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Do you feel bad because of the Python docs?

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  Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-26 12:54 +0000
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 00:20 +1100
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-26 08:56 -0500
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 01:26 +1100
          Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-26 15:26 +0000
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-02-26 17:48 +0000
          Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-27 03:02 +0000
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Zero Piraeus <schesis@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 10:15 -0400
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 09:15 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-02-26 16:19 +0000
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 10:55 -0600
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-02-26 17:54 +0000
          Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-02-26 12:10 -0600
            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-02-26 18:41 +0000
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? nn <pruebauno@latinmail.com> - 2013-02-26 11:00 -0800
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? emile <emile@fenx.com> - 2013-02-26 16:36 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? "Adam W." <AWasilenko@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 08:38 -0800
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 13:52 -0500
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-26 20:48 -0500
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 19:13 -0800
          Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 15:25 -0800
            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 18:05 -0800
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-27 21:21 -0500
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 13:44 +1100
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 19:43 -0800
                  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? llanitedave <llanitedave@veawb.coop> - 2013-02-27 20:04 -0800
                  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 20:21 -0800
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 20:18 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 20:53 -0800
                  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 21:57 -0800
                    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 17:31 +1100
                    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 10:28 -0800
                      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-01 07:41 +1100
                      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 16:05 -0800
                        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Jake Angulo <jake.angulo@gmail.com> - 2013-03-04 10:47 +1100
            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-05 17:43 -0800
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-06 03:12 +0000
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-08 19:10 -0800
            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-05 17:50 -0800
            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-05 17:51 -0800
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-03-06 03:38 +0000
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-08 19:31 -0800
                  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-09 14:45 +1100
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rh <richard_hubbe11@lavabit.com> - 2013-03-06 11:48 -0800
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-03-06 18:50 -0500
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 16:47 -0800
                  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 17:06 -0800
                    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Kaynor <ckaynor@zindagigames.com> - 2013-03-06 17:28 -0800
                    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 17:31 -0800
                      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 18:28 -0800
                        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 18:57 -0800
                          Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 19:12 -0800
                            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 19:48 -0800
                      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-07 13:16 +1100
                    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? "Michael Ross" <gmx@ross.cx> - 2013-03-07 03:04 +0100
                  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-03-06 20:52 -0500
                    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 18:41 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-08 20:12 -0800
                  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-03-09 01:22 -0500
          Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-27 20:26 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-26 13:43 -0500
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-02-27 17:17 -0800
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-28 01:39 +0000
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-27 21:27 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-26 13:58 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rh <richard_hubbe11@lavabit.com> - 2013-02-26 12:18 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-02-26 21:26 +0000
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 17:17 -0500
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 17:22 -0800
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 17:22 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 17:15 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 12:31 +1100
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-26 21:00 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rh <richard_hubbe11@lavabit.com> - 2013-02-26 18:06 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-26 22:09 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-26 23:45 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-27 09:47 +0000
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> - 2013-02-27 13:17 +0000
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> - 2013-02-27 13:22 +0000
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 14:59 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-27 17:43 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-02-27 15:20 -0800
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-28 01:05 +0000
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-02-27 21:36 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? llanitedave <llanitedave@veawb.coop> - 2013-02-27 18:26 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Jason Friedman <jsf80238@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 21:59 -0700
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 16:21 +1100
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? << No! Tony the Tiger <tony@tiger.invalid> - 2013-03-03 16:28 -0600
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rh <richard_hubbe11@lavabit.com> - 2013-03-04 08:59 -0800

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#40598

On Tue, 05 Mar 2013 17:51:36 -0800, Bob Hanson wrote:


> I've tried twice to register with the bug tracker -- including just
> before sending this post. Both times I got something like this:
> 
>     Subject: Failed issue tracker submission From: Python tracker
>     <roundup-admin@psf.upfronthosting.co.za> Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013
>     00:56:44 +0000
> 
>     An unexpected error occurred during the processing of your message.
>     The tracker administrator is being notified.

Works for me.


Please try again, and if it still does not work, please email me off-list 
and I will help you either set up an account or report a tracker bug.



-- 
Steven

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#40924

On 06 Mar 2013 03:38:36 GMT, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> On Tue, 05 Mar 2013 17:51:36 -0800, Bob Hanson wrote:
> 
> > [trouble reporting bugs]
> 
> Works for me.
> 
> Please try again, and if it still does not work, please email me off-list 
> and I will help you either set up an account or report a tracker bug.

Thanks, Steven. I'll likely take you up on your offer to help me
off-list via email as I also wanted to talk with you about your
circular-means function in your stats package.

I do want to help with doc bugs. I'll probably have to get fairly
involved to be able to submit more major doc-bug patches -- as
others have said.

And, as I said to Mark, sorry for the late reply. 

(I was without internet access for a few days while the experts
at the phone company once again attempted to simulate minimal
competence culminating with their "DSL install expert" -- who had
never heard of Linux -- trying to puzzle out my desktop.)

Regards,
Bob Hanson

-- 
Sent by smoke signals from the top of Mount St. Helens. Please
excuse the sulfur fumes.

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#40926

On Sat, Mar 9, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> (I was without internet access for a few days while the experts
> at the phone company once again attempted to simulate minimal
> competence culminating with their "DSL install expert" -- who had
> never heard of Linux -- trying to puzzle out my desktop.)

I know exactly how that feels. Back in 2002 or thereabouts when we got
our current Optus cable connection installed, we were an all-OS/2 shop
(and we still have a good bit of OS/2, but there's some Windows and a
good bit of Linux around now too). Rather than go through the hassle
of having the guy try to figure out OS/2, we just rigged up a
temporary Windows box and let him have his fun. Soon as he'd left, we
unplugged the network cable from that machine and plugged it into our
router (and then did a MAC address clone in the router, as for some
reason the device was set to accept traffic only from the NIC the tech
had installed).

Funny, though, that Linux is still able to be obscure.

ChrisA

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#40660

On Tue, 05 Mar 2013 17:51:36 -0800
Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> 
> I've tried twice to register with the bug tracker -- including
> just before sending this post. Both times I got something like
> this:
> 
>     Subject: Failed issue tracker submission
>     From: Python tracker <roundup-admin@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
>     Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 00:56:44 +0000
> 
>     An unexpected error occurred during the processing
>     of your message. The tracker administrator is being
>     notified.
> 
> So, it's not all that easy to report bugs for me, anyway. I'd
> given up, prior, but reading this thread I thought I'd try one
> more time.
> 
> I had wanted to report doc bugs, too, as I used to do copy and
> line editing. I seem to be able to find typos and such rather
> easily, but reporting said bugs -- not so easy.

Can you post to comp.python.bugs? Or bugs@python.org?
Who wants to sign up for yet another website?

> 
> Something seems amiss, I'd say. It may be just me, but the point
> still stands.
> 
> --Bob Hanson

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#40671

On 3/6/2013 2:48 PM, rh wrote:

>> I've tried twice to register with the bug tracker -- including
>> just before sending this post. Both times I got something like
>> this:
>>
>>      Subject: Failed issue tracker submission
>>      From: Python tracker <roundup-admin@psf.upfronthosting.co.za>
>>      Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2013 00:56:44 +0000
>>
>>      An unexpected error occurred during the processing
>>      of your message. The tracker administrator is being
>>      notified.
>>
>> So, it's not all that easy to report bugs for me, anyway. I'd
>> given up, prior, but reading this thread I thought I'd try one
>> more time.
>>
>> I had wanted to report doc bugs, too, as I used to do copy and
>> line editing. I seem to be able to find typos and such rather
>> easily, but reporting said bugs -- not so easy.

 From http://docs.python.org/3/bugs.html

"Documentation bugs

If you find a bug in this documentation or would like to propose an 
improvement, please send an e-mail to docs@python.org describing the bug 
and where you found it. If you have a suggestion how to fix it, include 
that as well.

docs@python.org is a mailing list run by volunteers; your request will 
be noticed, even if it takes a while to be processed."

For anything more than trivial changes (typos, grammar errors), a 
tracker issue is better. But the above is better than nothing.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#40679

On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 5:50:35 PM UTC-6, Terry Reedy wrote:

> If you find a bug in this documentation or would like to propose an 
> improvement, please send an e-mail to docs@python.org describing the bug 
> and where you found it. If you have a suggestion how to fix it, include 
> that as well.

That's great Terry, but how will the next person find the link? I went to Python.org and i did not see it on the home page, nor the doc page... and i've been Python-ing for years now! 

If i can't find the link, how will a noob find it? How much longer are we going to "treat the symptoms" before we realize that we're dealing with a disease that can be cured?

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#40680

On Mar 7, 10:47 am, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's great Terry, but how will the next person find the link?

Why do you have such a low opinion of others that you think they're
unable to look up "Reporting Bugs" in the _documentation_?

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#40682

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

I actually just tried that, and the results weren't very good.

Using the doc's search feature, the "Reporting Bugs" (and the "About these
documents") page was significantly down the page (about 2/3 of the way) -
not the most obvious result in the pile. All the other searches I could
think of either didn't return either of those pages at all, or they were
also 1/2-2/3 of the way down the page.

The link is also on the main documentation page, but it is, again, near the
bottom, making it hidden from many users. Both of them show up just above
the bottom of the window with it maximized on my screen.

The first of the issues may be difficult to fix, but would likely be fairly
useful - that would generally be my first port of call. The second one is
more minor as most people will scroll down to see whats farther down, if
they go to the main page to find the links.

Chris


On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 5:06 PM, alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 7, 10:47 am, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > That's great Terry, but how will the next person find the link?
>
> Why do you have such a low opinion of others that you think they're
> unable to look up "Reporting Bugs" in the _documentation_?
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

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#40684

On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 7:06:56 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:
> Why do you have such a low opinion of others that you think they're
> unable to look up "Reporting Bugs" in the _documentation_?

I don't have a low opinion of anybody here. However the fact that this community needs an entry level path for bug/grievance reports is *glaringly* obvious. It would greatly benefit this community by:

1. Removing excess chatter from the bug tracker. 

We need to keep the tracker folks focused on *real* bugs that can be patched. Not engaged in endless discussions on the semantics of "what is a bug" and what "IS NOT a bug".

2. Removing barriers to reporting bugs/grievances. 

Remember, if reporting issues is too difficult, people will just give up. Then, the next person who gets slammed with the same problem will go through the same trouble only to produce no results AGAIN. Rinse and repeat!

3. Give us insight as to what aspects of the language/docs are troubling for folks. 

We need to know where the bottle necks are when learning the language, and since we are experienced, we lack the noob insight to even see the problems. I'll bet $100 you hated writing self as the first argument to each method. But now you've become so accustomed that you could so it in your sleep. That does not validate the asininity of doing such a thing! How can we fix entry-level  problems if we DON'T KNOW WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE!

4. Create a *real* sense of community.

By creating a place for people to voice complaints, we are letting them know that "Hey, you opinion is important to us, even if you are a total NOOB!". Even if their "pet problem" is never solved (maybe because it was a misunderstanding all along), they are more likely to get involved more deeply in Python community later on. Heck, maybe they will work their way up to py-dev and rub shoulders with GvR one day, "the skys the limit"!

I have already offered my assistance managing such a list. But i cannot start such a list without wide community support; I cannot start the list without GvR publicly supporting it; I cannot start the list without a prominent link on python.org; because if i do start a list without all these things, i will be wasting my time. 

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#40689

On Mar 7, 11:31 am, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't have a low opinion of anybody here. However the fact that
> this community needs an entry level path for bug/grievance reports
> is *glaringly* obvious.

Please explain how finding your vanity list would be easier than
reading the Python doc's table of contents and clicking on the entry
"Reporting Bugs".

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#40693

On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 8:28:42 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:
> On Mar 7, 11:31 am, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I don't have a low opinion of anybody here. However the fact that
> > this community needs an entry level path for bug/grievance reports
> > is *glaringly* obvious.
> 
> Please explain how finding your vanity list would be easier than
> reading the Python doc's table of contents and clicking on the entry
> "Reporting Bugs".

Firstly: It's not a "Rick's Vanity List" unless my name is on it. I don't expect to be named the "BDFL of PyWarts". Heck, i don't even expect to be "named" at all. GvR DOES NOT need to mention my name. All i am asking is that he show some support for the general *idea* of "lowering the bar for bug/grievance reporting". Or at least start by admitting we have a problem. 

Secondly: The "report bugs" feature of the doc is more concerned with "doc related" bugs. I want a holistic approach that will invite ALL Python related issues (docs, language, community, modules, 3rd party modules, etc...) to follow a linear path.

There may be better ways of achieving my goals (f.e. Terry proposed a great idea). My point is that we need to lower the bar and try to integrate a linear path that will allow all levels of Python programmers to participate. 

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#40695

On Mar 7, 12:57 pm, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> GvR DOES NOT need to mention my name. All i am asking is that he show
> some support for the general *idea* of "lowering the bar for bug/grievance
> reporting". Or at least start by admitting we have a problem.

Your obsession with Guido is tiring. Open source is not a cult of
personality. It's about doing what you can where you can when you can
to make things better. Insisting that he "endorse" your ideas is
ridiculous.

> Secondly: The "report bugs" feature of the doc is more concerned with
> "doc related" bugs.

It would really help your arguments if you actually spent some time
investigating the issues you're ranting against:

http://docs.python.org/3/bugs.html

Documentation bugs are a brief paragraph at the top of the page, the
rest of which addresses bugs with the language & standard library.

> I want a holistic approach that will invite ALL Python related issues (docs,
> language, community, modules, 3rd party modules, etc...) to follow a linear path.

Third party modules will never be handled by the Python bug tracker,
nor should they be lumped into the same "path"; they're the concern of
their developers who shouldn't be bound by your desire for a One True
Way. Community "bugs" should be addressed on the python list.

> My point is that we

You keep saying "we" when you mean other people apart from yourself.
If you have ideas for improvement, _then implement them_. The crate.io
guys didn't wait for community validation to address what they
perceived were issues with PyPI, they rolled up their sleeves and did
something about it.

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#40698

On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 9:12:37 PM UTC-6, alex23 wrote:

> Your obsession with Guido is tiring. 

And your false accusations that i am somehow "obsessed" with GvR have BEEN tiring for quite some time! I am neither passionate for or prejudice against the man. I simple ask that he live up to his job title.

> Open source is not a cult of
> personality. It's about doing what you can where you can when you can
> to make things better. Insisting that he "endorse" your ideas is
> ridiculous.

Of course insisting that he validate me *personally* would be ridiculous. But i am NOT suggesting that he validate ME, i am suggesting that he do his job. And his job is to oversee the language evolution and maintain a sense of community. Specifically: "leading by example". 

Q: "Why even have a python-list if GvR and all the "heavies" at py-dev never participate in the conversations?"

By NOT participating they are speaking louder than words.

> Third party modules will never be handled by the Python bug tracker,
> nor should they be lumped into the same "path"; they're the concern of
> their developers 

I agree, that was an unfortunate typo.

> If you have ideas for improvement, _then implement them_. The crate.io
> guys didn't wait for community validation to address what they
> perceived were issues with PyPI, they rolled up their sleeves and did
> something about it.

Great, and i commend the contribution. But is yet ANOTHER Python package list going to help anyone? How about 10 or 20 more Python package indexes? 

Community fragmentation and language forks due to core-dev stubbornness is unfortunate. I would much rather had them contribute to the existing package index instead of creating a new one. 

Congratulations Alex, your solution of pushing everyone away is working flawlessly -- just don't be surprised when you find yourself cold and alone.

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#40691

On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 12:31 PM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> We need to know where the bottle necks are when learning the language, and since we are experienced, we lack the noob insight to even see the problems. I'll bet $100 you hated writing self as the first argument to each method. But now you've become so accustomed that you could so it in your sleep.

Gambling debts are due within twenty-four hours. Please remit that
hundred dollars immediately; I had absolutely no problem with the
explicit 'self' argument.

Thanks, it's about time I earned some money arguing with you.

ChrisA

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#40685

On Thu, 07 Mar 2013 02:28:10 +0100, Chris Kaynor  
<ckaynor@zindagigames.com> wrote:

> I actually just tried that, and the results weren't very good.
>
> Using the doc's search feature, the "Reporting Bugs" (and the "About  
> these documents") page >was significantly down the page (about 2/3 of  
> the way) - not the most obvious result in the pile. All the >other  
> searches I could think of either didn't return either of those pages at  
> all, or they were also 1/2-2/3 >of the way down the page.
>
>

Using Google it took me about 3 seconds to find the page.

"python report doc bug".

Works with Bing or DuckDuckGo too. First hit on either engine.

The doc's search is ... fine if I search for e. g. 'subprocess.Popen',
but near-useless for general searches.


>
> The link is also on the main documentation page, but it is, again, near  
> the bottom, making it hidden from >many users. Both of them show up just  
> above the bottom of the window with it maximized on my screen.
>
>
>
> The first of the issues may be difficult to fix,

Is it?
You'd just have to have an additional search box labeld "search whole page  
with google/bing/whatever" (?)




> but would likely be fairly useful - that would generally be my first  
> port of call. The second one is more >minor as most people will scroll  
> down to see whats farther down, if they go to the main page to find the  
> >links.
>
>
>
> Chris
>
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 5:06 PM, alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On Mar 7, 10:47 am, Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohn...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> That's great Terry, but how will the next person find the link?
>>
>>
>>
>> Why do you have such a low opinion of others that you think they're
>>
>> unable to look up "Reporting Bugs" in the _documentation_?
>>
>> --
>>
>> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>>
>

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#40686

On 3/6/2013 7:47 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
> On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 5:50:35 PM UTC-6, Terry Reedy wrote:
>
>> If you find a bug in this documentation or would like to propose an
>> improvement, please send an e-mail to docs@python.org describing the bug
>> and where you found it. If you have a suggestion how to fix it, include
>> that as well.
>
> That's great Terry, but how will the next person find the link?

The same way I did. Go to http://docs.python.org/3/ (or /2/ and click on 
Reporting bugs, which takes one to the above and more.

 > I went to Python.org and i did not see it on the home page, nor the 
doc page...

Which doc page?

 > How much longer are we going to "treat the symptoms"

We would VERY MUCH like a system to make it easier for readers to report 
doc bugs and developers to fix them. No one yet has come up with both a 
reasonable idea and workable implementation. Here is an idea I just came 
up with.

*Someone* writes javascript that allows the following: Reader using the 
web version sees a mistake, selects some text with the mistake, right 
clicks, selects 'Suggest correction', gets a box or form with the 
selected text, page and location or context info, and a text entry box. 
Reader enters correction in text box and clicks OK. Message is emailed 
or posted to python.org.

*Someone* writes a python script to process reports by generating a 
proposed patch for human review.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#40690

On Wednesday, March 6, 2013 7:52:59 PM UTC-6, Terry Reedy wrote:

>  > How much longer are we going to "treat the symptoms"
> 
> We would VERY MUCH like a system to make it easier for readers to report 
> doc bugs and developers to fix them. No one yet has come up with both a 
> reasonable idea and workable implementation. Here is an idea I just came 
> up with.
> 
> *Someone* writes javascript that allows the following: Reader using the 
> web version sees a mistake, selects some text with the mistake, right 
> clicks, selects 'Suggest correction', gets a box or form with the 
> selected text, page and location or context info, and a text entry box. 
> Reader enters correction in text box and clicks OK. Message is emailed 
> or posted to python.org.

YES, YES, YES! This is even better than "PyWarts" because the user will not need to log onto a forum and then compose a post. In effect, the forum will come to him! I love it!

However, there is a dark-side on the opposite side of this mountain. Your idea solves "doc related" issues, but what about "language related" issues? I still love your idea, however, i am looking for a holistic approach to solving the issue. 

> *Someone* writes a python script to process reports by generating a 
> proposed patch for human review.

Also, i would like to add. That all user submitted "reports" should be posted in a searchable database somewhere that is public; so we can keep track of which parts of the docs (or language) are creating the highest volume of complaints\bugs. 

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#40928

On Wed, 06 Mar 2013 18:50:35 -0500, Terry Reedy wrote:

> On 3/6/2013 2:48 PM, rh wrote:
> 
> > [Bob Hanson wrote:]
> >
> > > I've tried twice to register with the bug tracker -- including
> > > just before sending this post. [...]
> > >
> > > [other details and errors snipped] 
> > >
> > > I had wanted to report doc bugs, too, as I used to do copy and
> > > line editing. I seem to be able to find typos and such rather
> > > easily, but reporting said bugs -- not so easy.
>    
>  From http://docs.python.org/3/bugs.html
> 
> "Documentation bugs
> 
> If you find a bug in this documentation or would like to propose an 
> improvement, please send an e-mail to docs@python.org describing the bug 
> and where you found it. If you have a suggestion how to fix it, include 
> that as well.
> 
> docs@python.org is a mailing list run by volunteers; your request will 
> be noticed, even if it takes a while to be processed."
> 
> For anything more than trivial changes (typos, grammar errors), a 
> tracker issue is better. But the above is better than nothing.

Thanks, Terry. I've been wanting to contribute for years, but a
variety of issues (details of which are not relevant here) makes
my helping improve the documentation probably the best fit for my
abilities and situation.

I do notice trivial changes, but I also feel some of the
documentation could benefit from a much more thorough general
editing to improve both ease of reading and general clarity. 

Contributing in this way sounds like I'll want to get more
involved and probably do the contributor-signing thing and such
-- or whatever steps I need to follow.

And again, sorry for the late reply -- I was without internet for
a few days while I changed ISPs.

Regards,
Bob Hanson

-- 
Don't take yourself serious -- or no one else will.

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#40934

On 3/8/2013 11:12 PM, Bob Hanson wrote:

> I do notice trivial changes,

I am currently set up again to do doc changes, so if you already have 
some non-controversial changes to the *current* docs, the online html 
versions, go ahead and email them to me.

> but I also feel some of the
> documentation could benefit from a much more thorough general
> editing to improve both ease of reading and general clarity.

Big edits will need discussion on the tracker and will likely be opposed 
by someone.

> Contributing in this way sounds like I'll want to get more
> involved and probably do the contributor-signing thing and such
> -- or whatever steps I need to follow.

Please do the agreement thing now. We just added the e-form a week ago 
and with that are getting more serious about asking for the agreements.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#40091

In article <54967758-e84c-4b9c-a09c-10fbdbec230f@googlegroups.com>,
 Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:

> do you /really/ expect that people have the 
> time to open an issue on the bug tracker? 

There's a certain amount of socialism involved in OSS.  "From each 
according to his ability," really is the way it works.  If your ability 
is that you've discovered that the documentation isn't as good as it 
should be, you owe the project a few minutes of your time to create a 
ticket describing the problem (and, even better, suggesting how it could 
be improved).

Looking at my bugs.python.org activity, I see I've opened 30 bugs over 
the past 9-1/2 years.  Of those, 16 were explicitly against the docs, 
and a few more were of the "I'm not sure if this is a docs bug or a code 
bug, but it doesn't do what it says it does" variety.

> Do you really think that everyone 
> who uses python even knows about the bug tracker?

Everybody?  No.  But, anybody who uses OSS should understand that any 
non-trivial project has a bug tracker.  And even if they don't know 
where it is, they should be capable of typing "python bug tracker" into 
a search engine and finding it.

> Do you really think that people will believe that their opinion is 
> worthy of placing on the bug tracker?

In my experience, it's far more likely for people to over-estimate the 
important of their own opinion than to under-estimate it :-)

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