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[STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO

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  [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2016-02-02 19:26 -0800
    Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO John Ladasky <john_ladasky@sbcglobal.net> - 2016-02-02 22:02 -0800
      Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Bernardo Sulzbach <mafagafogigante@gmail.com> - 2016-02-03 04:07 -0200
      Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2016-02-06 12:54 -0800
        Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO INADA Naoki <songofacandy@gmail.com> - 2016-02-07 12:02 +0900
          Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-07 16:59 +1100
            Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-02-06 23:04 -0800
              Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-06 23:31 -0800
                Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-02-06 23:51 -0800
                  Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-07 18:58 +1100
                  Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2016-02-08 10:20 -0500
              Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2016-02-07 08:44 +0100
        Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-07 14:06 +1100
        Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-02-08 08:40 -0700
        Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-02-08 10:44 -0500
          Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-02-09 01:15 -0800
        Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-09 02:46 +1100
        Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-02-08 10:53 -0500
        Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Chris Warrick <kwpolska@gmail.com> - 2016-02-08 18:48 +0100
        Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO John Ladasky <john_ladasky@sbcglobal.net> - 2016-02-11 23:51 -0800
          Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2016-02-15 18:02 -0800
            Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-16 13:30 +1100
            Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO John Ladasky <john_ladasky@sbcglobal.net> - 2016-02-15 21:24 -0800
              Guido on python3 for beginners Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-17 00:51 -0800
                Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-18 17:47 +1100
                  Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2016-02-18 17:57 +1100
                  Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2016-02-17 22:59 -0800
                    Re: Guido on python3 for beginners "Sven R. Kunze" <srkunze@mail.de> - 2016-02-18 22:37 +0100
                  Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-02-18 02:00 -0500
                  Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 18:27 +1100
                    Re: Guido on python3 for beginners John Ladasky <john_ladasky@sbcglobal.net> - 2016-02-18 12:22 -0800
                  Re: Guido on python3 for beginners INADA Naoki <songofacandy@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 17:00 +0900
                  Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-02-18 03:40 -0500
                    Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-20 18:59 +1100
                  Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 20:57 +1100
                  Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Cem Karan <cfkaran2@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 05:57 -0500
                  Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 22:07 +1100
                  Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 04:25 -0800
                    Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Random832 <random832@fastmail.com> - 2016-02-18 10:51 -0500
                      Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-19 12:17 +1100
                        Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 19:39 -0800
                          Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2016-02-20 13:36 +1100
                            Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2016-02-20 00:37 -0800
                        Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2016-02-19 15:06 +0000
                      Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 19:32 -0800
                  Re: Guido on python3 for beginners Matt Wheeler <m@funkyhat.org> - 2016-02-18 16:44 +0000
              Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-02-17 08:39 -0800
            Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2016-02-18 22:14 +0100
              Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2016-02-19 08:54 +1100
            Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2016-02-18 21:07 -0700
              Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-02-19 02:18 -0800
    Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Wolfgang Maier <wolfgang.maier@biologie.uni-freiburg.de> - 2016-02-03 09:27 +0100
    Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Grobu <snailcoder@retrosite.invalid> - 2016-02-03 09:38 +0100
      Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2016-02-03 09:16 -0800
    Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Quivis <quivis@domain.invalid> - 2016-02-06 14:59 +0000
    Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2016-02-18 18:22 -0800
      Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2016-02-19 10:05 +0000
    Re: [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2016-02-19 23:15 -0500

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#103171 — Re: Guido on python3 for beginners

On Friday, February 19, 2016 at 6:48:12 AM UTC+5:30, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> 
> 
> But apart from that, I think that "teaching" versus "doing" language is a
> false dichotomy. Teaching languages should have a shallow learning curve
> (easy to get started and learn the language, easy discoverability).
> Production languages should have deep functionality and power. Those two
> are not *necessarily* opposed[1]. Good languages should have both: a
> shallow learning curve leading to deep functionality.
> 
> [1] Except in the trivial sense that the more you have to learn, the longer
> it will take.

Consider as hypothesis
L1: Needs 4 weeks to master
L2: Needs 4 years to manage (if you want to make it less hypothetical think C++)

Which would be more satisfying to a student?
[Not a hypothetical question: Some people like to go mountaineering/bungee-jumping etc
and breaks their necks.
Likewise Ive seen students who were so C++-happy they failed other courses!

I'd hazard you have forgotten what it feels like to be a student by some decades :-)

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#103232 — Re: Guido on python3 for beginners

On Fri, 19 Feb 2016 02:39 pm, Rustom Mody wrote:

> Consider as hypothesis
> L1: Needs 4 weeks to master

A language that only takes 4 weeks to master, starting from zero programming
experience, clearly doesn't include much in the way of features.


> L2: Needs 4 years to manage (if you want to make it less hypothetical
> think C++)

Do you mean 4 years to *master*?

Generally speaking, it takes 10 years of experience to become a master of a
complex skill. You might learn all the syntax of C++ in 4 years, but that
doesn't mean you have mastered the language :-)


> Which would be more satisfying to a student?

To be satisfying, a language needs to have a shallow enough learning curve
that the student can make good progress right from the beginning, and
enough features that they can actually do interesting things. Here's a
language that a student can learn in about one minute, because it only has
two features:

Assignment:

    LET x = 99

Printing:

    print x


But you can't do anything interesting with this language, so it is not
satisfying. On the other hand, here's "Hello World" in another language,
one which is Turing complete so it can do anything Python or C can do:

(=<`#9]~6ZY32Vx/4Rs+0No-&Jk)"Fh}|Bcy?`=*z]Kw%oG4UUS0/@-ejc(:'8dc

but the learning curve is steep enough that it will be frustrating rather
than interesting.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbolge




-- 
Steven

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#103252 — Re: Guido on python3 for beginners

On 02/19/2016 06:36 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Feb 2016 02:39 pm, Rustom Mody wrote:
>
[snip]

> But you can't do anything interesting with this language, so it is not
> satisfying. On the other hand, here's "Hello World" in another language,
> one which is Turing complete so it can do anything Python or C can do:
>
> (=<`#9]~6ZY32Vx/4Rs+0No-&Jk)"Fh}|Bcy?`=*z]Kw%oG4UUS0/@-ejc(:'8dc
>
> but the learning curve is steep enough that it will be frustrating rather
> than interesting.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malbolge
>

Somewhat OT, but speaking of "Hello World", check out:

http://www2.latech.edu/~acm/HelloWorld.shtml

It's a collection of "Hello World" programs in umpteen languages.
(Well, not really umpteen, but there are a lot of them.)   ;-)

      -=- Larry -=-

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#103198 — Re: Guido on python3 for beginners

On 2016-02-19, Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote:

> Pascal was easy to learn and powerful, but it made the mistake of not
> standardising on a few critical functions that production languages need,
> like strings. Nevertheless, for the first 10 or 15 years, Apple used a mix
> of Pascal and assembly to write not just the operating system but a whole
> lot of applications for the Macintosh. Anyone who says that Pascal is a toy
> language is just ignorant.

At one point, Pascal was quite popular for emedded systems
(e.g. microprocessor) development also.  One of my first projects out
of school back in the early 80's was working on cell-site radio
firmware (Zilog Z8000 uP).

There were a few small extensions to the standard langage to deal with
the fact it was low-level code running on bare metal, but it was quite
a nice language for writing stuff for small microprocessor-based
systems.  After you debugged everything, you could turn off
array-bounds-checking, and the extra overhead compared to something
like C vanished.

-- 
Grant Edwards               grant.b.edwards        Yow! HAIR TONICS, please!!
                                  at               
                              gmail.com            

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#103168 — Re: Guido on python3 for beginners

On Thursday, February 18, 2016 at 9:22:10 PM UTC+5:30, Random832 wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2016, at 07:25, Rustom Mody wrote:
> > My beef is somewhat different: viz that post 70s (Pascal) and 80s
> > (scheme) 
> > programming pedagogy has deteriorated with general purpose languages
> > replacing
> > 'teaching-purpose language' for teaching.
> 
> The flaw in this idea is right there in your post. Both languages you
> named are strongly tied to a single paradigm (procedural for Pascal, and
> functional for Scheme) which don't match the paradigm that real-world
> work is done in. 

Factually incorrect.
Scheme is as multi-paradigm as you can get -- SICP spends considerable time
building OO systems, machine architectures etc
Culturally is another matter -- scheme tends to draw FP aficionados as python 
seems to draw OO ones.  The languages do not mandate this

> Is there a new "teaching-purpose language"?

No And that's the deterioration in the programming edu-world

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#103135 — Re: Guido on python3 for beginners

On Thu, 18 Feb 2016 11:07 Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:

> By the way... For bash users, adding this to .bashrc may make venvs a
> bit easier to keep straight:
>
> checkdir() {
>     [ -n "$VIRTUAL_ENV" ] && ! [[ `pwd` =~ `dirname $VIRTUAL_ENV`* ]]
> && echo Deactivating venv $VIRTUAL_ENV... && deactivate
>     [ -z "$VIRTUAL_ENV" -a -d env ] && echo Activating venv
> `pwd`/env... && source env/bin/activate
> }
> PROMPT_COMMAND=checkdir
>
> (I'm more fluent in Python than in bash, so this is a bit ugly.)
>
> As soon as you change out of the directory that contains your venv,
> it'll be deactivated, so you can't accidentally run stuff in the
> "wrong" environment. And as soon as you change into a directory that
> contains an 'env' subdir, it'll activate it. (Also applies on first
> creation; as soon as "python3 -m venv env" returns, this will activate
> the env.)
>

This is a bad idea for the same reason enabling all magic comments in your
editor is a bad idea.
(rvm does this but confirms that the rvmrc it's about to activate is one
that you've previously approved, I wouldn't want to try to write a shell
function that did that though :)).

>

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#103057

Le mardi 16 février 2016 06:24:43 UTC+1, John Ladasky a écrit :
> 
> [...]  then decided to learn PyQt5.  [...]


Very nice toy.
Unfortunately, unusable for a serious work.

jmf

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#103149

Am 16.02.16 um 03:02 schrieb Rick Johnson:
> On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 1:51:35 AM UTC-6, John Ladasky wrote:
>> I like lazy evaluation.
>
> Well, it is a "Pythonic feature" no doubt.


?? I'm confused. Does Python have lazy evaluation? I thought that Python 
does eager evaluation. At least this snippet seems to confirm:

def arg():
	print("Evaluating arg")
	return None

def func(x):
	print("Evluating func")
	print(x)

func(arg())

If I run it, the output is:

Evaluating arg
Evluating func

and I think that with side effects, only eager evaluation is really 
predictable.

	Christian

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#103152

On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 8:14 AM, Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> wrote:
> Am 16.02.16 um 03:02 schrieb Rick Johnson:
>>
>> On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 1:51:35 AM UTC-6, John Ladasky wrote:
>>>
>>> I like lazy evaluation.
>>
>>
>> Well, it is a "Pythonic feature" no doubt.
>
>
>
> ?? I'm confused. Does Python have lazy evaluation? I thought that Python
> does eager evaluation. At least this snippet seems to confirm:
>
> def arg():
>         print("Evaluating arg")
>         return None
>
> def func(x):
>         print("Evluating func")
>         print(x)
>
> func(arg())
>
> If I run it, the output is:
>
> Evaluating arg
> Evluating func
>
> and I think that with side effects, only eager evaluation is really
> predictable.

Python's form of lazy evaluation comes in the form of functions that
return iterables, rather than concrete lists:

>>> def square(x):
...     print("Squaring %d..." % x)
...     return x*x
...
>>> squares = map(square, range(10))
>>> next(squares)
Squaring 0...
0
>>> next(squares)
Squaring 1...
1
>>> next(squares)
Squaring 2...
4

ChrisA

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#103172

On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Rick Johnson
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> WxPython is not ported either, much to my chagrin.

If wxPython "Classic" had just been ported to Python 3, I'm sure it
would be all done by now. But it was decided to rebuild wxPython from
the ground up instead.

Last I've heard, people generally seem to consider Phoenix beta-ready.
I understand that it's slow-going though because there's basically
only one maintainer and he has a day job.

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#103179

Le vendredi 19 février 2016 05:08:24 UTC+1, Ian a écrit :
> On Mon, Feb 15, 2016 at 7:02 PM, Rick Johnson
> <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:
> > WxPython is not ported either, much to my chagrin.
> 
> If wxPython "Classic" had just been ported to Python 3, I'm sure it
> would be all done by now. But it was decided to rebuild wxPython from
> the ground up instead.
> 
> Last I've heard, people generally seem to consider Phoenix beta-ready.
> I understand that it's slow-going though because there's basically
> only one maintainer and he has a day job.

I contributed to wxPython from version 2.1 up to version 2.8.
Then come the wxPython 2.9, which had the good idea to try
the unification of the ANSI build and the unicode build.
It stopped working correctly.
wxPhoenix suffered from the same design issue (visible
in the first few releases I tested. I doubt, it has
changed.)

I tried to explain...

jmf

PS Does it not remind you something ?

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#102417

On 03.02.2016 04:26, Rick Johnson wrote:
>
> ============================================================
>   [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO
> ============================================================
>
> A long, long time a ago, in a sleepy little Scandinavian
> village, somewhere outside of Stockholm, a wee little boy

... long long story

Just one question: do you really think the Netherlands are a part of 
Scandinavia and that Stockholm is their capital?

If so maybe you'll find this comforting:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/07/the-less-americans-know-about-ukraines-location-the-more-they-want-u-s-to-intervene/

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#102421

On 03/02/16 04:26, Rick Johnson wrote:
[ ... ]
> And many children came from the far and wide, and they
> would pet his snake, and they would play with his snake

Didn't know Pedobear had a biographer.

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#102434

Python is already dead.
She/he/it (?) died at the age / version 3.2 .

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#102587

On Tue, 02 Feb 2016 19:26:19 -0800, Rick Johnson wrote:

>  [STORY-TIME] THE BDFL AND HIS PYTHON PETTING ZOO

Take your off-topic crap and GTFO!

-- 
  _____  __ __ __ __ __ __   __
 ((   )) || || || \\ // ||  ((
  \\_/X| \\_// ||  \V/  || \_))
   Omnia paratus  *~*~*~*~*~*~*

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#103175

On 02/02/2016 07:26 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:

a bunch of garbage.

*sigh*

Time to update my procmail filters...

Anyone know one for deleting all responses to a troll post?

--
~Ethan~

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#103177

On 2016-02-19, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> On 02/02/2016 07:26 PM, Rick Johnson wrote:
>
> a bunch of garbage.
>
> *sigh*
>
> Time to update my procmail filters...
>
> Anyone know one for deleting all responses to a troll post?

Well for this particular imbecile, just blocking posts without any
lower-case letters in the Subject line would apparently help...

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#103235

On 2/18/2016 9:22 PM, Ethan Furman wrote:

> Anyone know one for deleting all responses to a troll post?

Thunderbird has 'ignore thread' on its context menu.

-- 
Terry Jan Reedy

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