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Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors]

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  Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2013-07-06 09:10 -0500
    Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-06 08:04 -0700
      Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-07-06 09:39 -0600
      Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.demon.co.uk> - 2013-07-08 23:44 +0100
    Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-07 02:41 +0000
      Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] jussij@zeusedit.com - 2013-07-07 22:34 -0700
        Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-08 07:39 +0000
        Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Jason Friedman <jsf80238@gmail.com> - 2013-07-08 22:27 -0600
          Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-07-09 12:12 +0000
            Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-07-09 17:04 -0400
    Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Giorgos Tzampanakis <giorgos.tzampanakis@gmail.com> - 2013-07-08 06:54 +0000
      Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Xue Fuqiao <xfq.free@gmail.com> - 2013-07-10 12:17 +0800
        Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] jussij@zeusedit.com - 2013-07-10 21:15 -0700
          Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-07-11 09:45 -0400
            Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> - 2013-07-11 16:42 +0100
              Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-12 01:50 +1000
                Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-12 04:24 +0000
                  Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-12 14:34 +1000
                  Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] "Eric S. Johansson" <esj@harvee.org> - 2013-07-12 00:57 -0400
                  Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-07-12 18:34 -0400
                  Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] "Eric S. Johansson" <esj@harvee.org> - 2013-07-12 18:54 -0400
            Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-12 02:39 +0000
              Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-12 12:50 +1000
              Re: Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors] Giorgos Tzampanakis <giorgos.tzampanakis@gmail.com> - 2013-07-14 17:12 +0000

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#50064 — Editor Ergonomics [was: Important features for editors]

> The fact that rms has crippling RSI should indicate that
> emacs' ergonomics is not right.

Kind of a small sample size, don't you think? Hopefully we can kill
this meme that Emacs is somehow worse for your wrists than other text
editors before it goes any further than your one unsupported
assertion.

I've been using one form or another of Emacs as a programmer/software
engineer for over 30 years.  While I have had problems with RSI from
time-to-time, there have generally been other factors at play other
than just use of a text editor.  I have learned how to manage it and
recognize the warning signs that indicate the onset of an episode.

More likely, rms ignored the problem and had bad personal ergomonics:
ignorance or lack of understanding of the problem, poor posture,
wrists not in a neutral position, lack of breaks, etc.  If you stop to
think about it, all text editors probably present similar issues for
their users.  They all involve:

* a lot of typing,
* use of modifier keys (ctrl, alt, command, etc)
* movement between the mouse and the keyboard

Skip

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#50068

On Saturday, July 6, 2013 7:40:39 PM UTC+5:30, Skip Montanaro wrote:
> > The fact that rms has crippling RSI should indicate that
> > emacs' ergonomics is not right.
> 
> Kind of a small sample size, don't you think? Hopefully we can kill
> this meme that Emacs is somehow worse for your wrists than other text
> editors before it goes any further than your one unsupported
> assertion.

Not beyond small sample but beyond singleton:
http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_hand_pain_celebrity.html

> * a lot of typing,
> * use of modifier keys (ctrl, alt, command, etc)
> * movement between the mouse and the keyboard

My own experience: The second 2 are the worse culprits.
And while emacs is bad on the second, its excellent on the third -- to the extend that you 'live inside emacs,' you dont need the mouse.

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#50069

On Sat, Jul 6, 2013 at 9:04 AM, rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, July 6, 2013 7:40:39 PM UTC+5:30, Skip Montanaro wrote:
>> > The fact that rms has crippling RSI should indicate that
>> > emacs' ergonomics is not right.
>>
>> Kind of a small sample size, don't you think? Hopefully we can kill
>> this meme that Emacs is somehow worse for your wrists than other text
>> editors before it goes any further than your one unsupported
>> assertion.
>
> Not beyond small sample but beyond singleton:
> http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_hand_pain_celebrity.html

Funny that although that list claims a focus on emacs, the fourth
person on the list is a vi user.  The upshot here is that people who
use keyboards a lot often suffer from RSI.  You can't just link it to
a particular editor on the basis of a few anecdotes.

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#50181

On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 16:04:00 +0100, rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Saturday, July 6, 2013 7:40:39 PM UTC+5:30, Skip Montanaro wrote:
>> * a lot of typing,
>> * use of modifier keys (ctrl, alt, command, etc)
>> * movement between the mouse and the keyboard
>
> My own experience: The second 2 are the worse culprits.
> And while emacs is bad on the second, its excellent on the third -- to  
> the extend that you 'live inside emacs,' you dont need the mouse.

You clearly never trained as a classical pianist :-)

-- 
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest Herder to the Masses

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#50092

On Sat, 06 Jul 2013 09:10:39 -0500, Skip Montanaro wrote:

>> The fact that rms has crippling RSI should indicate that emacs'
>> ergonomics is not right.
> 
> Kind of a small sample size, don't you think? 

Yes, but RMS is worth 1000 ordinary programmers!!!

*wink*


[...]
> More likely, rms ignored the problem and had bad personal ergomonics:
> ignorance or lack of understanding of the problem, poor posture, wrists
> not in a neutral position, lack of breaks, etc.  If you stop to think
> about it, all text editors probably present similar issues for their
> users.  They all involve:
> 
> * a lot of typing,
> * use of modifier keys (ctrl, alt, command, etc)
> * movement between the mouse and the keyboard

I am not an ergonomic expert, but I understand that moving from mouse to 
keyboard actually helps prevent RSI, because it slows down the rate of 
keystrokes and uses different muscle groups.


-- 
Steven

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#50119

On Sunday, July 7, 2013 12:41:02 PM UTC+10, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> I am not an ergonomic expert, but I understand that moving from mouse to 
> keyboard actually helps prevent RSI, because it slows down the rate of 
> keystrokes and uses different muscle groups.

After 20+ years of coding using the Brief keyboard mapping I have so far I've gotten by with no perceivable RSI.

On the half dozen occasions that I can recall experienced wrist pain, I remember the pain being worst when trying to interfacing with the mouse.

So at least for me the mouse does not help.

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#50126

On Sun, 07 Jul 2013 22:34:46 -0700, jussij wrote:

> On Sunday, July 7, 2013 12:41:02 PM UTC+10, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> 
>> I am not an ergonomic expert, but I understand that moving from mouse
>> to keyboard actually helps prevent RSI, because it slows down the rate
>> of keystrokes and uses different muscle groups.
> 
> After 20+ years of coding using the Brief keyboard mapping I have so far
> I've gotten by with no perceivable RSI.
> 
> On the half dozen occasions that I can recall experienced wrist pain, I
> remember the pain being worst when trying to interfacing with the mouse.
> 
> So at least for me the mouse does not help.

Chances are that you had one of those ridiculously high mice that force 
your wrist to bend upwards ("dorsiflexion"), or otherwise were bending 
the wrist inappropriately. When mousing, your wrist should be as close to 
straight as possible. It helps if your mouse has a low profile, so that 
you can rest your wrist and forearm on the desk and control your mouse 
with your fingers without bending the wrist.

Assuming that you're keeping your wrists straight, then shifting from 
typing to mousing should reduce the chances of RSI because you are using 
different muscle groups. But if your mouse position is worse than your 
typing position, yes, that will probably cause problems...


-- 
Steven

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#50191

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

I am right-handed and use a lefty-mouse about 50% of the time.
It was difficult at first, now I'm almost as fast lefty as righty.
As has been stated by others, changing the muscles being used reduces the
impact on any one of them.

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#50235

On 2013-07-09, Jason Friedman <jsf80238@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am right-handed and use a lefty-mouse about 50% of the time.
> It was difficult at first, now I'm almost as fast lefty as
> righty. As has been stated by others, changing the muscles
> being used reduces the impact on any one of them.

That's the system I've adopted. I use the mouse lefty all day
when working and righty all night when playing.

-- 
Neil Cerutti

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#50273

On 7/9/2013 8:12 AM, Neil Cerutti wrote:
> On 2013-07-09, Jason Friedman <jsf80238@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I am right-handed and use a lefty-mouse about 50% of the time.
>> It was difficult at first, now I'm almost as fast lefty as
>> righty. As has been stated by others, changing the muscles
>> being used reduces the impact on any one of them.
>
> That's the system I've adopted. I use the mouse lefty all day
> when working and righty all night when playing.

Me too, more or less.


-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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#50125

On 2013-07-06, Skip Montanaro wrote:

> More likely, rms ignored the problem and had bad personal ergomonics:
> ignorance or lack of understanding of the problem, poor posture,
> wrists not in a neutral position, lack of breaks, etc.  If you stop to
> think about it, all text editors probably present similar issues for
> their users.  They all involve:
>
> * a lot of typing,

If you do touch-typing then this shouldn't cause any problems since the
finger/hand movement required is minimal.

> * use of modifier keys (ctrl, alt, command, etc)

Alt is not a problem, you hit them with your thumbs. Ctrl you should use
the bottom-outer part of your palm. If you actually hit ctrl with your
little finger then yes, this is a disaster waiting to happen.

> * movement between the mouse and the keyboard

Avoid at all costs. Use an editor that never needs the mouse (emacs or
vim).


-- 
Real (i.e. statistical) tennis and snooker player rankings and ratings:
http://www.statsfair.com/ 

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#50306

On Mon, Jul 8, 2013 at 2:54 PM, Giorgos Tzampanakis
<giorgos.tzampanakis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2013-07-06, Skip Montanaro wrote:
>> * movement between the mouse and the keyboard
>
> Avoid at all costs. Use an editor that never needs the mouse (emacs or
> vim).

I don't use vim often, but for Emacs, I think mouse is often needed:

* It is especially handy for selecting and deleting text.
* Mouse wheel gives you fine control.  You can scroll by a few lines,
  but scroll-{up, down}-command can't.  For programmers working on
  source code, this is especially nice.
* There is mouse3.el[fn:1], which is very convenient.

Footnotes:

[fn:1] http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/mouse3.el

--
Best regards, Xue Fuqiao.
http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/

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#50409

On Wednesday, July 10, 2013 2:17:12 PM UTC+10, Xue Fuqiao wrote:

> * It is especially handy for selecting and deleting text.

When coding I never use a mouse to select text regions or to delete text.

These operations I do using just the keyboard.

 

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#50445

In article <2fdf282e-fd28-4ba3-8c83-aaaace1201ec@googlegroups.com>,
 jussij@zeusedit.com wrote:

> On Wednesday, July 10, 2013 2:17:12 PM UTC+10, Xue Fuqiao wrote:
> 
> > * It is especially handy for selecting and deleting text.
> 
> When coding I never use a mouse to select text regions or to delete text.
> 
> These operations I do using just the keyboard.

For good typists, there is high overhead to getting your hands oriented 
on the keyboard (that's why the F and J keys have little bumps).  So, 
any time you move your hand from the keyboard to the mouse, you pay a 
price.

The worst thing is to constantly be alternating between mouse actions 
and keyboard actions.  You spend all your time getting your fingers 
hands re-oriented.  That's slow.  This is why I never understood the 
attraction of something like xemacs, where you use the mouse to make 
text selections and run commands out of menus.  It means you have to 
keep switching hand modes.  I use emacs in non-window mode, which means 
my hands never leave the keyboard.

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#50456

Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> writes:

>  This is why I never understood the attraction of something like
> xemacs, where you use the mouse to make text selections and run
> commands out of menus.

Menus are good for learning the functionality, and you have them just as
much in Gnu emacs as in xemacs. You can even use them absent a windowing
system! Text selection with a mouse is a different thing. Sometimes it's
more convenient, sometimes it's not.

But I agree with your general point - it's often quicker to keep your
hands in position, which is where knowing keybinds for everything
scores.

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#50458

On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 1:42 AM, Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk> wrote:
> Text selection with a mouse is a different thing. Sometimes it's
> more convenient, sometimes it's not.

As screens get larger and the amount of text on them increases, it's
likely to get more and more useful to use a mouse... but personally, I
still find the switch-to-mouse operation so clunky on anything except
a Thinkpad that I'll use the keyboard even if it's a bit slower. (Why
are Thinkpads different? Because the mouse, which is excellent, is
right under my fingers, between G/H/B. It's less hassle to move to the
mouse than, say, to hit Backspace, which I do quite a bit while
typing. Effectively, I can touch-type the mouse. A HUGE advantage.)

ChrisA

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#50492

On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 01:50:17 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 1:42 AM, Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk>
> wrote:
>> Text selection with a mouse is a different thing. Sometimes it's more
>> convenient, sometimes it's not.
> 
> As screens get larger and the amount of text on them increases, it's
> likely to get more and more useful to use a mouse... but personally, I
> still find the switch-to-mouse operation so clunky on anything except a
> Thinkpad that I'll use the keyboard even if it's a bit slower. (Why are
> Thinkpads different? Because the mouse, which is excellent, is right
> under my fingers, between G/H/B. 

You mean those horrible nipple things? 

Ewwww. Ewwww. Damn things get the tactile feedback *completely* wrong. 
They're even worse than those awful little mousepads that you stroke.

Frankly, nothing comes even close to a real mouse for feedback and ease 
of use. Maybe a stylus. But that's it.


-- 
Steven

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#50493

On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 2:24 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 01:50:17 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
>
>> On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 1:42 AM, Paul Rudin <paul.nospam@rudin.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>> Text selection with a mouse is a different thing. Sometimes it's more
>>> convenient, sometimes it's not.
>>
>> As screens get larger and the amount of text on them increases, it's
>> likely to get more and more useful to use a mouse... but personally, I
>> still find the switch-to-mouse operation so clunky on anything except a
>> Thinkpad that I'll use the keyboard even if it's a bit slower. (Why are
>> Thinkpads different? Because the mouse, which is excellent, is right
>> under my fingers, between G/H/B.
>
> You mean those horrible nipple things?
>
> Ewwww. Ewwww. Damn things get the tactile feedback *completely* wrong.
> They're even worse than those awful little mousepads that you stroke.
>
> Frankly, nothing comes even close to a real mouse for feedback and ease
> of use. Maybe a stylus. But that's it.

I would guess that you used a Dell one. They're far FAR worse. We have
Dell laptops at work and I use external mice with them all. The IBM
trackpoint is far better. I can game with a trackpoint, but when I
built a Windows 7 desktop box for Alice, I had to go buy a high
precision mouse just to be able to game properly.

ChrisA

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#50497

On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 00:24:26 -0400, Steven D'Aprano  
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:

> Frankly, nothing comes even close to a real mouse for feedback and ease
> of use. Maybe a stylus. But that's it.

before tremors, I would agree with you. Stylus is amazingly good tool for  
user interaction in a GUI. After tremors, not so much. For example, when  
you sweep across the pad, you keep your mouse tip up, over and use  
feedback from your mouse pointer to tell you when to touch down. My  
tremors caused mouse clicks on tablet at about a 2 Hz rate. You can just  
imagine it, hearing me move the stylus across the pad going: Tap tap tap  
tap tap tap tap. Yeah, sucks to be me. A high-resolution mouse is  
similarly problematic because I can make a gross motion to another part of  
the screen. hitting a small target on a high-resolution screen is not easy  
in the least and usually takes longer than the gross positioning across  
the screen. What I would love is a mouse interface that uses a mouse  
motion for a small range but a force vector like Mr. eraser head for  
longer-range movement. Not exactly sure how the mouse would behave but  
that's a very rough idea what would work well with my hands.

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#50559

On Fri, 12 Jul 2013 00:57:24 -0400, "Eric S. Johansson" <esj@harvee.org>
declaimed the following:

>tap tap tap tap. Yeah, sucks to be me. A high-resolution mouse is  
>similarly problematic because I can make a gross motion to another part of  
>the screen. hitting a small target on a high-resolution screen is not easy  
>in the least and usually takes longer than the gross positioning across  
>the screen. What I would love is a mouse interface that uses a mouse  
>motion for a small range but a force vector like Mr. eraser head for  
>longer-range movement. Not exactly sure how the mouse would behave but  
>that's a very rough idea what would work well with my hands.

	Sounds like you might have liked an accessory I had on my Amiga.
Basically a proportional joystick feeding an interface box which converted
the position value into a sequence of mouse movements -- in which the speed
of mouse "ticks" varied in proportion to the joystick angle. Very easy to
do large movements (just tilt the stick all the way) and still have precise
capability (barely nudge the stick). Software could also be configured to
treat a small tilt as "local movement" while large tilts mapped to absolute
screen positions.

http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/6748/Gravis%20MouseStick/


-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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