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Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG!

Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Subject Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG!
References <7b97786a-2aaf-454c-8c3a-1c19d20d4345@googlegroups.com>
From "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.demon.co.uk>
Organization The Wildebestiary
Message-ID <op.w6ihgyq7a8ncjz@gnudebeest> (permalink)
Date 2013-11-13 23:42 +0000

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On Tue, 12 Nov 2013 02:06:09 -0000, Rick Johnson  
<rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> wrote:

> PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG!

That's not a PyMyth.  It's a CompSciMyth, or to be more accurate a good  
general Software Engineering guideline regardless of language.  Like all  
guidelines it can be broken, but people who break it should do so  
knowingly, aware that they have created potential problems for themselves.

> ============================================================
>  The denial of the 99%:
> ============================================================
> Python has globals, but we just can't admit it!

A different subject entirely, but no more accurately stated.

[snip]
> But even the "module level" globals can be accessed
> "globally" if the module they are contained in is imported
> everywhere.

Remember when I said that guidelines can be broken?

> Globals are justified when they are used to communicate
> information between scopes that otherwise were meant to be
> mutually exclusive. One good example would be package sub-
> modules.

Sometimes, yes.  As long as you don't mind not being thread-safe, etc,  
etc.  If you've designed your interface, you're probably fine.  If you've  
throw it together with globals because it's the easy way, you're about to  
find out why the guideline you're breaking is a good one.

>  "But Rick, even when we use globals, we don't need that many"
>
> Only if you consider the single package that represents your
> program, but what about the thousands of support libraries
> with millions of lines of code that work in the background
> to make your measly few thousand lines of code work?  What
> about all the globals that they have injected?

Didn't you just say that Python globals are really module-level globals?   
Isn't this a strawman you've already disallowed?  It sounds to me like  
you're complaining that Python is ahead of the curve here :-)

-- 
Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest Herder to the Masses

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Thread

PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-11 18:06 -0800
  Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2013-11-11 20:47 -0600
    Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-11 20:46 -0800
      Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-12 16:02 +1100
      Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Ricardo Aráoz <ricaraoz@gmail.com> - 2013-11-12 07:15 -0300
      Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-11-12 05:32 -0600
      Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-11-12 20:20 -0500
      Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2013-11-13 18:17 -0600
        Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 18:25 -0800
  Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! jongiddy <jongiddy@gmail.com> - 2013-11-12 06:12 -0800
    Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-12 07:05 -0800
      Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! jongiddy <jongiddy@gmail.com> - 2013-11-12 07:33 -0800
        Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-12 09:00 -0800
          Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-12 09:42 -0800
          Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-11-12 11:45 -0600
          Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! jongiddy <jongiddy@gmail.com> - 2013-11-12 14:41 -0800
            Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-12 18:45 -0800
              Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-11-12 21:22 -0600
              Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Andrew Cooper <root@127.0.0.1> - 2013-11-13 22:00 +0000
                Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 18:16 -0800
  Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-12 14:32 +0000
    Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 02:22 +1100
  Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.demon.co.uk> - 2013-11-13 23:42 +0000
    Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-13 23:57 +0000
    Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-14 01:09 +0000
      Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 19:22 -0800
        Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-14 14:29 +1100
          Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-11-13 23:33 -0500
            Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 20:40 -0800
            Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-14 15:53 +1100
            Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-14 06:25 +0000
          Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! unknown <unknown@unknown.com> - 2013-11-14 09:41 +0000
    Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 18:10 -0800
      Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-14 02:45 +0000
        Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 19:45 -0800
          Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-13 20:01 -0800
          Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-14 05:50 +0000
            Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-14 09:26 -0800
              Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-11-14 12:37 -0500
              Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-11-14 09:56 -0800
                Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-11-14 20:12 +0000
                Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-15 09:43 +1100
              Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-11-14 13:43 -0500
              Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-11-14 19:04 +0000
              Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-11-15 08:19 +0000
                Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2013-11-15 09:26 -0600
                Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-16 02:42 +1100
                Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2013-11-15 17:33 -0600
                Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Tim Daneliuk <tundra@tundraware.com> - 2013-11-15 17:33 -0600
                Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-11-15 20:01 -0800
                Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-16 15:19 +1100
                Re: PyMyth: Global variables are evil... WRONG! Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-11-16 15:14 +1100

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