Groups > comp.lang.python > #4380 > unrolled thread

What other languages use the same data model as Python?

Started by	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
First post	2011-05-01 08:45 +0000
Last post	2011-05-04 07:28 -0700
Articles	20 on this page of 176 — 34 participants

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What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-01 08:45 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Alec Taylor <alec.taylor6@gmail.com> - 2011-05-01 19:00 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2011-05-01 02:04 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-01 15:10 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-02 10:37 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-05-02 07:45 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-02 13:12 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-02 10:33 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-01 21:42 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-02 00:28 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-02 08:43 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 13:39 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-03 14:49 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-03 15:20 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 22:10 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-03 12:33 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-03 16:52 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-03 21:47 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 08:00 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 02:56 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-04 10:51 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2011-05-04 03:58 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 06:12 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 14:44 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 00:20 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 18:09 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 09:18 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 18:03 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 20:55 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 11:31 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 21:21 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 19:28 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-08 10:39 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2011-05-20 20:56 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-08 02:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-07 23:10 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 22:48 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-09 12:52 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 11:38 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-09 21:18 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 21:53 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-09 14:29 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2011-05-09 15:41 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-05-09 10:15 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-09 13:38 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-09 16:23 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 19:41 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-10 19:35 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-11 10:47 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-10 15:18 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2011-05-20 21:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-09 16:28 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-09 07:23 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:22 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2011-05-04 15:46 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:58 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 21:40 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 21:31 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:50 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 12:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 22:37 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 20:58 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 16:49 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 07:12 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 21:08 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 19:12 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:30 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? TheSaint <nobody@nowhere.net.no> - 2011-05-07 20:18 +0800
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 12:49 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:31 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 09:40 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 10:49 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:47 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-05 07:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 12:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:42 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:04 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-08 06:09 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-07 16:24 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-08 10:54 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 09:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-05-08 11:16 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-07 23:16 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 16:32 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 13:49 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-10 03:13 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-10 14:05 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-10 16:09 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-10 15:16 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 01:27 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-10 16:40 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-11 01:44 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-10 13:51 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2011-05-10 03:47 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-09 23:15 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-04 14:52 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 19:46 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-04 21:32 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 22:06 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-05 08:41 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 10:44 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 17:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 21:39 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 07:44 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 21:48 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 13:59 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2011-05-05 08:58 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 13:19 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2011-05-05 14:39 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 11:56 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 06:13 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 14:33 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-04 20:19 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 16:35 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-04 21:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 20:11 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mark Hammond <mhammond@skippinet.com.au> - 2011-05-05 12:09 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 23:01 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 22:19 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 10:31 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 15:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2011-05-05 11:29 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-06 08:01 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-06 13:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:57 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:56 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:58 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2011-05-05 17:39 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-05 13:13 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 15:12 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Tim Roberts <timr@probo.com> - 2011-05-04 20:23 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 23:55 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:21 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 08:09 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 07:34 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:10 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Mel <mwilson@the-wire.com> - 2011-05-05 11:30 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 10:56 -0500
RE: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Andreas Tawn <andreas.tawn@ubisoft.com> - 2011-05-05 18:27 +0200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:09 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-06 07:56 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:14 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 15:11 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:00 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:52 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 12:03 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-07 22:12 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-07 12:03 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:48 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-05 22:24 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 11:18 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2011-05-05 10:28 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 12:19 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 18:17 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Torek <nospam@torek.net> - 2011-05-06 19:06 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-06 14:25 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-05-07 09:43 +1000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 16:22 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-04 19:51 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2011-05-05 14:51 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-04 21:20 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2011-05-04 22:10 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-05-05 00:19 -0500
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:25 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 07:44 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2011-05-04 09:40 -0600
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 09:40 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Benjamin Kaplan <benjamin.kaplan@case.edu> - 2011-05-04 13:15 -0400
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 10:19 -0700
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2011-05-05 15:48 +1200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net> - 2011-05-05 05:58 +0100
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2011-05-05 14:24 +0000
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? Hrvoje Niksic <hniksic@xemacs.org> - 2011-05-03 15:50 +0200
Re: What other languages use the same data model as Python? sturlamolden <sturla@molden.no> - 2011-05-04 07:28 -0700

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#4715

From	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date	2011-05-05 12:14 +0000
Message-ID	<4dc2949e$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to	#4654

On Wed, 04 May 2011 15:46:07 -0400, Benjamin Kaplan wrote:

> On Wed, May 4, 2011 at 3:22 PM, harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net>
> wrote:

[...]
>>> Digging down into C should be unnecessary to explain Python.
>>
>>
>>   huh?   You have to be kidding. Why do you suppose we want it to be
>> open-sourced?   Use the force Luke, read the source.   If you really
>> want to know how Python is working you *must* dig down into the C code
>> which implements it.  The folks who document Python should be able to
>> tell us enough to know how to use the language, but to really 'know'
>> you need the implementation source.
>>
>>
> Reading the CPython sources will show you how CPython works under the
> hood, but it has nothing to do with how Python works. There are lots of
> things that CPython does that "Python" does not. For instance, the GIL
> is not a part of Python. Reference counting is not a part of Python.
> Caching small integers and strings is not a part of Python. Why not read
> the Jython sources instead of the CPython? It's the same language, after
> all.

More importantly, Python need not be implemented at all. If you're stuck 
on a desert island without electricity, you could simulate the effect of 
running any arbitrary Python code merely by understanding the semantics 
of high-level Python code, without caring the slightest about pointers at 
the C implementation level, or bit flipping at the hardware level, or von 
Neumann machines, or ref counting, or garbage collection, or any of a 
million other implementation details. All you need understand is the 
declared semantics of the language.

Surely I can't be the only one who sometimes tries to work out a tricky 
bit of Python code by hand-simulating it on pencil and paper?

-- 
Steven

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#4716

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2011-05-05 22:37 +1000
Message-ID	<mailman.1188.1304599052.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4715

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 10:14 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> More importantly, Python need not be implemented at all. If you're stuck
> on a desert island without electricity, you could simulate the effect of
> running any arbitrary Python code merely by understanding the semantics
> of high-level Python code...

http://xkcd.com/505/

Chris Angelico

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#4657

From	Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net>
Date	2011-05-04 20:58 +0100
Message-ID	<9nn898-dnl.ln1@svn.schaathun.net>
In reply to	#4649

On Wed, 04 May 2011 14:22:38 -0500, harrismh777
  <harrismh777@charter.net> wrote:
:      That statement is untrue; evidenced by the very fact the CPython's 
:  complex and abstract data modeling has been very suitably handled by C.

That's an implementation.  Not modelling.

:      You cannot possibly mean what you have asserted... I realize there 
:  must be a contextual problem.  I have been handling complex data 
:  abstractions with C for more than 20 years...

I did not say that it is impossible.  On the other hand, you are
clearly not talking about abstraction or modelling at all, but
rather about computation or data processing.

:                                                 its quite well suited to 
:  the task... although, I am able to do my research today faster and with 
:  less lines of code in CPython.  That does not in any way impugn C..;. 
:  quite the contrary, given enough time,  C is better suited for modeling 
:  on a von Neumann processor, period.

What has that got to do with abstraction?

:      Here is the thing that everyone forgets... all we have to work with 
:  is a von Neumann processor. (same as EDVAC, ENIAC, the VIC20, etc). 
:  Assembler is still the best language on that processor.  'C'  is still 
:  the best high-level language on that processor.  CPython is implemented 
:  in C for a reason:  gcc and the von Neumann processor make it a no-brainer.

Again, what has that got to do with abstraction?

:      Its silly to claim that one high-level language or another is better 
:  suited to complex data abstraction... don't go there.

: 
: > Digging down into C should be unnecessary to explain Python.
: 
:      huh?   You have to be kidding. Why do you suppose we want it to be 
:  open-sourced? 

Python is a /language/.  The /implementation/ is may be open-source
(and may or may not be written in C).

:                 Use the force Luke, read the source.   If you really 
:  want to know how Python is working you *must* dig down into the C code 
:  which implements it.

Except that whatever you learn by doing so is only valid for that one
interpreter.

-- 
:-- Hans Georg

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#4665

From	harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net>
Date	2011-05-04 16:49 -0500
Message-ID	<FRjwp.3$xo2.1@newsfe07.iad>
In reply to	#4657

Hans Georg Schaathun wrote:
> That does not in any way impugn C..;.
> :  quite the contrary, given enough time,  C is better suited for modeling
> :  on a von Neumann processor, period.
>
> What has that got to do with abstraction?

Everything, really.

Folks seem to think that because they are doing abstraction at a 
high-level (well, they never maybe programmed at a lower level) that 
abstraction somehow 'requires' a high level language.  (not true)

Back in the day, our abstractions were encapsulated not in source, but 
in psuedo-code, flow-charts, diagrams, and sometimes pretty pictures. It 
all ended up in assembly and machine code.

Today, high-level languages like Python (and others) allow programmers 
to place some of their abstraction into their source code directly. This 
does not make the high-level language any more 'suited' to abstraction 
than any other lower-level language; because the abstraction is a mental 
process not a language feature. It all ends up in assembly and machine 
code.

kind regards,
m harris

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#4700

From	Hans Georg Schaathun <hg@schaathun.net>
Date	2011-05-05 07:12 +0100
Message-ID	<0nr998-oen.ln1@svn.schaathun.net>
In reply to	#4665

On Wed, 04 May 2011 16:49:25 -0500, harrismh777
  <harrismh777@charter.net> wrote:
:  Folks seem to think that because they are doing abstraction at a 
:  high-level (well, they never maybe programmed at a lower level) that 
:  abstraction somehow 'requires' a high level language.  (not true)

I never said 'requires', but when you do high-level modelling,
low-level detail is a distraction.  Using a low-level language
for abstract modelling is therefore harder than it needs to be.

:  Today, high-level languages like Python (and others) allow programmers 
:  to place some of their abstraction into their source code directly. This 
:  does not make the high-level language any more 'suited' to abstraction 
:  than any other lower-level language; because the abstraction is a mental 
:  process not a language feature. It all ends up in assembly and machine 
:  code.

Indeed, except for the contradiction.  The fact that you can 
put more of your abstraction into the source code means that it is
better suited to abstraction.

Mental processes depend on language; at least when you need to
communicate the output.  That language does not have to be
computer readable (as is the case for your float charts etc).
We may very well use a stack of languages and models at different
levels of abstraction, but when you move down the stack you are
moving away from abstraction and into implementation.

C is very rarely suitable at the top of this stack.  When I say that
C is ill-suited for abstraction, I am not implying that it is ill-suited
for implementing according to an abstract model.  If you need human
input in the lower layers of abstraction, C is a good choice. 

Using manual work to move down the layers of abstraction is possible,
and given sufficient man-power should give the better result, but
relying on human input when the work can be automated is ridiculously
expensive.

Now, python is only one level above C in abstraction, but that's a 
different matter.

-- 
:-- Hans Georg

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#4704

From	Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz>
Date	2011-05-05 21:08 +1200
Message-ID	<92f7nuFfhhU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#4649

harrismh777 wrote:
> 'C'  is still the best high-level language on that processor.

Some would argue that C is actually better than assembler these
days, because modern architectures are so freaking complicated
that it takes a computer to figure out the best instruction
sequence. :-(

-- 
Greg

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#4705

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2011-05-05 19:12 +1000
Message-ID	<mailman.1185.1304586781.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4704

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 7:08 PM, Gregory Ewing
<greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> harrismh777 wrote:
>>
>> 'C'  is still the best high-level language on that processor.
>
> Some would argue that C is actually better than assembler these
> days, because modern architectures are so freaking complicated
> that it takes a computer to figure out the best instruction
> sequence. :-(

I use C to hint to the compiler as to what I'd like it to write a
program to do. It does all the writing, I just make some vague
suggestions - which it's free to ignore if it chooses. GCC and me, we
get along jess fine...

ChrisA

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#4732

From	Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-05 14:30 +0000
Message-ID	<ipuc9g$e4q$6@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to	#4704

On 2011-05-05, Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> wrote:
> harrismh777 wrote:
>> 'C'  is still the best high-level language on that processor.
>
> Some would argue that C is actually better than assembler these
> days, because modern architectures are so freaking complicated
> that it takes a computer to figure out the best instruction
> sequence. :-(

Been there, done that.

Many years ago, it took me more than a week (and required the help of
an ARM instruction set guru) to come up with an assembly language IP
checksum routine for the ARM that out-performed the somewhat naive
NetBSD "C" version.  When we switched to the FreeBSD stack (and a
newer compiler) a few years later, my assembly code got tossed out
because was no longer any faster than the C version.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! Half a mind is a
                                  at               terrible thing to waste!
                              gmail.com

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#4904

From	TheSaint <nobody@nowhere.net.no>
Date	2011-05-07 20:18 +0800
Message-ID	<iq3dbi$3sa$1@speranza.aioe.org>
In reply to	#4704

Gregory Ewing wrote:

>  because modern architectures are so freaking complicated
> that it takes a computer to figure out the best instruction
> sequence

certainly is, I would not imagine one who writes on scraps of paper
:D :D :D

-- 
goto /dev/null

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#4717

From	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date	2011-05-05 12:49 +0000
Message-ID	<4dc29cdd$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to	#4649

On Wed, 04 May 2011 14:22:38 -0500, harrismh777 wrote:

>     Here is the thing that everyone forgets... all we have to work with
> is a von Neumann processor. (same as EDVAC, ENIAC, the VIC20, etc).

Actually, this is incorrect. Most processors these days are hybrids 
between that and either the Harvard or Modified Harvard architecture:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_Harvard_architecture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_architecture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_architecture

> Assembler is still the best language on that processor.

Assembly is not "a" language, it is a generic term for dozens or hundreds 
of different languages. But in any case, it's not clear what you mean by 
"best language".

> 'C'  is still the best high-level language on that processor.

C is better described as a high-level assembler, or a low-level language. 
It is too close to the hardware to describe it as high-level, it has no 
memory management, few data abstractions, and little protection.

>     Its silly to claim that one high-level language or another is better
> suited to complex data abstraction... don't go there.

Surely you can't possibly mean that?

Surely you don't mean to tell us that the 1957 version of FORTRAN, or 
unstructured BASIC, or early COBOL, are just as well suited to data 
abstraction as (say) Haskell?

Many implementations of unstructured BASIC didn't even have arrays, only 
character strings and integers.

Or (one of my personal favourites), Apple's Hypertalk? *Everything* is a 
string in Hypertalk. I love Hypertalk, but good for data abstraction? 
Don't make me laugh.

You should read Paul Graham on the Blub Paradox:

http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html

-- 
Steven

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#4734

From	Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid>
Date	2011-05-05 14:31 +0000
Message-ID	<ipuccu$e4q$7@reader1.panix.com>
In reply to	#4717

On 2011-05-05, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Wed, 04 May 2011 14:22:38 -0500, harrismh777 wrote:
>
>>     Here is the thing that everyone forgets... all we have to work with
>> is a von Neumann processor. (same as EDVAC, ENIAC, the VIC20, etc).
>
> Actually, this is incorrect. Most processors these days are hybrids 
> between that and either the Harvard or Modified Harvard architecture:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modified_Harvard_architecture
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvard_architecture
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_Neumann_architecture

And a lot of the are still full-up Harvard architecture (e.g. the
entire Atmel AVR family and Intel 8051 family for example).

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! When this load is
                                  at               DONE I think I'll wash it
                              gmail.com            AGAIN ...

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#4737

From	harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net>
Date	2011-05-05 09:40 -0500
Message-ID	<SFywp.13792$ei6.4428@newsfe19.iad>
In reply to	#4717

Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> You should read Paul Graham on the Blub Paradox:
>
> http://www.paulgraham.com/avg.html
>
>
Excellent-!   ... thanks, fun article.


...  where is that lisp manual anyway?  ... oh, yeah, emacs!



:)

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#4739

From	Roy Smith <roy@panix.com>
Date	2011-05-05 10:49 -0400
Message-ID	<roy-132E37.10493505052011@news.panix.com>
In reply to	#4717

In article <4dc29cdd$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>,
 Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:

> C is better described as a high-level assembler, or a low-level language. 
> It is too close to the hardware to describe it as high-level, it has no 
> memory management, few data abstractions, and little protection.

+1

I (and most people who really know C and the specific hardware 
architecture they're working on) should be able to look at a C program 
and (modulo optimization) pretty much be able to write down the 
generated assembler by hand.  In fact, I used to do exactly that.  I was 
once working on M-6800 hardware (8/16-bit microprocessor).  I used to 
write out procedures in C, then hand-compile it into assembler code (and 
leave the C code as a comment).  I wasn't a true masochist, however.  I 
did let an assembler convert it to hex for me before I keyed it in :-)

On the other hand, trying to do that for something like C++ is damn near 
impossible.  There's too much stuff that happens by magic.  Creation 
(and destruction) of temporary objects.  Exception handling.  RTTI.  Not 
to mention truly black magic like template expansion.

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#4655

From	harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net>
Date	2011-05-04 14:47 -0500
Message-ID	<r3iwp.24132$vC5.266@newsfe01.iad>
In reply to	#4611

Devin Jeanpierre wrote:
>> "How was the date last night?"

>> >  "Oh, it was marvelous! He presented me with a single red stink-weed, and
>> >  then we went to a disgusting little restaurant. I had the swill."

> Please don't argue with me in this manner.

    D'Aprano takes a little getting used to. He likes strawmen, 
red-hearings, and the venerable bogus analogy. Just read around them, he 
usually has some good points in there...


kind regards,
m harris

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#4663

From	Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au>
Date	2011-05-05 07:43 +1000
Message-ID	<87mxj2f8f4.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
In reply to	#4606

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> writes:

> Given the following statement of Python code:
>
> >>> x = "spam"
>
> what is the value of the variable x?

Mu (無).

‘x’ is a name. Names are bound to values. Talk of “variable” only
confuses the issue because of the baggage carried with that term.

Yes, the Python documentation disagrees with me.

> (1) The string "spam".

> I argue that any answer except for (1) is (almost always) counter-
> productive: it adds more confusion than shedding light.

I prefer to respond “The name ‘x’ is bound to a string, "spam"”.

(If I knew which version of Python we're using, I'd qualify the type as
“a text string” or “a byte string”.)

> It requires thinking at the wrong level, at the implementation level
> instead of the level of Python code. If we define "value" to mean the
> invisible, inaccessible reference, then that leaves no word to
> describe was the string "spam" is.

Fine, the value is the string. No problem there.

But the data model of Python doesn't fit well with the ideas that the
term “variable” connotes for most programmers: a box, perhaps of a rigid
shape (data type) or not, which is labelled ‘x’ and nothing else. For
another variable to have an equal value, that value needs to be copied
and put in a separate box; or perhaps some special reference to the
original needs to be made and placed in a box.

Saying “variable” and “has the value” just invites baggage needlessly,
and creates many assumptions about Python's data model which has to be
un-done, often after much false mental scaffolding has been built on
them by the newbie and needs to be dismantled carefully.

As we all know, Python doesn't work as the term “variable” implies for
many. Rather, ‘x’ isn't a container at all, but an identifier only. It's
more like a paper tag which can be tied to objects; that brings a bunch
of useful implications:

* that the paper tag is tied to only one object

* that a paper tag tied to no object is rather useless

* that many paper tags can be tied to the same object

* that the paper tag is only loosely associated with the object and can
  be removed and tied to a different object, without any change to the
  objects themselves

* that the object doesn't necessarily have any tag at a given point in
  time

* that the tag with its string is useful to find the object even without
  a name on the tag (the concept of other non-name bindings to objects,
  e.g. list items)

All those implications of the “paper tag” analogy are helpful in
thinking about the Python data model. And those implications don't even
have to be explicitly stated in order to help.

So instead of inviting confusion with “variable ‘x’ has the value
"spam"” I prefer to say “name ‘x’ is bound to the value "spam"”.

> The intellectual contortions that some people will go through to
> hammer the square peg of actual programming language behaviour into
> the two round holes of "pass by value" and "pass by reference" never
> cease to astonish me.

I maintain that avoiding the use of the term “variable”, and gently
correcting those who use it in the context of Python (with humility in
the face of the fact that the Python documentation liberally uses the
term), can short-circuit a lot of that needless confusion.

Python isn't pass by anything. Nothing gets copied, nothing gets passed;
when a function is called with an object as a parameter, the object
stays put, and simply gets a new temporary name bound to it for the
function's use.

Speaking of objects (or values) with names bound to them helps that
explanation in a way that the traditional image of “variables” does not.

> > Whatever, a rose by any other name...)
>
> Do you really think that roses would be the symbol of romantic love if 
> they were called "disgusting stink-weeds of perversion and death"?

Juliet's point stands, though: they would still smell as sweet, and the
term you describe would be unlikely to catch on since it doesn't
describe them well at all.

-- 
 \      “I like to fill my bathtub up with water, then turn the shower |
  `\       on and pretend I'm in a submarine that's been hit.” —Steven |
_o__)                                                           Wright |
Ben Finney

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#4687

From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Date	2011-05-05 12:43 +1000
Message-ID	<mailman.1181.1304563387.9059.python-list@python.org>
In reply to	#4663

On Thu, May 5, 2011 at 7:43 AM, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> * that the paper tag is tied to only one object
>
> * that a paper tag tied to no object is rather useless
>
> * that many paper tags can be tied to the same object

I disagree minorly; a tag tied to no object is quite useful in some
circumstances. You can ditch the concept by having a special object
that's called "No Object" (Python does this, with None), or you can
allow your tag to point nowhere (C does this, with null pointers). The
difference is semantic; either way, your tag can point to any object
or it can point nowhere. (Pike goes for a slightly different approach;
any variable, regardless of its stated types, may legally hold the
integer 0. It acts somewhat as a null pointer, but it isn't really.)

Chris Angelico

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#4749

From	Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
Date	2011-05-05 15:42 +0000
Message-ID	<4dc2c582$0$29991$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
In reply to	#4663

On Thu, 05 May 2011 07:43:59 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:

> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> writes:
> 
>> Given the following statement of Python code:
>>
>> >>> x = "spam"
>>
>> what is the value of the variable x?
> 
> Mu (無).
> 
> ‘x’ is a name. Names are bound to values. Talk of “variable” only
> confuses the issue because of the baggage carried with that term.

Yes, good point. Consider me chastised, because I actually knew that. 
It's just that the term "variable" is so useful and so familiar that it's 
easy to use it even for languages that don't have variables in the C/
Pascal/Fortran/etc sense.

> But the data model of Python doesn't fit well with the ideas that the
> term “variable” connotes for most programmers: a box, perhaps of a rigid
> shape (data type) or not, which is labelled ‘x’ and nothing else. For
> another variable to have an equal value, that value needs to be copied
> and put in a separate box; or perhaps some special reference to the
> original needs to be made and placed in a box.
> 
> Saying “variable” and “has the value” just invites baggage needlessly,
> and creates many assumptions about Python's data model which has to be
> un-done, often after much false mental scaffolding has been built on
> them by the newbie and needs to be dismantled carefully.

I've quoted your two paragraphs because I think they're very important, 
not because I intend arguing. Possibly a first for me :)

However.... 

> Python isn't pass by anything. Nothing gets copied, nothing gets passed;
> when a function is called with an object as a parameter, the object
> stays put, and simply gets a new temporary name bound to it for the
> function's use.

This, however, is incorrect. "Passing" in this sense refers to calling 
the function with an argument, hence "pass by..." and "call by..." are 
synonyms. The mechanics of how the compiler or interpreter makes 
arguments available to functions has real consequences at the language 
level: the calling strategy used by the compiler effects the language 
semantics.

>> > Whatever, a rose by any other name...)
>>
>> Do you really think that roses would be the symbol of romantic love if
>> they were called "disgusting stink-weeds of perversion and death"?
> 
> Juliet's point stands, though: they would still smell as sweet, and the
> term you describe would be unlikely to catch on since it doesn't
> describe them well at all.

Perhaps a counter-example is that of the tomato, which never took off as 
a food in Europe until people stopped calling them "love apples", and 
thinking that they were deadly poison.

Or Chinese Gooseberries, better known by the name thought up by a 
marketing firm, "kiwi fruit".

-- 
Steven

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#4899

From	Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz>
Date	2011-05-07 22:04 +1200
Message-ID	<92kjooF31mU1@mid.individual.net>
In reply to	#4749

> On Thu, 05 May 2011 07:43:59 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
> 
>>‘x’ is a name. Names are bound to values. Talk of “variable” only
>>confuses the issue because of the baggage carried with that term.

But to use 'name' as a complete replacement for 'variable',
you have to stretch it to include things like a[i], b.c,
e.f(x).g[i:j].k, etc. which goes rather a long way beyond
the everyday meaning of the word.

In Python I use 'variable' to mean more or less 'something
that can be assigned to', which accords with the way it's
used in relation to many other languages, and doesn't
suggest any restriction to things named by a single
identifier.

>>But the data model of Python doesn't fit well with the ideas that the
>>term “variable” connotes for most programmers:

Seems to me that anyone taking that connotation from it
has not yet been sufficiently educated about the Python
data model itself. Part of explaining that data model
consists of instilling the very idea that the things in
Python that are analogous to variables in other languages
only refer to data rather than containing the actual data.

>>Saying “variable” and “has the value”

But I don't say "has a value", I say "refers to".

-- 
Greg

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#4916

From	Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au>
Date	2011-05-08 06:09 +1000
Message-ID	<87aaeymfww.fsf@benfinney.id.au>
In reply to	#4899

Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> writes:

> > On Thu, 05 May 2011 07:43:59 +1000, Ben Finney wrote:
> >
> >>‘x’ is a name. Names are bound to values. Talk of “variable” only
> >>confuses the issue because of the baggage carried with that term.
>
> But to use 'name' as a complete replacement for 'variable',

I don't propose doing that.

> In Python I use 'variable' to mean more or less 'something that can be
> assigned to', which accords with the way it's used in relation to many
> other languages, and doesn't suggest any restriction to things named
> by a single identifier.

No, I think not. The term “variable” usually comes with a strong
expectation that every variable has exactly one name. Your more broad
usage would need to be carefully explained to newbies anyway, so I don't
see a good reason to use the term “variable” for that either.

> Seems to me that anyone taking that connotation from it has not yet
> been sufficiently educated about the Python data model itself.

Yes, of course. But why not meet such newcomers partway, by not
confusing the issue with a term which needs such delicate treatment?

> >>Saying “variable” and “has the value”
>
> But I don't say "has a value", I say "refers to".

Good for you. Most don't.

-- 
 \     Q: “I've heard that Linux causes cancer...” Torvalds: “That's a |
  `\         filthy lie. Besides, it was only in rats and has not been |
_o__)                           reproduced in humans.” —Linus Torvalds |
Ben Finney

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#4918

From	Roy Smith <roy@panix.com>
Date	2011-05-07 16:24 -0400
Message-ID	<roy-567A1E.16242607052011@news.panix.com>
In reply to	#4916

In article <87aaeymfww.fsf@benfinney.id.au>,
 Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:

> No, I think not. The term “variable” usually comes with a strong
> expectation that every variable has exactly one name.

Heh.  You've never used common blocks in Fortran?  Or, for that matter, 
references in C++?  I would call either of those "two names for the same 
variable".

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csiph-web

What other languages use the same data model as Python?

Contents

#4715

#4716

#4657

#4665

#4700

#4704

#4705

#4732

#4904

#4717

#4734

#4737

#4739

#4655

#4663

#4687

#4749

#4899

#4916

#4918