Groups > comp.lang.python > #4380 > unrolled thread

What other languages use the same data model as Python?

Started by	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
First post	2011-05-01 08:45 +0000
Last post	2011-05-04 07:28 -0700
Articles	20 on this page of 176 — 34 participants

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What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-01 08:45 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Alec Taylor <alec.taylor6@gmail.com> - 2011-05-01 19:00 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-05-01 02:04 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-01 15:10 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-02 10:37 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-05-02 07:45 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-02 13:12 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-02 10:33 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-01 21:42 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-02 00:28 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-02 08:43 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 13:39 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-03 14:49 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-03 15:20 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 22:10 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-03 12:33 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-03 16:52 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 21:47 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 08:00 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 02:56 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-04 10:51 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-05-04 03:58 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 06:12 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 14:44 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 00:20 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 18:09 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 09:18 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 18:03 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 20:55 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 11:31 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 21:21 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 19:28 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-08 10:39 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2011-05-20 20:56 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-08 02:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-07 23:10 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 22:48 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-09 12:52 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 11:38 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-09 21:18 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 21:53 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-09 14:29 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2011-05-09 15:41 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-05-09 10:15 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-09 13:38 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-09 16:23 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 19:41 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-10 19:35 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-11 10:47 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-10 15:18 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2011-05-20 21:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-09 16:28 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 07:23 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:22 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2011-05-04 15:46 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:58 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 21:40 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 21:31 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:50 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 12:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 22:37 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 20:58 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 16:49 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 07:12 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 21:08 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 19:12 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:30 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? TheSaint <nobody@nowhere.net.no> - 2011-05-07 20:18 +0800
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 12:49 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:31 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 09:40 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 10:49 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:47 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-05 07:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 12:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:42 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:04 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-08 06:09 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-07 16:24 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-08 10:54 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 09:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-08 11:16 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-07 23:16 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 16:32 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 13:49 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-10 03:13 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-10 14:05 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-10 16:09 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-10 15:16 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 01:27 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-10 16:40 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 01:44 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 13:51 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2011-05-10 03:47 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-09 23:15 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-04 14:52 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 19:46 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-04 21:32 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 22:06 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-05 08:41 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 10:44 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 17:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 21:39 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 07:44 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 21:48 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 13:59 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-05 08:58 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 13:19 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-05 14:39 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 11:56 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 06:13 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:33 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-04 20:19 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 16:35 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-04 21:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 20:11 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mark Hammond <mhammond@skippinet.com.au> - 2011-05-05 12:09 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 23:01 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 22:19 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 10:31 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 15:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 11:29 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-06 08:01 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-06 13:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:56 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:58 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 17:39 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 13:13 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 15:12 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-05-04 20:23 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 23:55 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:21 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 08:09 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 07:34 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 11:30 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 10:56 -0500
RE: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Andreas Tawn <andreas.tawn@ubisoft.com> - 2011-05-05 18:27 +0200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:09 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-06 07:56 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:11 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:00 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:52 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 12:03 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:12 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-07 12:03 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:48 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-05 22:24 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:18 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-05-05 10:28 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 12:19 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 18:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 19:06 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-06 14:25 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 09:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 16:22 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 19:51 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:51 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 21:20 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-04 22:10 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 00:19 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:25 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 07:44 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 09:40 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 09:40 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2011-05-04 13:15 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 10:19 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 15:48 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 05:58 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:24 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@xemacs.org> - 2011-05-03 15:50 +0200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 07:28 -0700

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#4725

From	Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-05 14:17 +0000
Message-ID	<ipubhb$e4q$2@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to	#4709

On 2011-05-05, Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> harrismh777 wrote:
>> 'C' does provide for pointers which are used by all 'C' 
>> programmers to firmly provide pass-by-reference in their coding
>
> Yes, but when they do that, they're building an abstraction
> of their own on top of the facilities provided by the C
> language.

I've pointed that out to him.  He's talking about what _he_ does in
his program.  We're talking about the C language definition and what
the compiler does.

> C itself has no notion of pass-by-reference.

Exactly.  C is pass by value.

> If it did, the programmer would be able to use it directly
> instead of having to insert & and * operators himself.

That's what I was trying to say, but probably not as clearly.  The "&"
operatore returnas a _value_ that the OP passes _by_value_ to a
function.  That function then uses the "*" operator to use that value
to access some data.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! DIDI ... is that a
                                  at               MARTIAN name, or, are we
                              gmail.com            in ISRAEL?

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#4733

From	Roy Smith <roy@panix.com>
Date	2011-05-05 10:31 -0400
Message-ID	<roy-92E664.10313305052011@news.panix.com>
In reply to	#4725

In article <ipubhb$e4q$2@reader1.panix.com>,
 Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> That's what I was trying to say, but probably not as clearly.  The "&"
> operatore returnas a _value_ that the OP passes _by_value_ to a
> function.  That function then uses the "*" operator to use that value
> to access some data.

Then, of course, there's references in C++.  I think it's fair to call 
the following "call by reference" in the sense we're talking about it 
here.

void f(int& i) {
   i = 5;
}
int i = 42;
f(i);

Of course, C++ lets you go off the deep end with abominations like 
references to pointers.  Come to think of it, C++ let's you go off the 
deep end in so many ways...

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#4742

From	Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu>
Date	2011-05-05 15:10 +0000
Message-ID	<92fsvjFkghU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#4733

On 2011-05-05, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> Of course, C++ lets you go off the deep end with abominations
> like references to pointers.  Come to think of it, C++ let's
> you go off the deep end in so many ways...

But you can do some really cool stuff in the deep end.

-- 
Neil Cerutti

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#4745

From	Roy Smith <roy@panix.com>
Date	2011-05-05 11:29 -0400
Message-ID	<roy-DE33B4.11294805052011@news.panix.com>
In reply to	#4742

In article <92fsvjFkghU1@mid.individual.net>,
 Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> wrote:

> On 2011-05-05, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> > Of course, C++ lets you go off the deep end with abominations
> > like references to pointers.  Come to think of it, C++ let's
> > you go off the deep end in so many ways...
> 
> But you can do some really cool stuff in the deep end.

"Hey, let's override operator,() and have some fun"

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#4779

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2011-05-06 08:01 +1000
Message-ID	<mailman.1206.1304632890.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4745

On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 1:29 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> "Hey, let's override operator,() and have some fun"

Destroying sanity, for fun and profit.

Chris Angelico

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#4827

From	Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu>
Date	2011-05-06 13:10 +0000
Message-ID	<92iaa2FdjoU4@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#4779

On 2011-05-05, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, May 6, 2011 at 1:29 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
>> "Hey, let's override operator,() and have some fun"
>
> Destroying sanity, for fun and profit.

I was thinking more along the lines of stuff like combining the
envelope pattern (an interface class containing a pointer to an
implementation) with template classes to create type-safe
polymorphic types with specializable, decoupled implementations.

A Python programmer just feels depressed that anyone could have a
need for such innovations, though. ;)

-- 
Neil Cerutti

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#4762

From	Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-05 16:57 +0000
Message-ID	<ipuktu$jjf$4@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to	#4742

On 2011-05-05, Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> wrote:
> On 2011-05-05, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
>> Of course, C++ lets you go off the deep end with abominations
>> like references to pointers.  Come to think of it, C++ let's
>> you go off the deep end in so many ways...
>
> But you can do some really cool stuff in the deep end.

Until you get pulled under and drowned by some flailing goof who
oughtn't be there.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Zippy's brain cells
                                  at               are straining to bridge
                              gmail.com            synapses ...

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#4761

From	Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-05 16:56 +0000
Message-ID	<ipukr1$jjf$3@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to	#4733

On 2011-05-05, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
> In article <ipubhb$e4q$2@reader1.panix.com>,
>  Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>> That's what I was trying to say, but probably not as clearly.  The "&"
>> operatore returnas a _value_ that the OP passes _by_value_ to a
>> function.  That function then uses the "*" operator to use that value
>> to access some data.
>
> Then, of course, there's references in C++.  I think it's fair to call 
> the following "call by reference" in the sense we're talking about it 
> here.
>
> void f(int& i) {
>    i = 5;
> }
> int i = 42;
> f(i);

If after the call to f(i) the caller sees that i == 5, then that's
call by reference.  But, we were talking about C.

> Of course, C++ lets you go off the deep end with abominations like 
> references to pointers.  Come to think of it, C++ let's you go off
> the deep end in so many ways...

:)

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Is this sexual
                                  at               intercourse yet??  Is it,
                              gmail.com            huh, is it??

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#4763

From	harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net>
Date	2011-05-05 11:58 -0500
Message-ID	<bHAwp.775$xo2.545@newsfe07.iad>
In reply to	#4725

Grant Edwards wrote:
> That's what I was trying to say, but probably not as clearly.  The "&"
> operatore returnas a_value_  that the OP passes_by_value_  to a
> function.  That function then uses the "*" operator to use that value
> to access some data.

I'm gonna try a D'Aprano-style bogus argument for a moment...

... saying that 'C' does not support pass-by-reference because you have 
to direct the compiler with the '&' and '*' characters is a little like 
saying that

      Python does not support decorations ! ...

...  because you have to direct the interpreter with some

@ bogus-decorator-syntax

      I want Python to support decorations automatically !

;-)

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#4769

From	Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu>
Date	2011-05-05 17:39 +0000
Message-ID	<92g5lnFkolU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#4763

On 2011-05-05, harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> wrote:
> ... saying that 'C' does not support pass-by-reference because
> you have to direct the compiler with the '&' and '*' characters
> is a little like saying that
>
>       Python does not support decorations ! ...
>
>
> ...  because you have to direct the interpreter with some
>
>
> @ bogus-decorator-syntax
>
>
>       I want Python to support decorations automatically !

You do have to declare decorators when defining them, but they
are called automatically when you call the decorated function,
with no special syntax required. C pointers don't automatically
dereference themselves.

-- 
Neil Cerutti

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#4773

From	Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
Date	2011-05-05 13:13 -0600
Message-ID	<mailman.1201.1304622848.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4763

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:58 AM, harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> wrote:
> Grant Edwards wrote:
>>
>> That's what I was trying to say, but probably not as clearly.  The "&"
>> operatore returnas a_value_  that the OP passes_by_value_  to a
>> function.  That function then uses the "*" operator to use that value
>> to access some data.
>
> I'm gonna try a D'Aprano-style bogus argument for a moment...
>
> ... saying that 'C' does not support pass-by-reference because you have to
> direct the compiler with the '&' and '*' characters is a little like saying
> that
>
>     Python does not support decorations ! ...
>
>
> ...  because you have to direct the interpreter with some
>
>
> @ bogus-decorator-syntax
>
>
>     I want Python to support decorations automatically !

It seems to me that manually referencing and dereferencing in C is
more akin to decorating functions like this:

def foo(x):
    do_stuff()

foo = decorate(foo)

On the other hand, the @ syntax is analogous to declaring reference
types in C++ (e.g. "int &" as opposed to "int *").  In both cases you
have to tell the interpreter / compiler that you want to use the
decoration / pass-by-reference feature, and the actual work is done
for you automatically.

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#4774

From	harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net>
Date	2011-05-05 15:12 -0500
Message-ID	<2xDwp.49594$sS4.40218@newsfe11.iad>
In reply to	#4773

Ian Kelly wrote:
> On the other hand, the @ syntax is analogous to declaring reference
> types in C++ (e.g. "int&" as opposed to "int *").  In both cases you
> have to tell the interpreter / compiler that you want to use the
> decoration / pass-by-reference feature, and the actual work is done
> for you automatically.

[ @Ian, Neil ]

:)    ... uh, it was worth a shot...

No, I see your point... with the slight small push-back that 
dereferencing a pointer with '*' can't really be called 'work' can it?

( I know, you'll say yes, because the 'compiler' didn't do it ! )

:))

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#4689

From	Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com>
Date	2011-05-04 20:23 -0700
Message-ID	<ph54s6t8me8gnpp9l2sc4j9kk6s0djtra5@4ax.com>
In reply to	#4680

harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> wrote:
>
>If I call a function in C, and pass-by-value, the data's 'value' is 
>placed on the stack in a stack-frame, as a 'value' parm... its a copy of 
>the actual data in memory.
>
>If I call a function in C, and pass-by-reference, the data's 'address' 
>is placed on the stack in a stack-frame, as a 'reference' parm... no 
>data is copied and the function must de-reference the pointer to get to 
>the data....   this is by definition.

This is not correct.  Consider an example.

  int BumpMe( int * a )
  {
      return *a+3;
  }

  int Other()
  {
      int x = 9;
      return BumpMe( &x );
  }

That is not an instance of passing an "int" by reference.  That is an
instance of passing an "int *" by value.  The fact that the parameter "a"
in BumpMe happens to be an address is completely irrelevent to the
definition of the parameter passing mechanism.

C has pass-by-value, exclusively.  End of story.

>There may be some language somewhere that does pass-by-reference which 
>is not implemented under the hood as pointers, but I can't think of 
>any... 

Fortran had genuine pass-by-reference.  In Fortran, you could write a
program like this:

       SUBROUTINE CONFUSION(IVALUE)
       INTEGER IVALUE
       IVALUE = IVALUE + 1
       END

       PROGRAM MAIN
       CONFUSION(4)
       END

That program would actually modify the value of the constant 4.  Such an
abomination is simply not possible in C.  Is that implemented
under-the-hood with pointers/addresses?  Of course it is.  However, that
does not change the parameter passing model as defined by the language
specification.
-- 
Tim Roberts, timr@probo.com
Providenza & Boekelheide, Inc.

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#4694

From	harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net>
Date	2011-05-04 23:55 -0500
Message-ID	<f5qwp.642$xo2.335@newsfe07.iad>
In reply to	#4689

Tim Roberts wrote:
> The fact that the parameter "a"
> in BumpMe happens to be an address is completely irrelevent to the
> definition of the parameter passing mechanism.
>
> C has pass-by-value, exclusively.  End of story.

Yeah, Tim, I know... but that's my entire point in a nut-shell... 
whether the language is pass-by-value or pass-by-reference has less to 
do with how it is 'defined' (its mechanism--- indirection and stack) and 
more to do with how it is routinely used with the standard features it 
provides--- in this case memory indirection--- as pointers.

Something new here, just for fun...

... I ran my hello.c program through the gcc compiler and intercepted 
its assembly source output. Some folks on the list may not know that the 
gcc compiler used to generate CPython (at least on *nix systems) does 
not generate object or machine code directly, but generates an 
intermediate assembly source in AT&T syntax.   The assembly code is 
interesting for the discussion, if you've never seen it. If you have, 
blow this off.

    Anyway, I built a small wrapper called 'say()' around the printf 
function, so that I could pass a string var to say(), and I then called 
it a couple of times in main(). The assembly source code is listed at 
the end of this post. The thing to notice here is two things:
    1) assembly code is actually being used to generate the machine 
code, not 'C' (and this is true for Python as well, compiled from 
sources) In other words, Python interpreter does not do anything more 
(nor less) than what can be done with assembler (nor machine code for 
that matter).  And,
    2) The strings I am 'passing' to the say() function don't get 
'passed' anywhere. (I know that most of you know this, bear with me) The 
strings are set in memory, and through memory indirection pointers (the 
parenthesis 'references') the string's memory addresses are placed on 
the stack. The called routine say() has full access to the original 
strings in memory (via their memory addresses) if necessary. The main 
point being that the say() function has a 'reference' to the original, 
and not a local copy of the 'value', and it can change it!  The string's 
addresses are .LC0 and .LC1/

Here is the assembly of my hello.c  saved as hello.s with:

    gcc -Wall -S -o hello.s hello.c


	.file	"hello.c"
	.section	.rodata
.LC0:
	.string	"\nhello, world!\n"
	.align 4
.LC1:
	.string	"...and again I say, hello there, world!\n\n"
	.text
.globl main
	.type	main, @function
main:
	pushl	%ebp
	movl	%esp, %ebp
	andl	$-16, %esp
	subl	$32, %esp
	movl	$0, 28(%esp)
	movl	$.LC0, (%esp)
	call	say
	movl	$.LC1, (%esp)
	call	say
	movl	28(%esp), %eax
	leave
	ret
	.size	main, .-main
	.section	.rodata
.LC2:
	.string	"%s"
	.text
.globl say
	.type	say, @function
say:
	pushl	%ebp
	movl	%esp, %ebp
	subl	$24, %esp
	movl	$.LC2, %eax
	movl	8(%ebp), %edx
	movl	%edx, 4(%esp)
	movl	%eax, (%esp)
	call	printf
	leave
	ret
	.size	say, .-say
	.ident	"GCC: (Ubuntu 4.4.1-4ubuntu9) 4.4.1"
	.section	.note.GNU-stack,"",@progbits

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#4728

From	Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-05 14:21 +0000
Message-ID	<ipubpb$e4q$3@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to	#4694

On 2011-05-05, harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> wrote:
> Tim Roberts wrote:
>> The fact that the parameter "a"
>> in BumpMe happens to be an address is completely irrelevent to the
>> definition of the parameter passing mechanism.
>>
>> C has pass-by-value, exclusively.  End of story.
>
> Yeah, Tim, I know... but that's my entire point in a nut-shell... 
> whether the language is pass-by-value or pass-by-reference has less to 
> do with how it is 'defined' (its mechanism--- indirection and stack)

No, whether the _language_ is pass by value or pass-by-reference has 
_entirely_ to do with it's definition.

> and more to do with how it is routinely used with the standard
> features it provides--- in this case memory indirection--- as
> pointers.

Now you're talking about how you can implement higher level constructs
using a language that doesn't directly implement such constructs.  You
might as well say that C is a linked-list language like Lisp since you
can write a linked list implementation in C.  If you said that you'd
be just as wrong as saying that C uses call-by-reference.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! I want another
                                  at               RE-WRITE on my CEASAR
                              gmail.com            SALAD!!

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#4714

From	Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com>
Date	2011-05-05 08:09 -0400
Message-ID	<ipu41g$kho$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to	#4689

Tim Roberts wrote:
> That is not an instance of passing an "int" by reference.  That is an
> instance of passing an "int *" by value.  The fact that the parameter "a"
> in BumpMe happens to be an address is completely irrelevent to the
> definition of the parameter passing mechanism.
> 
> C has pass-by-value, exclusively.  End of story.

Trouble with Turing-complete languages.  If it can be done, you can convince 
a Turing-complete language to do it -- somehow.

PL/I was the converse.  All parameters were passed by reference, so with

some_proc (rocks);

the code in some_proc would be working with the address of rocks.  If you 
wanted pass-by-value you wrote

some_proc ((rocks));

whereupon the compiler would pass in by reference an unnamed temporary 
variable whose value was the expression `(rocks)`.  I suspect the compiler I 
used avoided FORTRAN's troubles the same way.  Your function could corrupt 
*a* 4, but it wouldn't corrupt the *only* 4.

	Mel.

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#4701

From	Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net>
Date	2011-05-05 07:34 +0100
Message-ID	<10t998-cgn.ln1@svn.schaathun.net>
In reply to	#4680

On Wed, 04 May 2011 20:11:02 -0500, harrismh777
  <harrismh777@charter.net> wrote:
:  A reference is a pointer (an address).
: 
:  A value is memory (not an address).

Sure, and pointers (from a hardware or C perspective) are memory,
hence pointers are values.  


-- 
:-- Hans Georg

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#4722

From	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date	2011-05-05 14:10 +0000
Message-ID	<4dc2afd2$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to	#4680

On Wed, 04 May 2011 20:11:02 -0500, harrismh777 wrote:

> These definitions go all the way back before the 8080, or the 6502, 8 
> bit processors. Pass by reference has 'always' meant pass by using a 
> memory address (indirect addressing);  a reference has always been a 
> memory pointer.

That's not a definition. That's an implementation.

Some day, we'll be using quantum computers without memory addresses, or 
DNA computers, or some version of Babbage's Difference Engine (perhaps a 
trillion of them in the volume of a match-head, tiny nano computing 
devices... who knows?). Whatever it is, whether or not it has concepts of 
"memory address" or "memory pointer", it will still be possible to 
represent data indirectly via *some* mechanism.

> If I call a function in C, and pass-by-value, the data's 'value' is 
> placed on the stack in a stack-frame, as a 'value' parm... its a copy
> of the actual data in memory.

Correct.

> If I call a function in C, and pass-by-reference, the data's 'address' 

C doesn't do pass by reference. There is no way to declare a parameter to 
a function as a by-reference parameter. You can only simulate it by hand, 
by passing a pointer as data, pointing to what you *really* want as data, 
and dereferencing it yourself. But the pointer itself is passed by value: 
the address is copied onto the stack, just like any other piece of data 
would be.

(The Python equivalent is to pass a list containing the object. If you 
want call-by-reference behaviour without the convenience of language 
support for it, you can have it.)

Pascal, on the other hand, does do pass by reference. If you declare a 
"var" parameter, you then call the function with the variable you intend, 
and the compiler handles everything:

function foo(x: int, var y: int): int;
  begin
    foo := x + y;
    y := 0;
    x := 0;
  end;

a := 1;
b := 2;
c := foo(a, b);

After calling foo, the variable a remains 1, but the variable b is now 0. 
The compiler is smart enough to figure out what to do behind the scenes 
to make it all work.

We're not discussing what you, the coder, can do. Given any Turing-
complete language, you can (with sufficient cleverness and hard-work) do 
anything any other Turing-complete language can do. We're discussing what 
the compiler does, and for C, that is purely call by value.

Let me put it this way... old, unstructured BASIC has GOTOs and line 
numbers, correct? And Python doesn't, correct? But you could write a 
BASIC interpreter in Python, and call that interpreter from your Python 
code... therefore Python has line numbers and GOTOs, no?

No. Of course not. We're discussing *language features*, and GOTO is not 
a language feature of Python. Neither is call by reference a language 
feature of C, or Python either for that matter, but it is a language 
feature of VB and Pascal. 

The only difference between the two scenarios is that writing a BASIC 
interpreter is a tad harder than dereferencing a pointer, but that's just 
a matter of degree, not of kind.

-- 
Steven

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#4746

From	Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com>
Date	2011-05-05 11:30 -0400
Message-ID	<ipufqu$k7m$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to	#4722

Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> Some day, we'll be using quantum computers without memory addresses, [ ... 
] it will still be possible to
> represent data indirectly via *some* mechanism.

:)  Cool!  Pass-by-coincidence!  And Python 3 already has dibs on the 
'nonlocal' keyword!

	Mel.

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#4750

From	harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net>
Date	2011-05-05 10:56 -0500
Message-ID	<vMzwp.58035$0s5.9000@newsfe17.iad>
In reply to	#4746

Mel wrote:
>> represent data indirectly via*some*  mechanism.
> :)   Cool!  Pass-by-coincidence!  And Python 3 already has dibs on the
> 'nonlocal' keyword!


I was thinking pass-by-osmosis....   :)

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csiph-web

What other languages use the same data model as Python?

Contents

#4725

#4733

#4742

#4745

#4779

#4827

#4762

#4761

#4763

#4769

#4773

#4774

#4689

#4694

#4728

#4714

#4701

#4722

#4746

#4750