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| From | Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> |
| Date | Mon, 31 Mar 2014 18:47:48 -0600 |
| Subject | Re: unicode as valid naming symbols |
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On Mon, Mar 31, 2014 at 1:31 PM, Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote: > Op 31-03-14 19:40, Ian Kelly schreef: >> That was an exaggeration on my part. It wouldn't affect my job, as I >> wouldn't expect to ever actually have to maintain anything like the >> above. My greater point though is that it damages Python's >> readability for no actual gain in my view. There is nothing useful >> you can do with a name that is the U+1F4A9 character that you can't do >> just as easily with alphanumeric identifiers like pile_of_poo (or >> куча_фекалий if one prefers; that's auto-translated, so don't blame me >> if it's a poor translation). The kinds of symbols that we're talking >> about here aren't part of any writing systems, and so to incorporate >> them in *names* as if they were is an abuse of Unicode. > > Your argument doesn't has much weight. First of all it can be used > for just restricting names to the ascii range. I disagree. Non-ASCII written names are useful to anybody who prefers not to do all their programming in English. > Second of all I > think a good chosen symbolic name can be more readable than a > name in a character set you are not familiar with. A good chosen > symbol will evoke a meaning with a lot of people. A name in a > character set you are not familiar with is just gibberish to > you. Well, this is the path taken by APL. It has its supporters. It's not known for being readable. >> I don't think the comparisons to decorators and the if-else operator >> are apt. > > I didn't make such a comparison. I just noted the arguments against > were similar. That's the comparison to which I was referring. >> First, because while those may degrade readability, they do >> so in a constrained way. A decorator application is just the @ symbol >> and an identifier. > > And if abused, can totally change the working of your function. There > is no guarantee that the function returned, has any relation with the > original function. If that can't be a night mare for readability, > I don't know what is. As Terry Reedy noted, this has nothing to do with the decorator syntax, so it isn't much of an argument against having such syntax. >> The if-else is just three expressions separated by >> keywords. > > Yes but if used unrestrained in arbitrary expressions will make those > expressions hard to understand. I don't disagree. I hardly ever use it myself, certainly only if it can fit comfortably into one line, which is rare. But it's still quite limited in syntactic scope. >> In the case of arbitrary Unicode identifiers, we're talking >> about approximately doubling the number of different characters (out >> of a continuously growing set) that could be used, many of which are >> easily confused with other characters. Of course the potential for >> confusion already exists, but that's no justification for aggravating >> it. > > So what if we double the number of different characters? I don't care > about the number of them, I care about how meaningful they are. And > as you say confusion is already possible. A good programmer knows > how to deal with such a possible confusion, that the number of > cases increases, doesn't need to be a problem for those that care > about this. So tell me then, how would you deal with it? In the case of script identifiers, it's often not hard to discern from context whether a particular character is e.g. a Latin h or a Cyrillic һ. Assuming the original author wasn't being intentionally obfuscatory, if the rest of the identifier is Cyrillic then the character is probably also Cyrillic. If it's a one-character identifier, then hopefully the rest of the module is consistent and you can guess from that. If the identifier in question is just one symbol though, then you have a lot less context. > >> Second, at least in the case of decorators, while I don't dispute that >> they can harm readability, I think that in the majority of cases they >> actually help it. > > But that is not a fair comparison now, is it. What you are doing here > is comparing actual use, to a worst case doom scenario. I contend that there is no scenario with arbitrary Unicode identifiers where readability is improved.
Back to comp.lang.python | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread
unicode as valid naming symbols Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-25 13:30 -0500
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-03-25 11:52 -0700
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-25 14:24 -0500
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-25 19:16 -0700
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-03-25 19:24 +0000
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-25 14:29 -0500
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-25 21:48 +0200
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2014-03-25 14:54 -0500
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Cameron Simpson <cs@zip.com.au> - 2014-03-26 09:16 +1100
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-25 13:49 -0600
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-25 15:29 -0500
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-03-25 15:47 -0700
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-25 23:58 +0000
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-27 10:28 -0500
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-27 08:51 -0700
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-27 11:03 -0500
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-03-28 12:45 +1300
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-03-27 17:17 +0000
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-27 10:53 -0700
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-27 10:22 -0600
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-27 10:41 -0700
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-28 03:23 +1100
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-03-31 11:55 +0200
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-31 11:40 -0600
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-31 13:02 -0500
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-31 12:10 -0600
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-03-31 21:31 +0200
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-03-31 16:12 -0400
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-03-31 16:15 -0400
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-31 23:34 +0300
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-31 18:47 -0600
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols David Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2014-03-31 23:58 -0400
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols David Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 00:11 -0400
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-04-01 10:19 +0200
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 03:18 -0600
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-01 12:32 +0300
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 03:58 -0600
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-01 15:02 +0300
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 23:54 +1100
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-01 16:16 +0300
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-02 00:32 +1100
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-01 18:59 +0300
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 19:58 -0700
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 20:16 -0700
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-02 08:55 +0300
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 21:39 +1100
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-04-01 12:37 +0200
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 21:58 +1100
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-04-01 13:59 +0200
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-04-01 08:29 -0400
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-02 00:08 +1100
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 06:34 -0700
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-02 00:00 +1100
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-04-01 09:33 -0400
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-02 00:44 +1100
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 06:58 -0700
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-04-01 09:53 -0600
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-03-26 02:56 +0000
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-26 14:09 +1100
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-03-26 09:25 +0100
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-03-26 09:52 +0100
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-26 10:37 -0600
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2014-03-27 10:36 +0100
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-27 08:10 -0700
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-03-27 10:34 -0500
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols random832@fastmail.us - 2014-03-28 14:55 -0400
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-28 22:00 -0700
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-29 16:12 +1100
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-29 16:32 +1100
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-03-29 14:11 -0400
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-30 09:01 +1100
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-03-30 19:16 +1300
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-25 14:29 -0500
Re:unicode as valid naming symbols Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-03-25 15:45 -0400
Re: unicode as valid naming symbols Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-03-25 22:26 -0400
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