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the best online course

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  the best online course nickpetros32@gmail.com - 2016-07-06 12:28 -0700
    Re: the best online course Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-07 07:04 +1000
      Re: the best online course Malik Rumi <malik.a.rumi@gmail.com> - 2016-07-09 14:37 -0700
        Re: the best online course Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-10 07:57 +1000
        Re: the best online course Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-07-09 16:09 -0700
        Re: the best online course Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-07-10 09:21 +1000
        Re: the best online course Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2016-07-10 08:18 +0100
          Re: the best online course Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-07-10 10:06 -0700
            Re: the best online course Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-10 20:07 -0700
              Re: the best online course Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-07-11 15:33 +1000
                Re: the best online course Bob Martin <bob.martin@excite.com> - 2016-07-11 07:05 +0100
                Re: the best online course Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-10 23:40 -0700
        Re: the best online course Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-07-10 21:29 -0700
    Re: the best online course Jay Thompson <jayryan.thompson@gmail.com> - 2016-07-06 14:11 -0700
    Re: the best online course Lawrence D’Oliveiro <lawrencedo99@gmail.com> - 2016-07-06 17:50 -0700
      Re: the best online course Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2016-07-06 21:07 -0600
        Re: the best online course Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-07-07 23:34 -0700

#111177 — the best online course

Hello,
i am totaly beginner and i want to learn python.
I have see that there is many course in codeacademy, udemy, treehouse etc but i not know who is the best.
Can you please give me some advice?
I want to be easy and not bored so i can learn python.
Thank you and sorry for my bad english

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#111178

On Thu, Jul 7, 2016 at 5:28 AM,  <nickpetros32@gmail.com> wrote:
> i am totaly beginner and i want to learn python.
> I have see that there is many course in codeacademy, udemy, treehouse etc but i not know who is the best.
> Can you please give me some advice?
> I want to be easy and not bored so i can learn python.
> Thank you and sorry for my bad english

Unfortunately, 'best' is hard to define. What are you looking for?
There are courses you pay money for, and there are courses you can do
for free; there are intensive courses for those who want to seriously
knuckle down and learn, and there are casual courses for those who
want to fit it around other things; and so on.

ChrisA

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#111229

I want one of those "knuckle down and learn" classes. But even more than that, I want a class with a real teacher who is available to answer questions and explain things. I've done a lot of books and online video, but there's usually no help. If I search around long enough, I can often find an answer, but this is just way too fragmented for me. Where can I find classes like that - online - paid or free? Thanks.

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#111232

On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 7:37 AM, Malik Rumi <malik.a.rumi@gmail.com> wrote:
> I want one of those "knuckle down and learn" classes. But even more than that, I want a class with a real teacher who is available to answer questions and explain things. I've done a lot of books and online video, but there's usually no help. If I search around long enough, I can often find an answer, but this is just way too fragmented for me. Where can I find classes like that - online - paid or free? Thanks.
>

Yes, they definitely exist. I work with a company called Thinkful
(www.thinkful.com) which does what you're talking about - you get a
personal mentor with whom you meet regularly, plus access to a number
of experts. It's a paid course. There are other such courses around,
too, but I don't personally know their effectiveness.

ChrisA

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#111233

On 07/09/2016 02:57 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 7:37 AM, Malik Rumi wrote:

>> I want one of those "knuckle down and learn" classes. But even more
 >> than that, I want a class with a real teacher who is available to
 >> answer questions and explain things. I've done a lot of books and
 >> online video, but there's usually no help. If I search around long
 >> enough, I can often find an answer, but this is just way too fragmented
 >> for me. Where can I find classes like that - online - paid or free? 
Thanks.
>
> Yes, they definitely exist. I work with a company called Thinkful
> (www.thinkful.com) which does what you're talking about - you get a
> personal mentor with whom you meet regularly, plus access to a number
> of experts. It's a paid course. There are other such courses around,
> too, but I don't personally know their effectiveness.

Udacity.com is another.  They have several free classes, or you can pay 
and get access to instructors.

--
~Ethan~

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#111234

On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 9:09 AM, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> On 07/09/2016 02:57 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Jul 10, 2016 at 7:37 AM, Malik Rumi wrote:
>
>
>>> I want one of those "knuckle down and learn" classes. But even more
>
>>> than that, I want a class with a real teacher who is available to
>>> answer questions and explain things. I've done a lot of books and
>>> online video, but there's usually no help. If I search around long
>>> enough, I can often find an answer, but this is just way too fragmented
>>> for me. Where can I find classes like that - online - paid or free?
>>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>> Yes, they definitely exist. I work with a company called Thinkful
>> (www.thinkful.com) which does what you're talking about - you get a
>> personal mentor with whom you meet regularly, plus access to a number
>> of experts. It's a paid course. There are other such courses around,
>> too, but I don't personally know their effectiveness.
>
>
> Udacity.com is another.  They have several free classes, or you can pay and
> get access to instructors.

Yes, I hear a lot about Udacity. Has anyone taken any of the pay-for
classes? Are the instructors helpful, skilled, etc? Did it seem like
good value for money?

ChrisA

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#111236

in 762247 20160709 223746 Malik Rumi <malik.a.rumi@gmail.com> wrote:
>I want one of those "knuckle down and learn" classes. But even more than th=
>at, I want a class with a real teacher who is available to answer questions=
>and explain things. I've done a lot of books and online video, but there's=
>usually no help. If I search around long enough, I can often find an answe=
>r, but this is just way too fragmented for me. Where can I find classes lik=
>e that - online - paid or free? Thanks.

Having to work for your answer means you are more likely to remember it.

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#111253

On 07/10/2016 12:18 AM, Bob Martin wrote:
> in 762247 20160709 223746 Malik Rumi wrote:

>> I want one of those "knuckle down and learn" classes. But even more than th=
>> at, I want a class with a real teacher who is available to answer questions=
>> and explain things. I've done a lot of books and online video, but there's=
>> usually no help. If I search around long enough, I can often find an answe=
>> r, but this is just way too fragmented for me. Where can I find classes lik=
>> e that - online - paid or free? Thanks.
>
> Having to work for your answer means you are more likely to remember it.

True, but like most things there is a balance -- searching for hours for 
an answer is frustrating and discouraging, and the thing most likely 
remembered is not the answer the pain in finding it.

--
~Ethan~

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#111260

On Sunday, July 10, 2016 at 10:36:39 PM UTC+5:30, Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 07/10/2016 12:18 AM, Bob Martin wrote:
> > in 762247 20160709 223746 Malik Rumi wrote:
> 
> >> I want one of those "knuckle down and learn" classes. But even more than th=
> >> at, I want a class with a real teacher who is available to answer questions=
> >> and explain things. I've done a lot of books and online video, but there's=
> >> usually no help. If I search around long enough, I can often find an answe=
> >> r, but this is just way too fragmented for me. Where can I find classes lik=
> >> e that - online - paid or free? Thanks.
> >
> > Having to work for your answer means you are more likely to remember it.
> 
> True, but like most things there is a balance -- searching for hours for 
> an answer is frustrating and discouraging, and the thing most likely 
> remembered is not the answer the pain in finding it.

Yes balance is key…
Bruno Buchberger formulated the “blackbox-whitebox principle” :

=======================================
Although math software systems, in particular those based on advance symbolic 
computation techniques, are now heavily considered for improving and supporting 
math teaching all over the world, there is still a lot of confusion about their 
appropriate use in math teaching. There seems to exist an unbridgeable 
disagreement between those who believe that these systems must not be used in 
teaching in order not to "spoil the abilities of the students" and those who 
believe that, with the availability of these systems, teaching the mathematical 
techniques covered by theses systems is not any more necessary and , rather we 
should confine ourselves to teach how to use of these systems.

For bridging this disagreement I introduced, in 1989, the "White-Box / 
Black-Box Principle" for the didactics of using symbolic computation systems in 
math teaching: I am advocating that, in the "white-box" phase of teaching a 
particular mathematical topic (i.e. the phase in which the topic is new to the 
students), the pertinent parts of the SC systems should not be used, while in 
the "black-box" phase (in which the students completely master the new topic), 
it is essential for modern teaching of math to use these systems. The principle 
is recursive because, what was "white-box" in a particular phase of teaching 
becomes "black-box" in a later stage and new topics become "white-box" that use earlier "black boxes" as building blocks. 
====================================================

This was formulated in 1989 for computer algebra systems
http://www.risc.jku.at/people/buchberger/white_box.html

Today it applies across the board to anything, any field…

Python is good for black-box – us the ‘batteries included’ without worrying too
much how they are made
Scheme, assembly language, Turing machines etc are at the other end of the
spectrum

People wanting to learn should (IMHO) experience both sides

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#111264

On Monday 11 July 2016 13:07, Rustom Mody wrote:

> Python is good for black-box – us the ‘batteries included’ without worrying
> too much how they are made
> Scheme, assembly language, Turing machines etc are at the other end of the
> spectrum

I would put it the other way.

Python is excellent for "white boxes", because the syntax is extremely 
approachable, easy to read and comprehend. (Although you may wish to avoid some 
of the more complicated and hairy features if your emphasis is on learning.) 
It's famous for being "executable pseudo-code" and neither too concise nor too 
verbose, and lacks the syntactic cruft which can impede understanding (braces, 
type declarations), which makes it excellent for teaching about algorithms, 
etc. But for some tasks, at least, it may lack speed and efficiency to be a 
practical "black box".

Scheme, assembly, C, Forth etc are excellent for black boxes, as they are 
extremely efficient languages, but not so approachable, readable and 
comprehensible.

Turing machines are to be avoided except for academic proofs that a certain 
feature or language is equivalent to a Turing machine, in which case we know 
precisely how much power it has, computation-wise. Turing machines are neither 
efficient enough to be used as black boxes, nor comprehensible enough to be 
used for white boxes.

Take Python's StringIO class. Would you rather *read* the Python version or the 
C version? Which would you rather *use*?



-- 
Steve

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#111266

in 762282 20160711 063300 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>On Monday 11 July 2016 13:07, Rustom Mody wrote:
>
>> Python is good for black-box – us the ‘batteries included’ without worrying
>> too much how they are made
>> Scheme, assembly language, Turing machines etc are at the other end of the
>> spectrum
>
>I would put it the other way.
>
>Python is excellent for "white boxes", because the syntax is extremely
>approachable, easy to read and comprehend. (Although you may wish to avoid some
>of the more complicated and hairy features if your emphasis is on learning.)
>It's famous for being "executable pseudo-code" and neither too concise nor too
>verbose, and lacks the syntactic cruft which can impede understanding (braces,
>type declarations), which makes it excellent for teaching about algorithms,
>etc. But for some tasks, at least, it may lack speed and efficiency to be a
>practical "black box".
>
>Scheme, assembly, C, Forth etc are excellent for black boxes, as they are
>extremely efficient languages, but not so approachable, readable and
>comprehensible.
>
>Turing machines are to be avoided except for academic proofs that a certain
>feature or language is equivalent to a Turing machine, in which case we know
>precisely how much power it has, computation-wise. Turing machines are neither
>efficient enough to be used as black boxes, nor comprehensible enough to be
>used for white boxes.
>
>Take Python's StringIO class. Would you rather *read* the Python version or the
>C version? Which would you rather *use*?

The Rexx version  :-))

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#111267

On Monday, July 11, 2016 at 11:03:37 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Monday 11 July 2016 13:07, Rustom Mody wrote:
> 
> > Python is good for black-box – us the ‘batteries included’ without worrying
> > too much how they are made
> > Scheme, assembly language, Turing machines etc are at the other end of the
> > spectrum
> 
> I would put it the other way.
> 
> Python is excellent for "white boxes", because the syntax is extremely 
> approachable, easy to read and comprehend. (Although you may wish to avoid some 
> of the more complicated and hairy features if your emphasis is on learning.) 
> It's famous for being "executable pseudo-code" and neither too concise nor too 
> verbose, and lacks the syntactic cruft which can impede understanding (braces, 
> type declarations), which makes it excellent for teaching about algorithms, 
> etc. But for some tasks, at least, it may lack speed and efficiency to be a 
> practical "black box".
> 
> Scheme, assembly, C, Forth etc are excellent for black boxes, as they are 
> extremely efficient languages, but not so approachable, readable and 
> comprehensible.
> 
> Turing machines are to be avoided except for academic proofs that a certain 
> feature or language is equivalent to a Turing machine, in which case we know 
> precisely how much power it has, computation-wise. Turing machines are neither 
> efficient enough to be used as black boxes, nor comprehensible enough to be 
> used for white boxes.
> 
> Take Python's StringIO class. Would you rather *read* the Python version or the 
> C version? Which would you rather *use*?

Black box and White box are not mutually exclusive – I think that is one basic
point of Buchberger.
So your examples are fine [Though I dunno what you mean by scheme is efficient]

Here are some examples in the complementary sense

Most used python web framework seems to be Django
How much python does a Django programmer need to know?

Want to play around with a symbolic algebra system?
Install sympy and start off.  How much python is needed?

By contrast, polynomial addition/multiplication (in C) is a typical intermediate
data structure project [You can slot python either way on this one]

A lisp interpreter in lisp is one page/one hour
http://www.paulgraham.com/mcilroy.html
gcc in gcc is 15 million lines 
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=MTg3OTQ

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#111261

On 07/09/2016 04:21 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:

> Yes, I hear a lot about Udacity. Has anyone taken any of the pay-for
> classes? Are the instructors helpful, skilled, etc? Did it seem like
> good value for money?

Yes.  Yes, yes.  Yes.  :)

--
~Ethan~

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#111179

There are a ton of great resources on
https://wiki.python.org/moin/BeginnersGuide . The resource I generally
recommend to people first is "Learn Python The Hard Way" @
http://learnpythonthehardway.org/ . The course is $29.95 and worth every
penny but if you can't afford it the author has made the course available
for free. Just scroll to the bottom of the page to find the link.

On Wed, Jul 6, 2016 at 12:28 PM, <nickpetros32@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello,
> i am totaly beginner and i want to learn python.
> I have see that there is many course in codeacademy, udemy, treehouse etc
> but i not know who is the best.
> Can you please give me some advice?
> I want to be easy and not bored so i can learn python.
> Thank you and sorry for my bad english
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>



-- 
"It's quite difficult to remind people that all this stuff was here for a
million years before people. So the idea that we are required to manage it
is ridiculous. What we are having to manage is us."   ...Bill Ballantine.

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#111180

On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 7:28:38 AM UTC+12, nickpe...@gmail.com wrote:

> i am totaly beginner and i want to learn python.

Write code.

> I want to be easy and not bored so i can learn python.

There is no Royal Road, nothing is going to be handed to you on a plate.

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#111181

On 07/06/2016 06:50 PM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
>> I want to be easy and not bored so i can learn python.
> 
> There is no Royal Road, nothing is going to be handed to you on a plate.

Seconded.  If he gets bored easily, he will not be very successful at
learning Python or any other programming language.  The challenge of
programming by itself should be enough to give fulfillment if he's to be
successful at it.

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#111200

On Thursday, July 7, 2016 at 8:38:15 AM UTC+5:30, Michael Torrie wrote:
> On 07/06/2016 06:50 PM, Lawrence D’Oliveiro wrote:
> >> I want to be easy and not bored so i can learn python.
> > 
> > There is no Royal Road, nothing is going to be handed to you on a plate.
> 
> Seconded.  If he gets bored easily, he will not be very successful at
> learning Python or any other programming language.  The challenge of
> programming by itself should be enough to give fulfillment if he's to be
> successful at it.

Maybe…
But Ive noted that when students say “I’m bored” it often means
“I dont know what the (*&*^%^$#@ is going on”

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