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Hello World

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  Hello World Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-12-20 23:57 +1100
    Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-12-21 00:11 +1100
    Re: Hello World Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-12-20 16:13 +0000
    Re: Hello World Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-12-20 08:50 -0800
    Re: Hello World Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2014-12-20 20:39 +0200
    Re: Hello World alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-12-20 22:18 +0000
    Re: Hello World CM <cmpython@gmail.com> - 2014-12-20 21:14 -0800
      Re: Hello World Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-12-21 16:26 +1100
      Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-12-21 16:31 +1100
      Re: Hello World Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-12-21 01:31 -0500
        Re: Hello World wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-12-21 00:07 -0800
      Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-12-21 17:44 +1100
        Re: Hello World CM <cmpython@gmail.com> - 2014-12-20 23:44 -0800
          Re: Hello World CM <cmpython@gmail.com> - 2014-12-20 23:45 -0800
            Re: Hello World Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-12-21 10:26 +0200
          Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-12-21 18:46 +1100
        Re: Hello World albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-01-08 12:43 +0000
          Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-01-08 23:53 +1100
            Re: Hello World albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-01-08 13:37 +0000
            Re: Hello World Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-01-08 16:06 +0200
              Re: Hello World alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-01-08 14:21 +0000
                Re: Hello World Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-01-08 16:31 +0200
                  Re: Hello World alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-01-08 15:14 +0000
            Re: Hello World Michael Ströder <michael@stroeder.com> - 2015-01-08 15:11 +0100
            Re: Hello World albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-01-17 14:51 +0000
              Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-01-18 01:57 +1100
                Re: Hello World cl@isbd.net - 2015-01-17 15:18 +0000
              Re: Hello World Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-01-17 09:29 -0700
                Re: Hello World cl@isbd.net - 2015-01-17 16:47 +0000
                  Re: Hello World albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-01-17 18:06 +0000
                    Re: Hello World Michael Ströder <michael@stroeder.com> - 2015-01-17 19:47 +0100
                      Re: Hello World Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-01-17 19:09 -0700
                    Re: Hello World Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-01-18 13:37 +1100
                      Re: Hello World Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2015-01-17 22:18 -0500
                        Re: Hello World Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-01-18 14:45 +1100
                          Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-01-18 18:45 +1100
                          Re: Hello World Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2015-01-18 07:26 -0500
                        Re: Hello World Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2015-01-17 21:50 -0600
                        Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-01-18 18:44 +1100
                  Re: Hello World Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-01-17 18:31 +0000
                    Re: Hello World Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-01-18 10:46 +1100
                      Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-01-18 11:04 +1100
                      Re: Hello World Jason Friedman <jsf80238@gmail.com> - 2015-01-17 18:19 -0700
                      Re: Hello World Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-01-17 19:13 -0700
                        Re: Hello World Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-01-18 12:03 +0200
                          Re: Hello World Michael Ströder <michael@stroeder.com> - 2015-01-18 14:34 +0100
                            Re: Hello World Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-01-18 18:03 +0200
                              Re: Hello World Michael Ströder <michael@stroeder.com> - 2015-01-18 19:39 +0100
                          Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-01-18 21:10 +1100
                            Re: Hello World Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-01-18 22:50 +0200
                        Re: Hello World Michael Ströder <michael@stroeder.com> - 2015-01-18 14:32 +0100
                      Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-01-18 21:00 +1100
                        Re: Hello World Michael Ströder <michael@stroeder.com> - 2015-01-18 14:35 +0100
                          Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-01-19 00:57 +1100
                            Re: Hello World Michael Ströder <michael@stroeder.com> - 2015-01-18 16:48 +0100
                              Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-01-19 04:08 +1100
                      Re: Hello World Michael Ströder <michael@stroeder.com> - 2015-01-18 14:30 +0100
          Re: Hello World Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-01-08 19:02 +0200
            Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-01-09 04:11 +1100
              Re: Hello World albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2015-01-17 15:10 +0000
            Re: Hello World Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-01-08 10:53 -0700
              Re: Hello World Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-01-08 18:57 +0000
      Re: Hello World Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2015-01-17 16:06 -0800
    Re: Hello World Tony the Tiger <tony@tiger.invalid> - 2014-12-21 19:22 +0000
      Re: Hello World Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-12-21 22:02 +0200
      Re: Hello World Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-12-22 09:51 +1100
        Re: Hello World Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-12-21 18:50 -0500
          Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-12-22 11:10 +1100
            Re: Hello World Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-12-21 19:12 -0500
              Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-12-22 11:36 +1100
            Re: Hello World mm0fmf <none@mailinator.com> - 2014-12-22 00:20 +0000
              Re: Hello World Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-12-21 18:47 -0600
              Re: Hello World Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-12-22 02:56 +0000
            Re: Hello World Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-12-22 10:52 +0200
              Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-12-22 20:01 +1100
          Re: Hello World Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-12-22 16:23 +0000
            Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-12-23 04:25 +1100
            Re: Hello World Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-12-22 18:51 +0000
            Re: Hello World MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-12-22 19:05 +0000
            Re: Hello World Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-12-22 13:16 -0600
              Re: Hello World Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-12-22 19:55 -0500
                Re: Hello World sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2014-12-22 17:03 -0800
                  Re: Hello World MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-12-23 01:37 +0000
                  Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-12-23 12:39 +1100
                  Re: Hello World Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-12-23 02:36 +0000
                  Re: Hello World Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-12-23 12:24 -0500
                Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-12-23 12:03 +1100
            Encryption - was Hello World Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2014-12-22 14:57 -0500
            Re: Encryption - was Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-12-23 09:29 +1100
            Re: Encryption - was Hello World Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-12-22 18:22 -0500
        Re: Hello World Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-12-21 18:37 -0800
        Re: Hello World Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2014-12-22 08:21 +0200
          Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-12-22 17:33 +1100
            Re: Hello World Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2014-12-22 09:46 +0200
              Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-12-22 18:56 +1100
          Re: Hello World Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-12-22 20:18 +1100
            Re: Hello World Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-12-22 11:34 +0200
              Re: Hello World Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-12-22 19:38 -0800
            Re: Hello World Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-12-22 08:15 -0500
              Re: Hello World Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-12-23 00:23 +1100
                OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-12-23 13:09 +1100
                  Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World] Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-12-23 16:20 +0000
                    Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-12-23 08:41 -0800
                      Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-12-24 12:51 +1100
                    Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-12-24 14:18 +1100
                    Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World] alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-12-24 11:50 +0000
                      Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-12-26 09:34 +1000
                    Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2014-12-26 09:27 +1000
                      Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-12-26 15:13 +1100
                        Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World] alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-12-26 10:03 +0000
              Re: Hello World Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-12-22 15:26 +0200
                Re: Hello World Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-12-22 08:41 -0500
          Re: Hello World Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-12-22 08:13 -0500
            Re: Hello World Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-12-23 02:22 +1100
              Re: Hello World Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-12-22 17:36 +0200
                Re: Hello World Chris Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2014-12-22 17:03 +0100
              Re: Hello World Skip Montanaro <skip.montanaro@gmail.com> - 2014-12-22 09:39 -0600
                Re: Hello World Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-12-23 03:54 +1100
              Re: Hello World Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-12-22 18:48 +0000
          Re: Hello World Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-12-22 16:26 +0000
      Re: Hello World Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-12-22 16:18 +0000
        Re: Hello World alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-12-22 19:05 +0000

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#82826 — OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World]

Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 12:15 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
>> If I really didn't trust something, I'd go to AWS and spin up one of
>> their free-tier micro instances and run it there :-)
> 
> How do you know it won't create console output that stroboscopically
> infects you with a virus through your eyes? Because that's *totally*
> what would be done in the town of Eureka.

Anybody in IT who hasn't read Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" needs to hand
in their Geek Card immediately.

"Snow Crash" is nearly 20 years old now but still as much of a ripping yarn
today as it was the year it was written. Under-achiever, freelance hacker
and part-time pizza delivery boy for the Mafia, Hiro Protagonist, discovers
that somebody has written a virus that hacks into computer programmers'
brains via their optic nerve.

This book has drama, adventure, humour, vast amounts of exposition that
might even be almost true, a murderous Inuit who is his own sovereign state
(a *nuclear armed* sovereign state at that), Rat Things, Sumerian myths,
Reverend Wayne's Pearly Gates franchise, one of the most spunky teenage
protagonists I've ever read, and pirates listening to Reason.



-- 
Steven

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#82842 — Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World]

On 2014-12-23, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 12:15 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
>>> If I really didn't trust something, I'd go to AWS and spin up one of
>>> their free-tier micro instances and run it there :-)
>> 
>> How do you know it won't create console output that stroboscopically
>> infects you with a virus through your eyes? Because that's *totally*
>> what would be done in the town of Eureka.
>
> Anybody in IT who hasn't read Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" needs to hand
> in their Geek Card immediately.

I tried, but I got so tired of the author doing stuff like pointing
out that there were 65536 of something or other (and that it's a power
of TWO, kids!) that I gave up.  The annoying thing was that there was
no real technical reason why the quantity _needed_ to be a power of
two.  Too many of the technical details that you got constantly beat
over the head with were 

  1) not even remotely relevent to the story

  2) mostly an effort by the author to demonstrate that he had a
     junior-high level understanding of a 68K based Macintosh and knew
     lots of cool grown up tech-sounding words -- and even if had only
     a vague idea of what they meant, he could still impress the other
     13-year olds.

  3) just plain wrong

And even _with_ all the technical jibber-jabber, none of it explained
or justified the whole "writing a virus to infect the brain through
the optic nerve" thing which might just have well been magick and
witches.
  
-- 
Grant

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#82843 — Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World]

On Tuesday, December 23, 2014 9:50:22 PM UTC+5:30, Grant Edwards wrote:
> 
> And even _with_ all the technical jibber-jabber, none of it explained
> or justified the whole "writing a virus to infect the brain through
> the optic nerve" thing which might just have well been magick and
> witches.

You find that far-fetched?
I would have thought it commoner than common-cold -- basis for the trillion dollar
industry called advertising

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#82870 — Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World]

Rustom Mody wrote:

> On Tuesday, December 23, 2014 9:50:22 PM UTC+5:30, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> 
>> And even _with_ all the technical jibber-jabber, none of it explained
>> or justified the whole "writing a virus to infect the brain through
>> the optic nerve" thing which might just have well been magick and
>> witches.
> 
> You find that far-fetched?
> I would have thought it commoner than common-cold -- basis for the
> trillion dollar industry called advertising


[controversial and perhaps annoying]

To say nothing of religion, both the supernatural/mystical kind and the "my
editor/programming language/brand of car/gaming console/etc is better than
yours" kind... 



-- 
Steven

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#82873 — Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World]

Grant Edwards wrote:

> On 2014-12-23, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
> wrote:
>> Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 12:15 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
>>>> If I really didn't trust something, I'd go to AWS and spin up one of
>>>> their free-tier micro instances and run it there :-)
>>> 
>>> How do you know it won't create console output that stroboscopically
>>> infects you with a virus through your eyes? Because that's *totally*
>>> what would be done in the town of Eureka.
>>
>> Anybody in IT who hasn't read Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" needs to
>> hand in their Geek Card immediately.
> 
> I tried, but I got so tired of the author doing stuff like pointing
> out that there were 65536 of something or other (and that it's a power
> of TWO, kids!) that I gave up.  The annoying thing was that there was
> no real technical reason why the quantity _needed_ to be a power of
> two.


Neal Stephenson's technical chops, and his limits, are well established. He
is a writer first and foremost and it is quite obvious that he's often
showing off his technical knowledge even when it's not strictly relevant.

Remember to that Snow Crash became a cult classic among hackers, but it was
written for a science fiction and cyberpunk audience. To them, 2^16 is a
strange and exotic concept: 10000, or 50000, or 100000 would be a round
number, not 65536.


> And even _with_ all the technical jibber-jabber, none of it explained
> or justified the whole "writing a virus to infect the brain through
> the optic nerve" thing which might just have well been magick and
> witches.  

Any sufficiently advanced technology.

I disagree. I think he did a good job of making such a thing seem plausible
without getting bogged down with inventing a detailed mechanism which could
only ever be wrong.

But then I was easily convinced, because I already knew of various related
facts and concepts which probably primed me to accept the concept of the
Snow Crash virus:

- Zombie ant fungus and various other parasites which manipulate the 
  brains of organisms, including human beings (Toxoplasmosis, syphillis
  and others).

- The optic nerve is technically not a nerve, but part of the brain, 
  and there are deep and subtle connections between it and the rest 
  of the brain, e.g. blind-sight.

- The theory of memes, or perhaps I should say the meme of memes, 
  since memetics has never been quite vigorous enough to count 
  as an actual theory.

- Super-stimuli.

- The human brain considered as an information processor.

- Julian Jaynes' book "The Origin Of Consciousness In The Breakdown
  Of The Bicameral Mind", a hypothesis so wonderful that it needs to
  be true (alas, it's probably rubbish).


Personally, I don't believe that in this day and age of Java programming,
anyone could be programmed by looking at a black and white animated bitmap,
but back in the 1990s it was probably a bit more plausible that hackers
would spend their time learning to read machine code. But there's always
the chance that somebody will find a way a stimulus that crashes the human
brain and lets them run the arbitrary code of their choice...



-- 
Steven

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#82885 — Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World]

On Tue, 23 Dec 2014 16:20:10 +0000, Grant Edwards wrote:

> On 2014-12-23, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
> wrote:
>> Chris Angelico wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 12:15 AM, Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> wrote:
>>>> If I really didn't trust something, I'd go to AWS and spin up one of
>>>> their free-tier micro instances and run it there :-)
>>> 
>>> How do you know it won't create console output that stroboscopically
>>> infects you with a virus through your eyes? Because that's *totally*
>>> what would be done in the town of Eureka.
>>
>> Anybody in IT who hasn't read Neal Stephenson's "Snow Crash" needs to
>> hand in their Geek Card immediately.
> 
> I tried, but I got so tired of the author doing stuff like pointing out
> that there were 65536 of something or other (and that it's a power of
> TWO, kids!) that I gave up.  The annoying thing was that there was no
> real technical reason why the quantity _needed_ to be a power of two. 
> Too many of the technical details that you got constantly beat over the
> head with were
> 
>   1) not even remotely relevent to the story
> 
>   2) mostly an effort by the author to demonstrate that he had a
>      junior-high level understanding of a 68K based Macintosh and knew
>      lots of cool grown up tech-sounding words -- and even if had only a
>      vague idea of what they meant, he could still impress the other
>      13-year olds.
> 
>   3) just plain wrong
> 
> And even _with_ all the technical jibber-jabber, none of it explained or
> justified the whole "writing a virus to infect the brain through the
> optic nerve" thing which might just have well been magick and witches.

I am reading it now thanks to this list & I currently agree that it is 
quite annoying

what feels like 3 or 4 chapters in & it is still trying to set the scene, 
an exercise in stylish writing with very little content so far.
even early scifi written for magazines on a per word basis were not this 
excessive (because if they were they would probably have been rejected or 
seriously edited).

Hopefully it will finally settle down & amend my current impression.



-- 
Guns don't kill people.  It's those damn bullets.  Guns just make them go
really really fast.
        -- Jake Johanson

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#82934 — Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World]

On 24/12/2014 9:50 PM, alister wrote:
> what feels like 3 or 4 chapters in & it is still trying to set the scene,
> an exercise in stylish writing with very little content so far.
> even early scifi written for magazines on a per word basis were not this
> excessive (because if they were they would probably have been rejected or
> seriously edited).

My personal theory is that Stephenson polishes and polishes the first 
few chapters until the whole creative process really engages - the first 
chapter is especially overwritten - and then tears through the novel in 
an increasingly unrefined way, until it arrives at its anticlimactic 
conclusion. He was notorious for a while for not providing satisfying 
endings to his books.

> Hopefully it will finally settle down & amend my current impression.

SNOW CRASH doesn't, I'm afraid, but Stephenson himself does as a writer. 
CRYPTONOMICON is a great geek read. ANATHEM is a fantastic piece of SF 
(possibly my favourite of his) THE SYSTEM OF THE WORLD is an amazing 
accomplishment and really shows that modern infotech didn't spring out 
of nothing like Venus from the foam.

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#82933 — Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World]

On 24/12/2014 2:20 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
> And even _with_ all the technical jibber-jabber, none of it explained
> or justified the whole "writing a virus to infect the brain through
> the optic nerve" thing which might just have well been magick and
> witches.

While I love SNOW CRASH, I do think it'd fundamentally flawed. The worst 
for me is that in a fictional universe with a VR system capable of 
displaying anything, the crux of the book revolves around a couple of 
characters having a long, long discussion about Sumerian history.

	A: "<blah blah blah blah blah Sumeria>"
	B: "And then what?"
	A: "<blah blah blah blah....>"
	B: etc

It's been at least a decade since I read it, but wasn't that also the 
explanation for how the virus worked?

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#82946 — Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World]

alex23 wrote:

> On 24/12/2014 2:20 AM, Grant Edwards wrote:
>> And even _with_ all the technical jibber-jabber, none of it explained
>> or justified the whole "writing a virus to infect the brain through
>> the optic nerve" thing which might just have well been magick and
>> witches.
> 
> While I love SNOW CRASH, I do think it'd fundamentally flawed. The worst
> for me is that in a fictional universe with a VR system capable of
> displaying anything, the crux of the book revolves around a couple of
> characters having a long, long discussion about Sumerian history.
> 
> A: "<blah blah blah blah blah Sumeria>"
> B: "And then what?"
> A: "<blah blah blah blah....>"
> B: etc


Keep in mind the limitations of the media. The novel is written word, so
there are only a limited number of ways of getting background information
to the reader. In this case, having one character (an AI) tell another
character (the protagonist) what he needs to know is arguably the
least-worst way.

The many pages of info-dumping is one of the lesser parts of the book. I
wonder what Stephenson's motive for writing it as dialog was, because in
other parts of the book he demonstrated great skill in imparting background
information to the reader without dry info-dumps (e.g. the Rat Things).

At least it is information that is *not* common knowledge in-universe. Old
pulp SF used to be filled with cheesy dialog like this:

   Attractive but stupid female: "Professor, I know you've told me 
       before, but how does the microwave oven work again?"
   Avuncular male authority figure: "Well my dear, as you know all
       foods contain water molecules. The oven uses radio-frequency
       subatomic radiation, know as 'microwaves', specially tuned to
       excite the oxygen-to-hydrogen molecular bonds in water 
       molecules. As you know, heat is just the action of excited 
       molecular bonds, so this has the effect of beaming heat 
       energy deep into the food so that it cooks from the inside
       out without burning.

and then the microwave oven is not used for anything more exciting than
making a cup of tea for the rest of the book.

In the case of Snow Crash, I think we need to keep in mind when it was
written. In 1990, the idea that you might *carry on a conversation* with
your computer still seemed (1) plausible to SF readers, who expected strong
AI and robots with Asimov's Three Laws to be just around the corner, and
(2) the widespread public Internet, or even use of computers, was still
pretty rare. The idea that you could only get information out of a computer
by typing, or pointing, would have struck readers in 1994 as terribly
unrealistic. The other interface, the holographic interface so beloved of
recent SF television and movies where you push screens around in space,
hadn't been invented yet, and isn't terribly good for getting information
to the reader since they can't actually see what is on the screen.


> It's been at least a decade since I read it, but wasn't that also the
> explanation for how the virus worked?

Deep in the brain, well underneath the level of modern languages and
consciousness, there is a deeper "machine language" of the brain. If you
can write instructions in this machine language, you can control people's
brains. Back in the distant past, the Sumerians learned how to do this via
spoken language, but few people speak Sumerian any more, hence there are
two versions of Snow Crash: one is a drug plus virus. The drug is to
encourage people to inject themselves, which then allows the virus to get
into their brain. The other is an animated bitmap, which contains "machine
code" for the human brain, and is injected via the optic nerve (i.e. when a
hacker sees it).






-- 
Steven

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#82954 — Re: OFF TOPIC Snow Crash [was Re: Hello World]

On Fri, 26 Dec 2014 15:13:25 +1100, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

 
> Deep in the brain, well underneath the level of modern languages and
> consciousness, there is a deeper "machine language" of the brain. If you
> can write instructions in this machine language, you can control
> people's brains. Back in the distant past, the Sumerians learned how to
> do this via spoken language, but few people speak Sumerian any more,
> hence there are two versions of Snow Crash: one is a drug plus virus.
> The drug is to encourage people to inject themselves, which then allows
> the virus to get into their brain. The other is an animated bitmap,
> which contains "machine code" for the human brain, and is injected via
> the optic nerve (i.e. when a hacker sees it).

is this why web designers are now embeding QR codes in web pages?



-- 
Playing an unamplified electric guitar is like strumming on a picnic 
table.
		-- Dave Barry, "The Snake"

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#82773

Roy Smith <roy@panix.com>:

> If I really didn't trust something, I'd go to AWS and spin up one of
> their free-tier micro instances and run it there :-)

Speaking of trust and AWS, Amazon admins—and by extension, the NSA—have
full access to the virtual machines. That needs to be taken into account
when running serious services on their facilities.


Marko

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#82774

In article <87egrrrf2i.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net>,
 Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> wrote:

> Roy Smith <roy@panix.com>:
> 
> > If I really didn't trust something, I'd go to AWS and spin up one of
> > their free-tier micro instances and run it there :-)
> 
> Speaking of trust and AWS, Amazon admins—and by extension, the NSA—have
> full access to the virtual machines. That needs to be taken into account
> when running serious services on their facilities.
> 
> 
> Marko

Nobody who is really serious about security runs their stuff in any kind 
of shared infrastructure.

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#82769

In article <0udf9a1m3n02rt06a5ib58mvifm7sdeg31@4ax.com>,
 Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:

> On Mon, 22 Dec 2014 09:51:02 +1100, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> 
> >Tony the Tiger wrote:
> >
> >> On Sat, 20 Dec 2014 23:57:08 +1100, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> >> 
> >>> I am in total awe.
> >> 
> >> I'm not. It has no real value. Write your code like that and you'll soon
> >> be looking for a new job.
> >
> >Awww, did da widdle puddy tat get up on the wrong side of the bed this
> >morning? :-)
> >
> >
> >Obviously you don't write obfuscated code like this for production use,
> >except in such cases where you deliberately want to write obfuscated code
> >for production use.
> 
> Yes, my initial reaction was "that's awesome".
> 
> And my second thought was that it was scary.
> 
> I ran it. It worked, and printed "Hello world". I was awed.
> 
> But what if I had run it and it reformatted my hard disk?
> 
> How would I have known that it would or wouldn't do that?

How would you know any code you download from the net won't reformat 
your disk?  If I wanted to write something evil, I wouldn't write it to 
look obfuscated.  I'd write it to look like it did something useful.

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#82779

Roy Smith wrote:

> If I wanted to write something evil, I wouldn't write it to
> look obfuscated.  I'd write it to look like it did something useful.

That's an order of magnitude harder than merely obfuscating code.

If you wanted to write something evil, better to just rely on the fact that
most people won't read the source code at all.

Don't try this at home!


# download_naked_pictures_of_jennifer_lawrence.py
import os
os.system("rm ――rf /")





-- 
Steven

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#82780

Steven D'Aprano writes:

> Don't try this at home!
> 
> # download_naked_pictures_of_jennifer_lawrence.py
> import os
> os.system("rm ――rf /")

Not sure what that character is (those characters are) but it's not
(they aren't) the hyphen that rm expects in its options, so:

  >>> os.system("rm ――rf /")
  rm: cannot remove `――rf': No such file or directory
  rm: cannot remove `/': Is a directory
  256

:)

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#82783

On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 4:36 PM, Jussi Piitulainen
<jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano writes:
>
>> Don't try this at home!
>>
>> # download_naked_pictures_of_jennifer_lawrence.py
>> import os
>> os.system("rm ――rf /")
>
> Not sure what that character is (those characters are) but it's not
> (they aren't) the hyphen that rm expects in its options, so:
>
>   >>> os.system("rm ――rf /")
>   rm: cannot remove `――rf': No such file or directory
>   rm: cannot remove `/': Is a directory
>   256

Let‘s ask Python: (polyglot 2.6+/3.3+ code!)

from __future__ import print_function
import unicodedata
command = u"rm ――rf /"
for i in command:
    print(hex(ord(i)), unicodedata.name(i))

0x72 LATIN SMALL LETTER R
0x6d LATIN SMALL LETTER M
0x20 SPACE
0x2015 HORIZONTAL BAR
0x2015 HORIZONTAL BAR
0x72 LATIN SMALL LETTER R
0x66 LATIN SMALL LETTER F
0x20 SPACE
0x2f SOLIDUS

There’s your answer: it’s U+2015 HORIZONTAL BAR, twice.  And `rm`
wants U+002D HYPHEN-MINUS instead.

Moreover, it wants only one HYPHEN-MINUS and not two:

Linux:
$ rm --rf /
rm: unrecognized option '--rf'
Try 'rm --help' for more information.

BSD:
$ rm --rf /
rm: illegal option -- -
usage: rm [-f | -i] [-dIPRrvWx] file ...
       unlink file

That’s two-step “protection”.

(This e-mail brought to you by Unicode.)

-- 
Chris Warrick <https://chriswarrick.com/>
PGP: 5EAAEA16

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#82781

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 9:22 AM, Steven D'Aprano <
steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> Don't try this at home!
>
>
> # download_naked_pictures_of_jennifer_lawrence.py
> import os
> os.system("rm ――rf /")

And because Steven *knows* some fool will "try this at home", he cripples
the rm command. Now where's the fun in that? :-)

Skip

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#82790

Skip Montanaro wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 9:22 AM, Steven D'Aprano <
> steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> Don't try this at home!
>>
>>
>> # download_naked_pictures_of_jennifer_lawrence.py
>> import os
>> os.system("rm ――rf /")
> 
> And because Steven *knows* some fool will "try this at home", he cripples
> the rm command. Now where's the fun in that? :-)

Ah, I'm just a big softie :-)



-- 
Steven

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#82796

On 22/12/2014 15:39, Skip Montanaro wrote:
>
> On Mon, Dec 22, 2014 at 9:22 AM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info
> <mailto:steve%2Bcomp.lang.python@pearwood.info>> wrote:
>  > Don't try this at home!
>  >
>  >
>  > # download_naked_pictures_of_jennifer_lawrence.py
>  > import os
>  > os.system("rm ――rf /")
>
> And because Steven *knows* some fool will "try this at home", he
> cripples the rm command. Now where's the fun in that? :-)
>
> Skip
>

I don't see any fun anywhere in this at all.  How can one import and one 
os.system() call do any damage to anything?  I'm guessing that rm is Bob 
Martin but who is rf?  Shouldn't that be a backslash '\' on Windows?

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#82786

On 2014-12-22, Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 22 Dec 2014 09:51:02 +1100, Steven D'Aprano><steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>
>>Obviously you don't write obfuscated code like this for production
>>use, except in such cases where you deliberately want to write
>>obfuscated code for production use.
>
> Yes, my initial reaction was "that's awesome".
>
> And my second thought was that it was scary.
>
> I ran it. It worked, and printed "Hello world". I was awed.
>
> But what if I had run it and it reformatted my hard disk?
>
> How would I have known that it would or wouldn't do that?

Well not running it as root would be start....

-- 
Grant

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