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Is Python a commercial proposition ?

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  Is Python a commercial proposition ? lipska the kat <lipska@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-29 17:01 +0100
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Michael Hrivnak <mhrivnak@hrivnak.org> - 2012-07-29 13:13 -0400
      Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Bernd Waterkamp <Bernd-Waterkamp@web.de> - 2012-07-29 21:43 +0200
      Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Thomas 'PointedEars' Lahn <PointedEars@web.de> - 2012-07-29 23:47 +0200
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-29 18:43 +0100
    counting source lines (was: Is Python a commercial proposition ?) Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-07-29 19:49 +0200
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Brandon Schaffer <bschaffer13@gmail.com> - 2012-07-29 11:50 -0600
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2012-07-29 13:28 -0500
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Andrew Cooper <amc96@cam.ac.uk> - 2012-07-29 19:34 +0100
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-07-29 20:38 +0200
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-07-29 15:38 -0400
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Aled Evans <aled.r.evans@gmail.com> - 2012-07-29 12:54 -0700
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Rodrick Brown <rodrick.brown@gmail.com> - 2012-07-29 20:12 -0400
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-29 19:52 -0500
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Rodrick Brown <rodrick.brown@gmail.com> - 2012-07-29 22:31 -0400
      Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-29 20:03 -0700
      Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-07-30 17:45 -0700
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-07-30 08:07 +0200
      Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-07-30 14:09 +0000
        Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-31 02:06 +0000
          Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2012-07-30 21:45 -0700
            Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-07-31 07:27 +0200
            Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-31 06:29 +0000
              Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-07-31 08:04 -0400
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-30 17:52 +1000
      Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-07-30 09:06 -0400
        Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? lipska the kat <lipska@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-30 14:37 +0100
          Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2012-07-31 23:52 +1000
            Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? lipska the kat <lipska@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-31 18:27 +0100
              Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2012-08-01 09:31 +1000
              Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-01 09:06 +0100
                Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? lipska the kat <lipska@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-01 09:15 +0100
                  Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2012-08-01 21:59 +1000
                  Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-08-01 14:32 +0200
                  Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2012-08-02 13:10 +1000
                    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-02 09:17 +0100
                  Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-02 09:09 +0100
                  RE: Is Python a commercial proposition ? "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-08-03 06:51 +0000
                  Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Stefan Behnel <stefan_ml@behnel.de> - 2012-08-03 11:34 +0200
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2012-07-30 06:09 -0500
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-07-30 09:25 -0700
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2012-07-30 10:36 -0700
    RE: Is Python a commercial proposition ? "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-07-30 18:26 +0000
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Chris Withers <chris@python.org> - 2012-08-23 22:46 +0100
      Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-24 12:03 +0100
    Re: Is Python a commercial proposition ? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-08-24 11:46 -0700

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#26264

On Jul 29, 9:01 pm, lipska the kat <lip...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Pythoners
>
> Firstly, thanks to those on the tutor list who answered my questions.
>
> I'm trying to understand where Python fits into the set of commonly
> available, commercially used languages of the moment.
>
> My most recent experience is with Java. The last project I was involved
> with included 6775 java source files containing 1,145,785 lines of code.
> How do I know this? because I managed to cobble together a python script
> that walks the source tree and counts the lines of code. It ignores
> block and line comments and whitespace lines so I'm fairly confident
> it's an accurate total. It doesn't include web interface files (mainly
> .jsp and HTML) or configuration files (XML, properties files and what
> have you). In fact it was remarkably easy to do this in python which got
> me thinking about how I could use the language in a commercial environment.
>
> I was first attracted to python by it's apparent 'Object Orientedness' I
> soon realised however that by looking at it in terms of the language I
> know best I wasn't comparing like with like. Once I had 'rebooted the
> bioware' I tried to approach python with an open mind and I have to say
> it's growing on me.
>
> The questions I have are ...
>
> How is python used in the real world.
> What sized projects are people involved with
> Are applications generally written entirely in python or is it more
> often used for a subset of functionality.

I think when people talk of scripting this area tends to get missed:
(Or if someone mentioned it, I missed it :-) )
http://wiki.python.org/moin/AppsWithPythonScripting

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#26266

On 7/29/2012 5:12 PM Rodrick Brown said...
> Until the
> GIL is fixed I doubt anyone will seriously look at Python as an option
> for large enterprise standalone application development.

See openERP -- http://www.openerp.com/ -- they've been actively 
converting SAP accounts and have recently absorbed a couple SAP resellers.

Emile

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#26269

> I work in financials and the majority of our apps are developed in C++
> and Java yet all the tools that startup, deploy and conduct rigorous
> unit testing are implemented in Python or Shell scripts that wrap
> Python scripts.
> 
> Python definitely has its place in the enterprise however not so much
> for serious stand alone app development.
> 
> I'm starting to see Python used along side many statistical and
> analytical tools like R, SPlus, and Mathlab for back testing and
> prototype work, in a lot of cases I've seen quants and traders
> implement models in Python to back test and if successful converted to
> Java or C++.

Maybe this is true in *your* experience but *my* experience is very 
different. I have seen Python modules become modules that end up 
rewritten in C for performance reasons but I consider that part of the 
power of Python and an argument *for* Python.

Ramit
This email is confidential and subject to important disclaimers and
conditions including on offers for the purchase or sale of
securities, accuracy and completeness of information, viruses,
confidentiality, legal privilege, and legal entity disclaimers,
available at http://www.jpmorgan.com/pages/disclosures/email.  

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#27781

On 30/07/2012 03:31, Rodrick Brown wrote:
> Hence the reason why no one will seriously look at Python for none
> glue work or simple web apps.  When it comes to designing complex
> applications that need to exploit large multicore systems Python just
> isn't an option.
>
> Its still not possible to be a pure Python developer and find gainful
> employment today.

Oh come on, are you *actually* serious?

Pretty much everything you've said is nothing but inept bullshit.
Please stop.

Chris

-- 
Simplistix - Content Management, Batch Processing & Python Consulting
             - http://www.simplistix.co.uk

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#27791

On 23/08/12 22:46, Chris Withers wrote:
> On 30/07/2012 03:31, Rodrick Brown wrote:
>> Hence the reason why no one will seriously look at Python for none
>> glue work or simple web apps. When it comes to designing complex
>> applications that need to exploit large multicore systems Python just
>> isn't an option.
>>
>> Its still not possible to be a pure Python developer and find gainful
>> employment today.
>
> Oh come on, are you *actually* serious?
>
> Pretty much everything you've said is nothing but inept bullshit.
> Please stop.

OK, well excuse me for butting in but it's obvious from your website 
that you have some experience with Python in the 'real world' I'd be 
most interested to hear if you have experience of or have heard of 
Python being used in any of the following circumstances.

Critical Systems:

wikipedia does a better job than I on the definition of a critical 
system although I'm not suggesting that everything in this article 
refers to a potential software system but it's a good illustration.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-critical_system

Real time systems:

An example of a real time system in this context is
an odds arbitrage back end publishing to the WWW via a
collection of web services, of course this is just one possible 
interface, it could publish to another computer system or another HCI
This requirement of course implies a complete decoupling of view and 
implementation. For more on odds arbitrage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbitrage_betting

It's 'real time' because publishing incorrect odds could cost someone a 
great deal of money, the odds need to be available for manipulation by 
the arbitrage engine as soon as they appear on the relevant bookies 
website (in fact I've had them appearing _before_ this as I managed to 
process them before the bookies web site did :-).

http://www.python.org/about/success/#real-time has a few examples
but I'd be interested to hear 'from the horses mouth'

Again, wikipedia is your friend
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real-time_computing

What is the largest Python project you have experience of, you can use 
any metric you want, a simple KLOC, function point or cost analysis will 
be fine.

This is a genuine enquiry and not designed to 'diss' Python in any way.


Many thanks

lipska
-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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#27819

On Sunday, July 29, 2012 12:01:00 PM UTC-4, lipska the kat wrote:
> How is python used in the real world.

songza.com is pretty close to 100% python.  The only significant non-python code on the server side are mongodb, haproxy, and nginx.

> What sized projects are people involved with

We've got 102 KLOC in the application (i.e. code we wrote), plus another 104 KLOC in django and 337 KLOC of other installed packages (i.e. everything in our virtualenv's site-packages directory).

Those numbers are just the raw output of doing "find ... -name *.py | xargs wc -l", so they include blank lines and comments.  So, all told, roughly a half million lines of python code.

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