
user interface:
https://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2014/10/07/
console-improvements-in-the-windows-10-technical-preview
There's a new blog dedicated to Windows command-line tools, which
should be the place to look for announcements about the console
subsystem and the new Linux command-line environment that depends on
the console:
https://blogs.msdn.microsoft.com/commandline
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-17 14:41 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.116.1460925709.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107101 |
On 04/17/2016 10:13 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: > On Sat, 16 Apr 2016 21:59:01 -0400, Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> > declaimed the following: > >> >> I heard Windows 10 is going to finally fix this, anyway. > > Probably by removing the old CLI window completely and making everyone > learn PowerShell ISE Or a Linux ELF bash binary running on the new Linux subsystem for Windows. :)
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-18 11:56 +1200 |
| Message-ID | <dnim5aFn2qtU1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #107198 |
Michael Torrie wrote: > On 04/17/2016 10:13 AM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: > >>On Sat, 16 Apr 2016 21:59:01 -0400, Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> >>declaimed the following: >> >> >>>I heard Windows 10 is going to finally fix this, anyway. >> >> Probably by removing the old CLI window completely and making everyone >>learn PowerShell ISE > > > Or a Linux ELF bash binary running on the new Linux subsystem for > Windows. :) And then legacy command-line exes will be supported by running cmd.exe under WINE in the Linux subsystem. -- Greg
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| From | Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-17 20:29 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.126.1460939367.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107207 |
On Sun, Apr 17, 2016, at 19:56, Gregory Ewing wrote: > And then legacy command-line exes will be supported by running > cmd.exe under WINE in the Linux subsystem. Running the command directly under WINE, more like. Because cmd.exe is pretty terrible as a scripting language and command interpreter (MS knows this, this is why they created PowerShell), and isn't required to run console programs.
[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]
| From | Sivan Greenberg <sivan@vitakka.co> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-18 16:35 +0300 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.151.1460986528.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107101 |
On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 8:25 PM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote: > On 4/16/2016 12:58 PM, Larry Martell wrote: > >> On Sat, Apr 16, 2016 at 12:51 PM, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> >> wrote: >> >>> Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com>: >>> >>> I have worked for many companies where you are required to get a clean >>>> run of pep8 on your code before your pull request will even be >>>> considered for approval. I don't agree with this at all, as I think it >>>> makes the code very ugly, especially enforcing the max line length. >>>> >>> >>> Agh, I was with you until your last remark. >>> >>> A max line length of 79 characters is among the *only* rigorous >>> principles I judge coding style on. >>> >>> It comes with the maxim that one function must be visible at once on the >>> screen. >>> >> >> if we still had 1970's 80 character TTYs that would matter but on my >> 29" 1920x1080 screen it doesn't. >> > > It depends on whether one prefers to use the extra width to have long > lines or side-by-side windows. I prefer the latter. That's my use case as well, and why I admire the forethought in the width length. Side by side windows rock when doing TTD. -Sivan
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| From | Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-18 22:14 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <m18u0a1uxx.fsf@iKarel.lan> |
| In reply to | #107270 |
Why is it that Python continues to use a fixed width font and therefore specifies the maximum line width as a character count? An essential part of the language is indentation which ought to continue to mandate that lines start with a multiple of 4 em worth of space (or some other size or encode with hard tabs, that is not germane to my question). The content of the line need not be bound by the rules needed to position its start. -- Pete Forman
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| From | Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-18 15:29 -0600 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.157.1461015031.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107277 |
On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> wrote: > Why is it that Python continues to use a fixed width font and therefore > specifies the maximum line width as a character count? > > An essential part of the language is indentation which ought to continue > to mandate that lines start with a multiple of 4 em worth of space (or > some other size or encode with hard tabs, that is not germane to my > question). The content of the line need not be bound by the rules needed > to position its start. How many spaces is "4 em worth"? How would you incorporate that into the Python compiler or a linter without needing to know what particular font the programmer is using? What happens when another programmer reviews the code using a different font and finds that there is only 3.5em worth of space? Do we descend into Calibri / Verdana line-length edit wars?
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| From | Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-18 23:20 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <m14may1rvq.fsf@iKarel.lan> |
| In reply to | #107278 |
Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> writes: > On Mon, Apr 18, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> wrote: >> Why is it that Python continues to use a fixed width font and >> therefore specifies the maximum line width as a character count? >> >> An essential part of the language is indentation which ought to >> continue to mandate that lines start with a multiple of 4 em worth of >> space (or some other size or encode with hard tabs, that is not >> germane to my question). The content of the line need not be bound by >> the rules needed to position its start. > > How many spaces is "4 em worth"? How would you incorporate that into > the Python compiler or a linter without needing to know what > particular font the programmer is using? What happens when another > programmer reviews the code using a different font and finds that > there is only 3.5em worth of space? Do we descend into Calibri / > Verdana line-length edit wars? 4 em is what PEP 8 implies, with the implicit use of a monospaced font. I was trying to convey that the mechanics of indentation was not relevant to my question about why Python and indeed other programming languages are rarely edited or viewed with proportional fonts. The programmer, other humans reading the source and the interpreter need to be able to discern structure by the indentation. It is what follows the indentation that interests me. The current Python interpreter will happily digest a combination of spaces and hard tabs as long as consistency rules are obeyed. My question was intended to concentrate on the presentation after the leading whitespace. -- Pete Forman
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| From | Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-19 17:39 +1200 |
| Message-ID | <dnlujqFhbe0U1@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #107278 |
Ian Kelly wrote: > What happens when another > programmer reviews the code using a different font and finds that > there is only 3.5em worth of space? Do we descend into Calibri / > Verdana line-length edit wars? That's easy, we just decree that all Python source code is to be displayed in this font: http://fontstruct.com/fontstructions/show/89341/flying_circus -- Greg
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| From | Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-19 08:58 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.158.1461020334.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107277 |
Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> writes: > Why is it that Python continues to use a fixed width font I think you know this isn't true. > and therefore specifies the maximum line width as a character count? and that this “therefore” is not justified by that. You've seen elsewhere the justification for *having* a maximum line width (primarily because of limits on human cognition of lines of text). As for what the limit *is*, it's much better to have an easy-to-apply and easy-to-measure rule, because consistent application is important for such a guide. Counting characters is objectively easy and easily comparable. -- \ “I think Western civilization is more enlightened precisely | `\ because we have learned how to ignore our religious leaders.” | _o__) —Bill Maher, 2003 | Ben Finney
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| From | sohcahtoa82@gmail.com |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-18 18:19 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <a5f54de9-f1e7-4d37-a479-12c04728c84a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #107277 |
On Monday, April 18, 2016 at 2:14:17 PM UTC-7, Pete Forman wrote: > Why is it that Python continues to use a fixed width font and therefore > specifies the maximum line width as a character count? > > An essential part of the language is indentation which ought to continue > to mandate that lines start with a multiple of 4 em worth of space (or > some other size or encode with hard tabs, that is not germane to my > question). The content of the line need not be bound by the rules needed > to position its start. > > -- > Pete Forman "Why is it that Python continues to use a fixed width font " This guy is trolling, right?
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| From | Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-18 20:04 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <93639142-6b82-4b8a-8bd0-7f4593e1f692@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #107286 |
On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 6:49:34 AM UTC+5:30, sohcatoa wrote: > On Monday, April 18, 2016 at 2:14:17 PM UTC-7, Pete Forman wrote: > > Why is it that Python continues to use a fixed width font and therefore > > specifies the maximum line width as a character count? > > > > An essential part of the language is indentation which ought to continue > > to mandate that lines start with a multiple of 4 em worth of space (or > > some other size or encode with hard tabs, that is not germane to my > > question). The content of the line need not be bound by the rules needed > > to position its start. > > > > -- > > Pete Forman > > "Why is it that Python continues to use a fixed width font " > > This guy is trolling, right? See elastic tabstops: http://nickgravgaard.com/elastic-tabstops/ And more generally that programmers sticking to text when rest of world has moved on is rather backward: http://blog.languager.org/2012/10/html-is-why-mess-in-programming-syntax.html
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| From | Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-18 23:29 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.160.1461036598.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107287 |
On Mon, Apr 18, 2016, at 23:04, Rustom Mody wrote:
> See elastic tabstops: http://nickgravgaard.com/elastic-tabstops/
>From there:
>A column block is a run of uninterrupted vertically adjacent cells.
How's that going to handle this case:
if foo: # comment that is aligned
do some stuff # across multiple indent levels
As far as I can tell, the model being proposed would align the indented
code either with the first line's comment, or somewhere after the colon.
I think it's excessively "clever" to think you can or should use the
same model to solve indentation as other forms of alignment.
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| From | Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-18 20:54 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <8b3aa2c6-4314-446a-a894-fe61451a373a@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #107288 |
On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 9:00:12 AM UTC+5:30, Random832 wrote: > On Mon, Apr 18, 2016, at 23:04, Rustom Mody wrote: > > See elastic tabstops: http://nickgravgaard.com/elastic-tabstops/ > > >From there: > >A column block is a run of uninterrupted vertically adjacent cells. > > How's that going to handle this case: > > if foo: # comment that is aligned > do some stuff # across multiple indent levels Just tried it with the jar file¹ he supplies and it seems to work Start no tabs: if foo# comment that is aligned do some stuff# across multiple indent levels Add tabs as leading indents with second line indented 1 tab more (showing tabs as |) |if foo# comment that is aligned ||do some stuff# across multiple indent levels Indent the first comment with 2 tabs At this point the first comment is/shows lefter than the second Indent the second with 1 tab -- the two #es now line up The invariant of course is clear -- if the total no of tabs in the line prior to the char are equal then all such lines line up ¹ yeah thats not very secure! And does not work with open java, works with Sun/Oracle java
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| From | Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-19 00:11 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.161.1461039066.6324.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107289 |
On Mon, Apr 18, 2016, at 23:54, Rustom Mody wrote:
> Start no tabs:
> if foo# comment that is aligned
> do some stuff# across multiple indent levels
>
> Add tabs as leading indents with second line indented 1 tab more
> (showing tabs as |)
> |if foo# comment that is aligned
> ||do some stuff# across multiple indent levels
>
> Indent the first comment with 2 tabs
> At this point the first comment is/shows lefter than the second
>
> Indent the second with 1 tab -- the two #es now line up
Yeah but now the second line of code is to the right of the whole first
line of code. "if foo" must have been too short to illustrate it (it's
long enough if a tab is four spaces, but I guess it's longer in the
sample), but I assumed you would get the concept of what I was saying
and try putting something longer there or try extending the comments in
the C code the sample preloads.
Like, it ends up looking like this:
if foo("what if it's a much longer condition"): # comment
do something #
comment2
There's no way to get this:
if foo("what if it's a much longer condition"): # comment
do something # comment2
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| From | Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-19 05:55 -0700 |
| Message-ID | <0536e5a3-793f-44b3-87cc-5743bcf2a6a9@googlegroups.com> |
| In reply to | #107291 |
On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 9:41:24 AM UTC+5:30, Random832 wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 18, 2016, at 23:54, Rustom Mody wrote:
> > Start no tabs:
> > if foo# comment that is aligned
> > do some stuff# across multiple indent levels
> >
> > Add tabs as leading indents with second line indented 1 tab more
> > (showing tabs as |)
> > |if foo# comment that is aligned
> > ||do some stuff# across multiple indent levels
> >
> > Indent the first comment with 2 tabs
> > At this point the first comment is/shows lefter than the second
> >
> > Indent the second with 1 tab -- the two #es now line up
>
> Yeah but now the second line of code is to the right of the whole first
> line of code. "if foo" must have been too short to illustrate it (it's
> long enough if a tab is four spaces, but I guess it's longer in the
> sample), but I assumed you would get the concept of what I was saying
> and try putting something longer there or try extending the comments in
> the C code the sample preloads.
>
> Like, it ends up looking like this:
>
> if foo("what if it's a much longer condition"): # comment
> do something #
> comment2
>
> There's no way to get this:
>
> if foo("what if it's a much longer condition"): # comment
> do something # comment2
I get it looking quite nice if I put a tab between "foo" and "("
Is that an acceptable solution?? Dunno...
html tables need all sorts of 'un-table-ifying' options
eg column/row groups, tables within tables and what not.
At which point we cross the point of diminishing returns is not clear
when we are still armchair discussing.
For something a bit more practical here is emacs (orgtbl mode) doing html tables:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQAd41VAXWo
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| From | Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-19 10:05 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.17.1461074751.30862.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107317 |
On Tue, Apr 19, 2016, at 08:55, Rustom Mody wrote:
> > Like, it ends up looking like this:
> >
> > if foo("what if it's a much longer condition"): # comment
> > do something #
> > comment2
> >
> > There's no way to get this:
> >
> > if foo("what if it's a much longer condition"): # comment
> > do something # comment2
>
> I get it looking quite nice if I put a tab between "foo" and "("
> Is that an acceptable solution?? Dunno...
No, because what if "foo" is much longer? You could put a tab after
"if", but that means while-blocks are indented further than if-blocks.
And that just delays the problem to the third indent block, you've got
to find something to line that up to.
if foo("blah blah blah"): # comment
if bar("etc etc etc etc"): # comment
do stuff # comment
becomes
if foo ("blah blah blah"): # comment
if bar ("etc etc etc etc"): # comment
do stuff # comment
Maybe what we really need is a way to _display_ a multiline comment at
the right margin (and hanging down for as many lines as it needs),
without having it baked into the source code that way.
Source file contains:
### Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Etiam
### ut mattis leo. In sed arcu gravida, consequat tellus placerat,
### ullamcorper metus.
if foo:
if bar:
do stuff
###
some other stuff
(the last ### is just an empty comment to push stuff after it down past
the first comment - if another comment is there instead, it will be
displayed starting from the "some other stuff" line)
Displays as:
if foo: # Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur
if bar: # adipiscing elit. Etiam ut mattis leo. In sed
do stuff # arcu gravida, consequat tellus
# placerat, ullamcorper metus.
some other stuff
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| From | Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-20 00:13 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.19.1461075183.30862.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107317 |
On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 12:05 AM, Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> wrote: > Source file contains: > ### Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Etiam > ### ut mattis leo. In sed arcu gravida, consequat tellus placerat, > ### ullamcorper metus. > if foo: > if bar: > do stuff > ### > some other stuff > > (the last ### is just an empty comment to push stuff after it down past > the first comment - if another comment is there instead, it will be > displayed starting from the "some other stuff" line) > > Displays as: > > if foo: # Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur > if bar: # adipiscing elit. Etiam ut mattis leo. In sed > do stuff # arcu gravida, consequat tellus > # placerat, ullamcorper metus. > > some other stuff Why does it need to be displayed to the right, though? Do we gain anything by not having the comment above the code? ChrisA
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| From | Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-19 08:34 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <m1zisqyruk.fsf@iKarel.lan> |
| In reply to | #107287 |
Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes: > On Tuesday, April 19, 2016 at 6:49:34 AM UTC+5:30, sohcatoa wrote: >> On Monday, April 18, 2016 at 2:14:17 PM UTC-7, Pete Forman wrote: >> > Why is it that Python continues to use a fixed width font and therefore >> > specifies the maximum line width as a character count? >> > >> > An essential part of the language is indentation which ought to continue >> > to mandate that lines start with a multiple of 4 em worth of space (or >> > some other size or encode with hard tabs, that is not germane to my >> > question). The content of the line need not be bound by the rules needed >> > to position its start. >> > >> > -- >> > Pete Forman >> >> "Why is it that Python continues to use a fixed width font " >> >> This guy is trolling, right? No, it is a genuine question. It applies to computer langauges in general but this thread is about PEP 8 so I framed it for Python. I was not proposing a change to the langauge. > See elastic tabstops: http://nickgravgaard.com/elastic-tabstops/ I like that Nick separates out the concept of alignment with implicit semantics from the n spaces v tabs arguments. My question asks why monospace is used for the text. > And more generally that programmers sticking to text when rest of > world has moved on is rather backward: > http://blog.languager.org/2012/10/html-is-why-mess-in-programming-syntax.html -- Pete Forman
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| From | Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2016-04-19 18:04 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <mailman.2.1461053078.30862.python-list@python.org> |
| In reply to | #107297 |
Pete Forman <petef4+usenet@gmail.com> writes: > My question asks why monospace is used for the text. Used by whom? Python the programming language (and that includes PEP 8) has nothing to say about what font you use in your text editor. -- \ “Why should I care about posterity? What's posterity ever done | `\ for me?” —Groucho Marx | _o__) | Ben Finney
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