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Re: Python IDE/text-editor

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  Re: Python IDE/text-editor Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-17 02:13 +1000
    Re: Python IDE/text-editor rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-04-16 09:30 -0700
      Re: Python IDE/text-editor John Bokma <john@castleamber.com> - 2011-04-16 17:19 -0500
        Re: Python IDE/text-editor rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-04-16 19:04 -0700
          Re: Python IDE/text-editor John Bokma <john@castleamber.com> - 2011-04-16 22:22 -0500
            Re: Python IDE/text-editor rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-04-16 21:28 -0700
              Re: Python IDE/text-editor John Bokma <john@castleamber.com> - 2011-04-17 10:58 -0500
            Re: Python IDE/text-editor Bastian Ballmann <balle@chaostal.de> - 2011-04-17 10:35 +0200
              Re: Python IDE/text-editor John Bokma <john@castleamber.com> - 2011-04-17 11:03 -0500
            Re: Python IDE/text-editor Alec Taylor <alec.taylor6@gmail.com> - 2011-04-17 20:03 +1000
              Re: Python IDE/text-editor Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-04-17 21:09 +1000
                Re: Python IDE/text-editor Andrea Crotti <andrea.crotti.0@gmail.com> - 2011-04-17 14:24 +0200
                Re: Python IDE/text-editor sal migondis <salmig99@gmail.com> - 2011-04-17 08:50 -0700
              Re: Python IDE/text-editor John Bokma <john@castleamber.com> - 2011-04-17 11:07 -0500
      Re: Python IDE/text-editor Krzysztof Bieniasz <krzysztof.t.bieniasz@gmail.com> - 2011-04-16 23:12 +0000
        Re: Python IDE/text-editor rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2011-04-16 19:34 -0700
        Re: Python IDE/text-editor Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com> - 2011-04-17 13:05 -0700
          Re: Python IDE/text-editor Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2011-04-18 07:19 +1000
            Re: Python IDE/text-editor Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2011-04-17 17:46 -0500
    Re: Python IDE/text-editor Jorgen Grahn <grahn+nntp@snipabacken.se> - 2011-04-17 07:17 +0000
      Re: Python IDE/text-editor Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2011-04-17 18:20 +1000
      Re: Python IDE/text-editor harrismh777 <harrismh777@charter.net> - 2011-04-18 02:33 -0500

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#3330 — Re: Python IDE/text-editor

Based on the comments here, it seems that emacs would have to be the
editor-in-chief for programmers. I currently use SciTE at work; is it
reasonable to, effectively, bill my employer for the time it'll take
me to learn emacs? I'm using a lot of the same features that the OP
was requesting (multiple files open at once, etc), plus I like syntax
highlighting (multiple languages necessary - I'm often developing
simultaneously in C++, Pike, PHP, and gnu make, as well as Python).

My current "main editors" are SciTE when I have a GUI, and nano when I
don't (over ssh and such). Mastering emacs would definitely take time;
I'm not really sure if I can justify it ("Chris, what did you achieve
this week?" "I learned how to get emacs to make coffee.")...

Chris Angelico

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#3332

On Apr 16, 9:13 pm, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Based on the comments here, it seems that emacs would have to be the
> editor-in-chief for programmers. I currently use SciTE at work; is it
> reasonable to, effectively, bill my employer for the time it'll take
> me to learn emacs?

It takes a day or two to learn emacs.

It takes forever to set it up.

[How many shots of cocaine are are needed to de-addict a cocaine
addict? ]

> I'm using a lot of the same features that the OP
> was requesting (multiple files open at once, etc), plus I like syntax
> highlighting (multiple languages necessary - I'm often developing
> simultaneously in C++, Pike, PHP, and gnu make, as well as Python).
>
> My current "main editors" are SciTE when I have a GUI, and nano when I
> don't (over ssh and such). Mastering emacs would definitely take time;
> I'm not really sure if I can justify it ("Chris, what did you achieve
> this week?" "I learned how to get emacs to make coffee.")...
>
> Chris Angelico

:-)

You are being cute and tart.

But the problem is real:
1. emacs can do everything
2. It does everything badly
3. All the competition does it worse

Frankly Ive thought many times of switching to eclipse but the first
few screens send a chill (or something such) down my spine and I limp
back unhappily to emacs...

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#3351

rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes:

> On Apr 16, 9:13 pm, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Based on the comments here, it seems that emacs would have to be the
>> editor-in-chief for programmers. I currently use SciTE at work; is it
>> reasonable to, effectively, bill my employer for the time it'll take
>> me to learn emacs?
>
> It takes a day or two to learn emacs.

That's an extremely bold statement. I still haven't learned Emacs and
have read most of the Emacs manual, some parts twice.

Unless you mean openening a file, saving a file, and some basic cursor
movements.

> It takes forever to set it up.

If you mean to make work optimally for your way of editing, probably
true. You can keep fine tuning, adding/testing stuff, etc.


-- 
John Bokma                                                               j3b

Blog: http://johnbokma.com/    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/j.j.j.bokma
    Freelance Perl & Python Development: http://castleamber.com/

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#3364

On Apr 17, 3:19 am, John Bokma <j...@castleamber.com> wrote:
> rusi <rustompm...@gmail.com> writes:
> > On Apr 16, 9:13 pm, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Based on the comments here, it seems that emacs would have to be the
> >> editor-in-chief for programmers. I currently use SciTE at work; is it
> >> reasonable to, effectively, bill my employer for the time it'll take
> >> me to learn emacs?
>
> > It takes a day or two to learn emacs.
>
> That's an extremely bold statement. I still haven't learned Emacs and
> have read most of the Emacs manual, some parts twice.
>
> Unless you mean opening a file, saving a file, and some basic cursor
> movements.

Aren't there people (many in fact) who use notepad or equivalent to
write programs?
How many features do they use?
How long would it take to make a map of those same features in emacs?
And add a handful more to make the switchover worthwhile?

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#3367

rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes:

> On Apr 17, 3:19 am, John Bokma <j...@castleamber.com> wrote:
>> rusi <rustompm...@gmail.com> writes:
>> > On Apr 16, 9:13 pm, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> Based on the comments here, it seems that emacs would have to be the
>> >> editor-in-chief for programmers. I currently use SciTE at work; is it
>> >> reasonable to, effectively, bill my employer for the time it'll take
>> >> me to learn emacs?
>>
>> > It takes a day or two to learn emacs.
>>
>> That's an extremely bold statement. I still haven't learned Emacs and
>> have read most of the Emacs manual, some parts twice.
>>
>> Unless you mean opening a file, saving a file, and some basic cursor
>> movements.
>
> Aren't there people (many in fact) who use notepad or equivalent to
> write programs?
> How many features do they use?
> How long would it take to make a map of those same features in emacs?

Yeah, if you bring it down to open a file, save a file, and move the
cursor around, sure you can do that in a day or two (two since you have
to get used to the "weird" key bindings).

> And add a handful more to make the switchover worthwhile?

That's somewhat I did: I used TextPad a lot, and at first I looked for
how to do what I could in TextPad in Emacs (hence reading the book). But
that took longer than a day.

-- 
John Bokma                                                               j3b

Blog: http://johnbokma.com/    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/j.j.j.bokma
    Freelance Perl & Python Development: http://castleamber.com/

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#3370

On Apr 17, 8:22 am, John Bokma <j...@castleamber.com> wrote:
> rusi <rustompm...@gmail.com> writes:
> > On Apr 17, 3:19 am, John Bokma <j...@castleamber.com> wrote:
> >> rusi <rustompm...@gmail.com> writes:
> >> > On Apr 16, 9:13 pm, Chris Angelico <ros...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >> Based on the comments here, it seems that emacs would have to be the
> >> >> editor-in-chief for programmers. I currently use SciTE at work; is it
> >> >> reasonable to, effectively, bill my employer for the time it'll take
> >> >> me to learn emacs?
>
> >> > It takes a day or two to learn emacs.
>
> >> That's an extremely bold statement. I still haven't learned Emacs and
> >> have read most of the Emacs manual, some parts twice.
>
> >> Unless you mean opening a file, saving a file, and some basic cursor
> >> movements.
>
> > Aren't there people (many in fact) who use notepad or equivalent to
> > write programs?
> > How many features do they use?
> > How long would it take to make a map of those same features in emacs?
>
> Yeah, if you bring it down to open a file, save a file, and move the
> cursor around, sure you can do that in a day or two (two since you have
> to get used to the "weird" key bindings).

If all one seeks is 'notepad-equivalence' why use any key-binding?
All this basic ('normal') stuff that other editors do, emacs can also
do from menus alone.

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#3408

rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> writes:

[ Notepad -> Emacs ]
> If all one seeks is 'notepad-equivalence' why use any key-binding?
> All this basic ('normal') stuff that other editors do, emacs can also
> do from menus alone.

OK, true. Anyway, I highly doubt anyone using Notepad as an editor is
going to switch to Emacs to begin with :-D.

-- 
John Bokma                                                               j3b

Blog: http://johnbokma.com/    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/j.j.j.bokma
    Freelance Perl & Python Development: http://castleamber.com/

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#3377

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

Am Sat, 16 Apr 2011 22:22:19 -0500
schrieb John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>:

> Yeah, if you bring it down to open a file, save a file, and move the
> cursor around, sure you can do that in a day or two (two since you
> have to get used to the "weird" key bindings).

Sorry but learning the basic stuff doesnt take any longer than 10 to 30
minutes and if one doesnt want to learn the shortcuts one can use
GNU/Emacs GUI and click around.

Configuring it to do Python optimal could took some hours / days some
time ago, but now it just takes setting up Emacs for Python and you
have syntax highlighting, code templates, refactoring and
auto-completion support.

Chao

Balle

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#3409

Bastian Ballmann <balle@chaostal.de> writes:

> Am Sat, 16 Apr 2011 22:22:19 -0500
> schrieb John Bokma <john@castleamber.com>:
>
>> Yeah, if you bring it down to open a file, save a file, and move the
>> cursor around, sure you can do that in a day or two (two since you
>> have to get used to the "weird" key bindings).
>
> Sorry but learning the basic stuff doesnt take any longer than 10 to 30
> minutes and if one doesnt want to learn the shortcuts one can use
> GNU/Emacs GUI and click around.

My experience is different, but I am sure that we define basic stuff
different. Things like how copy paste works, deleting, and undo (and
redo!) will take certainly more than 10-30 minutes. Unless you don't
want to use those features, that is. Even if you do everything via the
menus (and who reads here is going to do that) there are still surprises
(where is redo?).

> Configuring it to do Python optimal could took some hours / days some
> time ago, but now it just takes setting up Emacs for Python and you
> have syntax highlighting, code templates, refactoring and
> auto-completion support.

Yeah, sure. And learning Python takes also just 5 days...

Like I wrote, I am still learning Emacs (and Python). And I don't think
I am more dense than you. Just more honest about learning ;-).

-- 
John Bokma                                                               j3b

Blog: http://johnbokma.com/    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/j.j.j.bokma
    Freelance Perl & Python Development: http://castleamber.com/

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#3387

Thanks for all the replies (I love the python mailing-list!)

I've tried all the IDEs/text-editors mentioned.

PyScripter is great, however is unmaintained thus doesn't support
64-bit :[ (and is a little buggy)
Also, it requires network connectivity, which could prove troublesome
on my locked-down Uni network (requires localhost for python shell)

DreamPIE isn't what I'm looking for.

Editra has a python plugin? - Excellent! — Got the plugin working...
is there a shortcut (e.g.: F9) for running the opened python script?

UliPad is quite good, however badly coded (a new console window opens
then closes each time I run a script)... I might fix that bug if I
ever get the time.

MonoDevelop doesn't seem to support Python (I pressed: "New Solution")

GEdit probably won't work from a USB, and the embedded console isn't
user friendly (you'd need to type: "import x.py" or whatever)

Emacs and vim are good, however I often find myself on a workstation
without direct console access. GVim leaves a lot aesthetically
desired. Also there's a learning-curve to both of them, whereas nano,
and all the text-editors/IDEs above are user-friendly. None I've found
to have a big learning curve (more about finding the right preference
to change in settings than anything else!)

Kate I haven't tried yet... it's currently downloading.

On Sun, Apr 17, 2011 at 3:05 AM, Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> wrote:
> On 4/16/2011 3:03 AM, Alec Taylor wrote:
>>
>> IDLE loses syntax highlighting annoyingly often
>
> Could you exlain?
> When does it do that with a file labelled .py?
>
> Terry Jan Reedy

Just randomly, sometimes on first save to a .py, other-times on files
that I've opened with a .py extension.

It loses all syntax highlighting!

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#3389

Alec Taylor <alec.taylor6@gmail.com> writes:

> I've tried all the IDEs/text-editors mentioned.

Great! Experimenting with them is valuable if you have the time.

> Emacs and vim are good, however I often find myself on a workstation
> without direct console access.

I don't understand this; both of those (unlike most of the less powerful
alternatives mentioned in this thread) allow operation via direct
windowed application, by remote windowed application, or by remote
text-mode application. What is is you think Emacs or Vim are lacking in
this regard, and what makes you expect it?

> GVim leaves a lot aesthetically desired. Also there's a learning-curve
> to both of them

They carry a lot of baggage from being decades old. But that speaks more
about the mercurial changes in user interfaces of other programs, and
the high value programmers who've already mastered a flexible tool place
on applying what they've already learned in as many future situations as
can be feasible.

Both Vim and Emacs are actively and passionately developed, their
interfaces are being refined all the time without dramatic overhauls
every few years, and that's a huge advantage of these two and is part of
what makes them the default choice of so many programmers.

> whereas nano, and all the text-editors/IDEs above are user-friendly.

As many others in this thread have said, the learning curve pays off in
access to a powerful general-purpose tool that you can apply to an
enormous range of programming tasks.

A reason Vim and Emacs survive while so many thousands of other options
rise and fall and are forgotten is in part because Vim and Emacs have
gained the maturity and critical mass of community support that ensures
you can do just about anything in them.

Even if you don't end up liking either of them, you should gain working
familiarity with at least one of Vim or Emacs. They are the closest
things the programming world has to a standard coding environment and
are the most likely to be available and acceptable to your peers where
no other familiar option exists.

-- 
 \                “I got fired from my job the other day. They said my |
  `\          personality was weird. … That's okay, I have four more.” |
_o__)                                       —Bug-Eyed Earl, _Red Meat_ |
Ben Finney

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#3393

Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> writes:

> As many others in this thread have said, the learning curve pays off in
> access to a powerful general-purpose tool that you can apply to an
> enormous range of programming tasks.
>
> A reason Vim and Emacs survive while so many thousands of other options
> rise and fall and are forgotten is in part because Vim and Emacs have
> gained the maturity and critical mass of community support that ensures
> you can do just about anything in them.
>
> Even if you don't end up liking either of them, you should gain working
> familiarity with at least one of Vim or Emacs. They are the closest
> things the programming world has to a standard coding environment and
> are the most likely to be available and acceptable to your peers where
> no other familiar option exists.
>

+1

For me simple too often translates to "very dumb" and "limited".
The only exception in editors I've found was textmate, simple and well
thought while very powerful and customizable. Too bad it was only for
OSX and virtually dead (another bad example of great commercial software abandoned).

But at the same time I think that everyone has to find its way.

When he'll find himself always doing the same stupid and annoying
actions because the editor is using is too dumb to have macros/snippets
(for example) it should be automatic to look for something else.

Some people are happy using a crappy and easy program though, I think
you can't really force or convince anyone...

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#3407

On Apr 17, 7:09 am, Ben Finney <ben+pyt...@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> Alec Taylor <alec.tayl...@gmail.com> writes:

[..]

> > whereas nano, and all the text-editors/IDEs above are user-friendly.

No they're not 'user-friendly'. They are a user's worst enemy.
What's
the point of a computer if all you can come up with is a typewriter
in
disguise? Back to the dark ages. I have not tried all of the above,
but
a quick peek at nano & imagining I would having to use it for
anything
beyond _entering_ text and crossing fingers I ever need to change
a single comma or fix a single typo sends shivers down my spine.

> As many others in this thread have said, the learning curve pays off

[..]

Ben, I agree wholeheartedly with the rest of your post, but in the
case
of Vi/Vim... what learning curve..? It takes an hour at most to do
the
Vim tutorial. Do it, say 3 times and read Bram Moolenaar's 'Seven
habits of effective editing' twice and within one week you are
already
editing (much) more efficiently and with a lot less frustration than
with
those supposedly 'user-friendly' editors. And contrary to Notepad and
its descendants your editing experience will keep improving. Now that
is the difference between a _real_ friend a passing acquaintance.

Sal.

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#3410

Alec Taylor <alec.taylor6@gmail.com> writes:

> Emacs and vim are good, however I often find myself on a workstation
> without direct console access.

Emacs and vim can also work in a GUI enviroment.

> GVim leaves a lot aesthetically desired.

Ditto for Emacs. It misses the bling bling. But are you really looking
at all those shiny GUI elements when editing? I've turned off the icon
bar in Emacs (pointless) and rarely use the menu if ever.

-- 
John Bokma                                                               j3b

Blog: http://johnbokma.com/    Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/j.j.j.bokma
    Freelance Perl & Python Development: http://castleamber.com/

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#3356

> It takes a day or two to learn emacs.
> 
> It takes forever to set it up.

Remember, Emacs is THE way. It's the light in the darkness, it'll save 
your soul and bring you happiness. Isn't it worth the trouble? :)

Seriously though, when I was setting my Emacs to work with Python I 
stumbled upon this:
http://pedrokroger.net/2010/07/configuring-emacs-as-a-python-ide-2/
Read it and you'll know everything you need to know -- at least to start 
with.

KTB

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#3365

On Apr 17, 4:12 am, Krzysztof Bieniasz
<krzysztof.t.bieni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > It takes a day or two to learn emacs.
>
> > It takes forever to set it up.
>
> Remember, Emacs is THE way. It's the light in the darkness, it'll save
> your soul and bring you happiness. Isn't it worth the trouble? :)
>
> Seriously though, when I was setting my Emacs to work with Python I
> stumbled upon this:http://pedrokroger.net/2010/07/configuring-emacs-as-a-python-ide-2/

Thanks: Thats a useful link (if it works :D -- I have to try it out)
And this just underscores my earlier point:
Getting emacs to work 'any-old-how' is trivial.
Getting it to work optimally is an unending task.

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#3425

On Sat, 2011-04-16 at 23:12 +0000, Krzysztof Bieniasz wrote:
> > It takes a day or two to learn emacs.
> > 
> > It takes forever to set it up.
> 
> Remember, Emacs is THE way. It's the light in the darkness, it'll save 
> your soul and bring you happiness. Isn't it worth the trouble? :)
> 
> Seriously though, when I was setting my Emacs to work with Python I 
> stumbled upon this:
> http://pedrokroger.net/2010/07/configuring-emacs-as-a-python-ide-2/
> Read it and you'll know everything you need to know -- at least to start 
> with.
> 
> KTB

No, it's not. Vim is THE way.

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#3431

Westley Martínez <anikom15@gmail.com> writes:

> On Sat, 2011-04-16 at 23:12 +0000, Krzysztof Bieniasz wrote:
> > Remember, Emacs is THE way. It's the light in the darkness, it'll save 
> > your soul and bring you happiness. Isn't it worth the trouble? :)
[…]
>
> No, it's not. Vim is THE way.

Clearly there is only one standard text editor, and that's ‘ed’
<URL:http://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed.msg>.

-- 
 \         “Of all classes the rich are the most noticed and the least |
  `\      studied.” —John Kenneth Galbraith, _The Age of Uncertainty_, |
_o__)                                                             1977 |
Ben Finney

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#3433

On 04/17/2011 04:19 PM, Ben Finney wrote:
>> No, it's not. Vim is THE way.
>
> Clearly there is only one standard text editor, and that's ‘ed’

While it's funny, I'm curious how many folks on c.l.p have done 
any/much python coding in ed.  I've had to do a bit on a router 
running an embedded Linux that had Python and ed, but no vi/vim. 
  I'm also glad I don't have to maintain that router any more, 
but I feel I earned my "ed" merit badge at that job :)

-tkc

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#3375

On Sat, 2011-04-16, Chris Angelico wrote:
> Based on the comments here, it seems that emacs would have to be the
> editor-in-chief for programmers. I currently use SciTE at work; is it
> reasonable to, effectively, bill my employer for the time it'll take
> me to learn emacs? I'm using a lot of the same features that the OP
> was requesting (multiple files open at once, etc), plus I like syntax
> highlighting (multiple languages necessary - I'm often developing
> simultaneously in C++, Pike, PHP, and gnu make, as well as Python).

Your editor seems popular, free, cross-platform and capable ... if you
already know it well, I can't see why you should switch.

Unless you're truly not productive in SciTE, but I'd have to watch
you use it for hours to tell.

(That should really be a new job title. Just as there are aerobics
instructors or whatever at the gyms to help you use the equipment
there safely and efficiently, there should be text editor instructors!)

/Jorgen

-- 
  // Jorgen Grahn <grahn@  Oo  o.   .  .
\X/     snipabacken.se>   O  o   .

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