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New to Python - block grouping (spaces)

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  New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Blake McBride <blake1024@gmail.com> - 2015-04-15 21:07 -0700
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-15 21:48 -0700
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 14:51 +1000
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-16 15:49 +1000
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-15 23:11 -0700
        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) William Ray Wing <wrw@mac.com> - 2015-04-16 09:00 -0400
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-16 11:51 +0100
        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-17 03:10 +1000
          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2015-04-16 12:49 -0500
          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-16 22:04 +0100
          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-04-17 11:37 +0200
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 22:14 +0300
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-04-16 07:46 +0000
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-04-16 10:47 +0200
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 19:34 +1000
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-04-16 12:09 +0200
        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-16 20:43 +1000
          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-04-16 13:07 +0200
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)yhoni alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-04-16 13:18 +0000
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)yhoni BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-16 14:44 +0100
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)yhoni Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-04-16 18:46 +0100
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)yhoni alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-04-16 18:03 +0000
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)yhoni Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 23:50 +1000
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)yhoni Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-04-16 16:09 +0200
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)yhoni alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-04-16 18:04 +0000
          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 23:41 +1000
          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-04-16 15:57 +0200
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-04-16 13:17 +0100
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-04-16 14:48 +0200
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Simmo <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 14:37 +0100
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Blake McBride <blake1024@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 07:52 -0700
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Blake McBride <blake1024@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 08:01 -0700
        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-04-16 18:08 +0000
          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) memilanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 11:28 -0700
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-04-16 15:05 +0000
        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) edmondo.giovannozzi@gmail.com - 2015-04-20 03:00 -0700
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) memilanuk <memilanuk@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 08:05 -0700
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-04-16 16:05 +0100
        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) CHIN Dihedral <dihedral88888@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 11:46 -0700
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 01:03 +1000
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-04-16 15:21 +0000
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-17 03:41 +1000
        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Ron Adam <ron3200@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 14:54 -0400
      EditorConfig for cross-editor consistent code style (was: New to Python - block grouping (spaces)) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-04-17 06:10 +1000
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 09:44 -0600
        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-04-17 16:28 +0000
          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-17 18:05 +0100
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 10:13 -0700
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-04-17 11:13 -0700
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-04-17 23:28 +0300
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-18 07:10 +1000
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2015-04-18 01:18 +0000
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 19:22 -0700
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-19 12:44 +0100
                  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-19 23:23 +1000
                    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-04-19 07:22 -0700
                  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 07:01 -0700
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-04-17 20:14 -0600
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-04-18 09:53 +0300
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-04-18 12:22 +1000
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2015-04-17 22:28 -0700
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-04-18 10:00 +0300
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-18 00:13 -0700
                  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-04-18 10:42 +0300
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 11:15 -0600
                  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-04-19 23:41 +0300
                    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 19:00 -0700
                    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-20 12:54 +1000
                      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 13:05 +1000
                        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-04-20 08:09 +0300
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-19 12:38 +0100
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-04-19 22:59 +1000
                  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-19 22:42 +0100
                    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Ron Adam <ron3200@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 19:28 -0400
                    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-04-20 09:59 +1000
                      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-20 01:30 +0100
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2015-04-19 09:18 -0400
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-19 23:22 +1000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-04-19 14:30 +0100
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 01:15 +1000
                  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 09:03 -0700
                    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2015-04-19 17:38 +0000
                    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-20 03:53 +1000
                      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Mel Wilson <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2015-04-19 18:25 +0000
                      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 19:08 -0700
                        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 12:24 +1000
                          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 19:43 -0700
                            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 13:03 +1000
                              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 20:28 -0700
                                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 13:44 +1000
                                  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 19:18 -0700
                            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-20 20:30 +1000
                              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 04:51 -0700
                                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-04-25 17:42 +0000
                              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-04-20 13:05 +0100
                              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-04-24 01:50 -0700
                        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-04-20 03:38 +0100
                        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com> - 2015-04-21 08:29 -0700
                          Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-21 10:49 -0700
                            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com> - 2015-04-21 14:35 -0700
                              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-21 20:11 -0700
                                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com> - 2015-04-21 21:05 -0700
                                  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-22 04:37 -0700
                                    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-04-22 13:05 +0100
                      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-04-20 20:38 +1200
                        Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-20 20:15 +1000
                    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2015-04-19 18:07 +0000
                      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-04-20 06:03 +1000
                      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-19 18:46 -0700
                      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-20 12:42 +1000
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-04-20 03:46 +1000
                  Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-04-19 13:36 -0700
            Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-24 22:06 -0700
              Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-04-25 10:27 +0300
                Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-25 09:52 -0700
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-04-24 08:31 +0100
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-04-24 08:03 -0600
    Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-04-16 10:59 -0700
      Re: New to Python - block grouping (spaces) Rob Gaddi <rgaddi@technologyhighland.invalid> - 2015-04-16 18:45 +0000

Page 6 of 6 — ← Prev page 1 2 3 4 5 [6]

#89280

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 3:05:57 AM UTC+5:30, llanitedave wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 10:49:34 AM UTC-7, Rustom Mody wrote:
> > If only Galileo had had you as lawyer...
> 
> Well, I'd asked Giordano Bruno for a positive recommendation.  For some
> inexplicable reason, he declined.

Maybe got too steamed-up pursuing high philosophy??

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#89283

On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-7, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 3:05:57 AM UTC+5:30, llanitedave wrote:
> > On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 10:49:34 AM UTC-7, Rustom Mody wrote:
> > > If only Galileo had had you as lawyer...
> > 
> > Well, I'd asked Giordano Bruno for a positive recommendation.  For some
> > inexplicable reason, he declined.
> 
> Maybe got too steamed-up pursuing high philosophy??

I think it had something to do with multiple inheritance.  Anyway, back in those days using indentation rather than braces was definitely considered heresy.

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#89291

On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 9:35:34 AM UTC+5:30, llanitedave wrote:
> On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-7, Rustom Mody wrote:
> > On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 3:05:57 AM UTC+5:30, llanitedave wrote:
> > > On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 10:49:34 AM UTC-7, Rustom Mody wrote:
> > > > If only Galileo had had you as lawyer...
> > > 
> > > Well, I'd asked Giordano Bruno for a positive recommendation.  For some
> > > inexplicable reason, he declined.
> > 
> > Maybe got too steamed-up pursuing high philosophy??
> 
> I think it had something to do with multiple inheritance.  Anyway, back in those days using indentation rather than braces was definitely considered heresy.

Along with braces, I hear the PEC¹ is preparing other instruments of pleasure like the rack for you and me for persisting in profanities in these divine precincts.
-----------------
¹Python Ecumenical Council

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#89292

On 22/04/2015 12:37, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 9:35:34 AM UTC+5:30, llanitedave wrote:
>> On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 8:12:07 PM UTC-7, Rustom Mody wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, April 22, 2015 at 3:05:57 AM UTC+5:30, llanitedave wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, April 21, 2015 at 10:49:34 AM UTC-7, Rustom Mody wrote:
>>>>> If only Galileo had had you as lawyer...
>>>>
>>>> Well, I'd asked Giordano Bruno for a positive recommendation.  For some
>>>> inexplicable reason, he declined.
>>>
>>> Maybe got too steamed-up pursuing high philosophy??
>>
>> I think it had something to do with multiple inheritance.  Anyway, back in those days using indentation rather than braces was definitely considered heresy.
>
> Along with braces, I hear the PEC¹ is preparing other instruments of pleasure like the rack for you and me for persisting in profanities in these divine precincts.
> -----------------
> ¹Python Ecumenical Council
>

If the PEC were going to use any weapon of torture it would be the Comfy 
Chair, unless somebody borrowed the time machine and destroyed it before 
it could be put to use.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#89207

Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Wheels have been round for thousands of years! Why can't we
> try something modern, like triangular wheels?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuleaux_triangle

http://blog.geomblog.org/2004/04/square-wheels.html

-- 
Greg

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#89214

On Monday 20 April 2015 18:38, Gregory Ewing wrote:

> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>> Wheels have been round for thousands of years! Why can't we
>> try something modern, like triangular wheels?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuleaux_triangle
> 
> http://blog.geomblog.org/2004/04/square-wheels.html

I *knew* some smart-arse would mention those :-)

There's always one... it's usually me, but there's always one... 


:-)


-- 
Steve

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#89166

On Sun, 19 Apr 2015 09:03:23 -0700, Rustom Mody wrote:

> Now if Thomson and Ritchie (yeah thems the guys) could do it in 1970,
> why cant we revamp this 45-year old archaic program=textfile system
> today?

Revamp?  What's to revamp?

C, C++, C#, Java, FORTRAN, Python, Perl, Ruby, POSIX shells, Javascript,
and a whole spectrum of arguably mainstream languages *still* work that
way.  Plenty of other languages that compile to Python or Java bytecode
work that way, even if the source code isn't Python or Java.  New
languages, like go, Rust, and Julia work that way.  What's to revamp?
My IDE is UNIX.

Java programmers who don't dare leave their beloved pointy clicky IDE
for a command line store their source files as plain text (and they
cringe when I sed sed against those source files, but I digress).  The
one project I ever did on a mainframe had a common text editor that
supported FORTRAN, JCL, and COBOL, and stored source code in files of
containing fixed length records of EBCDIC characters, IIRC.  The notion
of a "line of code," even in white-space-neutral languages, is deeply
rooted in punch cards, and isn't going away anytime soon.

IMO, until git's successor tracks content-_not_-delimited-by-linefeeds,
languages will continue to work that way.

Smalltalk, Forth, and LISP don't follow the program=textfile system
(although LISP can, and does sometimes); and UCSD Pascal didn't (at
least I think it didn't; the only tools I remember from those days all
ran inside UCSD Pascal and didn't expose much of the internals).

Slash rant.  Sorry.

Now that we've settled on UTF-8 as a successor to ASCII, the
program=textfile system has a long future in front of it.

Dan

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#89170

On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 4:07 AM, Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> wrote:
> IMO, until git's successor tracks content-_not_-delimited-by-linefeeds,
> languages will continue to work that way.

Linefeeds are nothing to git - it tracks the entire content of the
file. When you ask to see the diff between two versions of a file,
that's when lines start to have meaning - and if you configure in your
own difftool, you're welcome to compare files in arbitrary ways. It's
not for the sake of source control that code is in lines of text -
it's for the sake of humans.

ChrisA

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#89185

On Sunday, April 19, 2015 at 11:38:45 PM UTC+5:30, Dan Sommers wrote:


> What's to revamp? My IDE is UNIX.

Precisely my point: source-file = text-file is centerstage of Unix philosophy
If you want to start by questioning that, you must question not merely the language (python or whatever) but the matrix in which it is embedded

> 
> Java programmers who don't dare leave their beloved pointy clicky IDE
> for a command line store their source files as plain text (and they
> cringe when I sed sed against those source files, but I digress).  The
> one project I ever did on a mainframe had a common text editor that
> supported FORTRAN, JCL, and COBOL, and stored source code in files of
> containing fixed length records of EBCDIC characters, IIRC.

And in all likelihood different from the files (not really text) created
by Cobol

> The notion
> of a "line of code," even in white-space-neutral languages, is deeply
> rooted in punch cards, and isn't going away anytime soon.
> 
> IMO, until git's successor tracks content-_not_-delimited-by-linefeeds,
> languages will continue to work that way.

Yeah...
For what I (and I guess bartC) are talking about to succeed we would need
- more structured diff/merge in git (etc)
- corresponding sed/grep etc
- editor (plugins)
- etc

http://blog.languager.org/2013/09/poorest-computer-users-are-programmers.html

So yes its more work than making a new language

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#89189

On Mon, 20 Apr 2015 04:07 am, Dan Sommers wrote:

> Smalltalk, Forth, and LISP don't follow the program=textfile system
> (although LISP can, and does sometimes);

Correct, and the fact that they wrapped code and environment into a
completely opaque image was a major factor in their decline in popularity
for all three languages.

http://www.ianbicking.org/where-smalltalk-went-wrong.html
http://www.ianbicking.org/where-smalltalk-went-wrong-2.html


Source as text means that you can use any text based tool with little or no
effort. Using a non-text binary blob for source code means that your
options are much more limited. Look at source control software like git and
mercurial (hg): they automatically work on any language based on lines of
text code. There is no need for hg-for-java, hg-for-python, hg-for-ruby,
hg-for-javascript, hg-for-c, there is just hg. But if languages were
image-based like Smalltalk, hg would require special knowledge of the
internals of each compiler's image file format.


-- 
Steven

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#89165

On Sun, 19 Apr 2015 09:38 pm, BartC wrote:

> (I think much of the problem that most languages are intimately
> associated with their specific syntax, so that people can't see past it
> to what the code is actually saying. a=b, a:=b, b=>a, (setf a b),
> whatever the syntax is, who cares? We just want to do an assignment!)

You are making the mistake of thinking that we write code for the benefit of
the compiler or interpreter. We don't. If we did that, we'd all be using
machine code, programming in hex.

Source code exists to be read by human beings. If you want to communicate
with other human beings, you have to agree on a common language.

You might be interested in the Coffeescript model. You write Coffeescript
code, which is then translated (compiled? transpiled?) into pure
Javascript, which can then be run in the Javascript engine of your choice.
That's a language design model which is proven to work, unlike the idea of
having configurable syntax.

You'll notice that Coffeescript isn't a mere preprocessor or source code
transformation. The code is compiled into a different language, which may
not be reversible, and different compilers may generate different
(better/worse) code.

The Coffeescript:

    eat food for food in ['toast', 'cheese', 'wine']


compiles to Javascript:

    var food, j, len, ref;

    ref = ['toast', 'cheese', 'wine'];
    for (j = 0, len = ref.length; j < len; j++) {
      food = ref[j];
      eat(food);
    }




-- 
Steven

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#89172

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> writes:
> You might be interested in the Coffeescript model....>
> You'll notice that Coffeescript isn't a mere preprocessor or source code
> transformation. 

I like Purescript (purescript.org) better than Coffeescript, but either
way, I don't see Python as an attractive target for that approach.
People code in Javascript because they have to (browser apps), so if
they hate the JS language but have to use it anyway, it's reasonable to
wrap a translation layer around it.  JS is basically used as a high
level assembly language.

By contrast, most people who use Python use it because they like it.
Sure there are warts here and there, but for the most part, if someone
doesn't like Python, they can pick something else that does the same
job.

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#89386

On Friday, April 17, 2015 at 10:36:13 PM UTC+5:30, BartC wrote:
> (Actually *I* would quite like to know why languages don't have 
> switchable syntax anyway to allow for people's personal preferences.)

Some rambly ruminations on switchable (aka firstclass) syntax
http://blog.languager.org/2015/04/poverty-universality-structure-0.html

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#89387

Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com>:

> Some rambly ruminations on switchable (aka firstclass) syntax
> http://blog.languager.org/2015/04/poverty-universality-structure-0.html

I'll ruminate in response:

 * The awesomeness of lisp is in lambda calculus and not in macros.

 * Lisp syntax is actually not quite first-class:

   Guile:
     scheme@(guile-user)> let
     While compiling expression:
     ERROR: Syntax error:
     unknown location: let: bad let in form let

   Elisp:
     if
     Debugger entered--Lisp error: (void-variable if)
       eval(if nil)
       eval-last-sexp-1(t)
       eval-last-sexp(t)
       eval-print-last-sexp()
       call-interactively(eval-print-last-sexp nil nil)

 * Syntax is first-class in Kernel <URL:
   http://web.cs.wpi.edu/~jshutt/kernel.html>. Too bad Kernel chose a
   naming scheme (NPI) that makes it incompatible with scheme.

 * Beginning schemers are infatuated with defining new syntax (macros).
   What results is unreadable code.

 * The age-old lisp idea of application-specific languages is perfectly
   all right, though.

And most to the point:

 * Even with its syntax machinery, the lisp parser will reject Python
   and C source code.


Marko

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#89394

On Saturday, April 25, 2015 at 12:57:34 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Rustom Mody :
> > Some rambly ruminations on switchable (aka firstclass) syntax
> > http://blog.languager.org/2015/04/poverty-universality-structure-0.html
> 
> I'll ruminate in response:

Thanks for a connoisseur review

First time hearing of kernel.
Following some link from there came to this Hudak-news:
http://www.caringbridge.org/visit/hudak/journal/view/id/5538f5cea589b4216c04438a

[Hudak is a scheme-doyen - Yale-scheme: T dialect - and later Haskell]

Enough OT now that I should stop

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#89359

On 16/04/2015 15:52, Blake McBride wrote:
>  So, Python may be a cute language for you to use as an individual, but it is unwieldy in a real development environment.
>

First paragraph from 
http://www.talkpythontome.com/episodes/show/4/enterprise-python-and-large-scale-projects

<quote>
Mahmoud is lead developer of the Python Infrastructure team at 
eBay/PayPal and he has some amazing facts and studies to discuss about 
the truths and myths using Python for real projects. We discuss how eBay 
is using Python internally for many large-scale uses. Then we move on to 
discuss the 10 myths of enterprise Python, such as Python is not 
compiled, Python is weakly-typed, Python does not scale, and more. </quote>

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#89368

On 04/24/2015 01:31 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 16/04/2015 15:52, Blake McBride wrote:
>>  So, Python may be a cute language for you to use as an individual, but it is unwieldy in a real development environment.
>>
> 
> First paragraph from 
> http://www.talkpythontome.com/episodes/show/4/enterprise-python-and-large-scale-projects
> 
> <quote>
> Mahmoud is lead developer of the Python Infrastructure team at 
> eBay/PayPal and he has some amazing facts and studies to discuss about 
> the truths and myths using Python for real projects. We discuss how eBay 
> is using Python internally for many large-scale uses. Then we move on to 
> discuss the 10 myths of enterprise Python, such as Python is not 
> compiled, Python is weakly-typed, Python does not scale, and more. </quote>

Thanks for posting this.  Very interesting.  Unfortunately the original
poster is long gone and will never benefit from this. Too bad.

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#89043

On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 9:37:57 AM UTC+5:30, Blake McBride wrote:
> Greetings,
> 
> I am new to Python.  I am sorry for beating what is probably a dead horse but 
> I checked the net and couldn't find the answer to my question.

Kudos for making dead horses fly [33 posts in 13 hours and going strong]

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#89048

On Thu, 16 Apr 2015 10:59:44 -0700, Rustom Mody wrote:

> On Thursday, April 16, 2015 at 9:37:57 AM UTC+5:30, Blake McBride wrote:
>> Greetings,
>> 
>> I am new to Python.  I am sorry for beating what is probably a dead
>> horse but I checked the net and couldn't find the answer to my
>> question.
> 
> Kudos for making dead horses fly [33 posts in 13 hours and going strong]

Catapult and a dream, man.  Catapult and a dream.



-- 
Rob Gaddi, Highland Technology -- www.highlandtechnology.com
Email address domain is currently out of order.  See above to fix.

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