Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.python > #71107

Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate

Show all headers | View raw

On 5/8/2014 8:41 AM, Roy Smith wrote:
> In article <mailman.9742.1399477705.18130.python-list@python.org>,
>   Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> thinking of python variables as having two parts -- names and values
>> -- really can help people who are struggling to learn the language.
>
> There's many levels of learning, and we see them all on this list.
>
> For people who are just learning programming, and are learning Python as
> their first language, we need to keep things simple.  These are the
> people who are still struggling to understand basic concepts such as
> algorithms, loops, and the most fundamental data structures.  For those
> people, talking about variables as a container to hold a value is the
> right level of abstraction.
>
> At some point, that model no longer fits reality well enough that it
> becomes a barrier to further learning.  When I write:
>
> def mutate(x, y):
>      x = 42
>      y[0] = 42
>
> x = 4
> y = [4]
>
> mutate(x, y)
> print x, y
>
> and run it, unless I really understand about name binding and argument
> passing, I'm going to be totally befuddled by the result.  At that
> point, I need to unlearn something I thought I understood, and that's
> really hard (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principles_of_learning#Primacy).

The "surprising" things can be demonstrated without using functions. 
Once assignment statements are mastered, the way argument passing works 
can be extrapolated. New programmers will have to further be taught 
about shadowing and scopes, while experienced programmers should already 
be up and running (until they try to get cute).

Of course everybody has to eventually learn about the special syntax 
usable in function definitions and function calls.

-- 
Neil Cerutti

Back to comp.lang.python | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-05-06 21:19 -0400
  Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-07 09:18 +0300
    Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-07 09:51 +0100
    Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-07 06:00 -0700
      Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-07 17:17 +0300
        Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 00:30 +1000
    Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 00:14 +1000
      Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-07 17:20 +0300
    Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> - 2014-05-07 11:48 -0400
      Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-07 14:31 -0500
        Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-08 05:57 +1000
          Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-08 00:15 +0300
            Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-07 16:35 -0500
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 01:27 +0000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 12:09 +1000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 03:41 +0000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2014-05-08 03:43 +0000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 17:34 -0500
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 01:11 +0000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Larry Hudson <orgnut@yahoo.com> - 2014-05-10 00:46 -0700
            Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-08 10:35 +1000
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 01:32 +0000
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-08 09:19 +0300
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-08 16:40 +1000
                Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-07 23:50 -0700
                Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-08 10:03 +0300
            Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-05-07 21:33 -0400
            Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Johannes Schneider <johannes.schneider@galileo-press.de> - 2014-05-08 09:26 +0200
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-09 00:54 +0000
            Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Joseph Martinot-Lagarde <joseph.martinot-lagarde@m4x.org> - 2014-05-08 10:07 +0200
            Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 18:14 +1000
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 13:22 +0000
            Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-08 18:34 +1000
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-08 12:43 +0300
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-08 21:14 +1000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-08 15:01 +0300
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-09 05:14 +1000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-08 14:50 -0700
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-09 00:02 +0000
                Re: The �  debate Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-05-09 13:10 +1200
                Re: The �  debate Ben Finney <ben@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-05-09 13:13 +1000
                Re: The �  debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 01:34 +0000
                Re: The �  debate Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 21:34 -0500
                Re: The �  debate Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-05-10 17:58 +1200
                Re: The � debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 17:10 +1000
                Re: The � debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 07:48 +0000
                Re: The � debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 18:01 +1000
                Re: The � debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-10 11:21 +0300
                Re: The � debate Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 02:05 -0700
                Re: The � debate Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-10 12:30 -0700
                Re: The � debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-10 11:18 +0300
                Re: The � debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-10 09:31 +0000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 13:18 +0000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 23:46 +1000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 14:22 +0000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 00:51 +1000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 16:04 +0000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 02:10 +1000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-05-08 21:02 -0400
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-09 01:32 +0000
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-08 22:21 -0400
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 12:31 +1000
                Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 22:40 -0700
                Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 15:51 +1000
                Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 07:09 -0700
                Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-10 00:29 +1000
                Re: The "does Python have variables?" debate Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 09:07 -0700
                Re: The “does Python have variables?â€瑩 debate Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-05-09 19:51 -0400
                Re: The “does Python have variables?â€瑩 debate Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-10 01:03 +0100
                Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-10 09:42 -0400
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-10 14:31 -0400
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 01:17 -0500
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 00:01 -0700
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 07:09 +0000
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Tomasz Rola <rtomek@ceti.pl> - 2014-05-11 18:09 +0200
                Re: Fortran Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-11 19:27 +0300
                Re: Fortran Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-11 13:51 -0400
                Re: Fortran Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-12 04:08 +1000
                Re: Fortran Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 23:51 +0000
                Re: Fortran Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-12 01:27 +0100
                Re: Fortran Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-12 02:28 +0000
                Re: Fortran Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-12 10:05 +0100
                Re: Fortran Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-05-12 20:52 -0400
                Re: Fortran Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-11 11:05 -0700
                Re: Fortran Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-12 04:33 +1000
                Re: Fortran Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-11 14:43 -0400
                Re: Fortran Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-11 23:15 +0000
                Re: Fortran MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-05-12 00:51 +0100
                Re: Fortran Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-11 20:14 -0400
                Re: Fortran alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-05-12 14:14 +0000
                Re: Fortran Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-12 01:11 +0000
                Re: Fortran Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2014-05-11 23:27 -0400
                Re: Fortran Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-05-12 14:07 +0000
                Re: Fortran Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-05-11 21:12 -0400
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-12 02:42 +1000
                Re: Fortran Tomasz Rola <rtomek@ceti.pl> - 2014-05-11 20:04 +0200
                Re: Fortran Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-12 04:12 +1000
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-05-11 19:05 +0200
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 13:54 -0500
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-12 04:59 +1000
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 14:14 -0500
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-29 14:06 +0000
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Peter Pearson <ppearson@nowhere.invalid> - 2014-05-29 17:53 +0000
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-05-11 23:10 -0400
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 23:10 -0500
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-11 23:26 -0500
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-12 14:53 +1000
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-05-12 10:44 +0200
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 00:33 -0500
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-13 05:48 +0000
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 00:55 -0500
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 15:56 +1000
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-13 09:34 +0000
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 20:00 +1000
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 03:44 -0700
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 20:50 +1000
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2014-05-13 02:31 -0400
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-13 07:22 +0000
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-13 07:16 -0400
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 21:21 +1000
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-13 14:42 +0100
                Re: Fortran (Was: The "does Python have variables?" debate) Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2014-05-13 07:42 -0400
                Re: Fortran Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-05-13 19:33 +0200
                Re: Fortran Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-13 22:57 +0300
                Re: Fortran Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-14 00:10 +0000
                Re: Fortran Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-05-13 21:43 -0600
                Re: Fortran Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-14 07:35 +0300
                Re: Fortran Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-14 06:58 +0000
                Re: Fortran Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-14 11:46 +0300
                Re: Fortran Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-05-14 23:05 +0000
                struct.unpack: why 's' fmt char convert to bytestring GuoChao <cx63@outlook.com> - 2014-05-15 20:34 +0800
                Re: struct.unpack: why 's' fmt char convert to bytestring Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-05-15 09:49 -0400
                Re: struct.unpack: why 's' fmt char convert to bytestring MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-05-15 15:47 +0100
                Re: Fortran Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2014-05-14 15:13 +0200
                Re: Fortran albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-05-29 14:26 +0000
                Re: Fortran Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-29 17:50 +0300
                Re: Fortran Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-30 00:58 +1000
                Re: Fortran Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-29 18:09 +0300
                Re: Fortran Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-29 17:57 +0000
                Re: Fortran Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-29 21:55 +0300
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-09 09:13 +0100
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 08:06 -0600
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-09 00:13 +1000
            Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-05-08 15:21 -0400
              Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-08 23:06 +0300
                Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-08 15:36 -0700
            Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-08 17:05 -0700
            Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-09 01:47 +0100
      Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-05-08 00:57 +0000
      Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-05-08 08:41 -0400
        Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-05-08 22:54 +1000
        Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-08 06:18 -0700
          Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-08 17:03 +0300
            Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-05-08 16:09 -0700
        Re: The “does Python have variables?” debate "Neil D. Cerutti" <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2014-05-08 10:47 -0400

csiph-web