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Re: unicode as valid naming symbols

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Date Tue, 1 Apr 2014 21:58:14 +1100
Subject Re: unicode as valid naming symbols
From Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
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On Tue, Apr 1, 2014 at 9:37 PM, Antoon Pardon
<antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:
> Python also uses symbols for names of operations, like '+'. And when
> someone suggested python might consider increasing the number of
> operations and gave some symbols for those extra operations, nobody
> suggested that would make python unreadable, though it would be far
> more like the path taken by APL then what we are discussing now.

Actually, people did. But mainly the thread (look up "Time we switched
to unicode?") went off looking at how hard it'd be to type those
operators, and therefore the more serious point that there would
either be hard-to-type language elements or duplicate syntactic tokens
("lambda" as well as "λ", etc). That isn't an issue with names,
because any name has only one, well, name. If you choose to use both
"alpha" and "α" as names, that's fine, and they're distinct names. You
can make your code unreadable, and it doesn't impact my code at all.
Language-level features like operators have stronger concerns.

But because, in the future, Python may choose to create new operators,
the simplest and safest way to ensure safety is to put a boundary on
what can be operators and what can be names; Unicode character classes
are perfect for this. It's also possible that all Unicode whitespace
characters might become legal for indentation and separation (maybe
they are already??), so obviously they're ruled out as identifiers;
anyway, I honestly do not think people would want to use U+2007 FIGURE
SPACE inside a name. So if we deny whitespace, and accept letters and
digits, it makes good sense to deny mathematical symbols so as to keep
them available for operators. (It also makes reasonable sense to
*permit* mathematical symbols, thus allowing you to use them for
functions/methods, in the same way that you can use "n", "o", and "t",
but not "not"; but with word operators, the entire word has to be used
as-is before it's a collision - with a symbolic one, any instance of
that symbol inside a name will change parsing entirely. It's a
trade-off, and Python's made a decision one way and not the other.)

ChrisA

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Thread

unicode as valid naming symbols Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-25 13:30 -0500
  Re: unicode as valid naming symbols wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-03-25 11:52 -0700
    Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-25 14:24 -0500
    Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-25 19:16 -0700
  Re: unicode as valid naming symbols MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-03-25 19:24 +0000
    Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-25 14:29 -0500
      Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-25 21:48 +0200
        Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2014-03-25 14:54 -0500
        Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2014-03-26 09:16 +1100
      Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-25 13:49 -0600
      Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-25 15:29 -0500
      Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-03-25 15:47 -0700
      Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-25 23:58 +0000
        Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-27 10:28 -0500
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-27 08:51 -0700
            Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-27 11:03 -0500
              Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-03-28 12:45 +1300
            Re: unicode as valid naming symbols MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-03-27 17:17 +0000
              Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-27 10:53 -0700
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-27 10:22 -0600
            Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-27 10:41 -0700
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-28 03:23 +1100
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-03-31 11:55 +0200
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-31 11:40 -0600
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-31 13:02 -0500
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-31 12:10 -0600
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-03-31 21:31 +0200
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-03-31 16:12 -0400
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-03-31 16:15 -0400
            Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-31 23:34 +0300
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-31 18:47 -0600
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols David Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2014-03-31 23:58 -0400
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols David Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 00:11 -0400
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-04-01 10:19 +0200
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 03:18 -0600
            Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-01 12:32 +0300
              Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 03:58 -0600
                Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-01 15:02 +0300
                Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 23:54 +1100
                Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-01 16:16 +0300
                Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-02 00:32 +1100
                Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-01 18:59 +0300
                Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 19:58 -0700
                Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 20:16 -0700
                Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-02 08:55 +0300
              Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 21:39 +1100
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-04-01 12:37 +0200
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 21:58 +1100
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-04-01 13:59 +0200
            Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-04-01 08:29 -0400
              Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-02 00:08 +1100
                Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 06:34 -0700
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-02 00:00 +1100
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-04-01 09:33 -0400
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-02 00:44 +1100
            Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 06:58 -0700
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 09:53 -0600
      Re: unicode as valid naming symbols MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-03-26 02:56 +0000
      Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-26 14:09 +1100
      Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-03-26 09:25 +0100
      Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-03-26 09:52 +0100
      Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-26 10:37 -0600
      Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-03-27 10:36 +0100
        Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-27 08:10 -0700
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-27 10:34 -0500
          Re: unicode as valid naming symbols random832@fastmail.us - 2014-03-28 14:55 -0400
            Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-28 22:00 -0700
              Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-29 16:12 +1100
              Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-29 16:32 +1100
              Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-03-29 14:11 -0400
              Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-30 09:01 +1100
                Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-03-30 19:16 +1300
    Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-25 14:29 -0500
  Re:unicode as valid naming symbols Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-03-25 15:45 -0400
  Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-03-25 22:26 -0400

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