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Re: Python is readable

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Date Tue, 20 Mar 2012 15:28:25 -0400
Subject Re: Python is readable
From Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com>
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>> This is one of my gripes with the dogmatic application of the "break it
>> into multiple statements" mantra of Python.
>
> I must admit I don't recognise that one, unless you're talking about "not
> everything needs to be a one liner".
> ...
> Perhaps you could give some examples (actual or contrived) of stuff where
> "breaking it into multiple statements" is a bad thing?

One example is performing a series of transformations on a collection
of data, with the intent of finding an element of that collection that
satisfies a particular criterion.  If you separate out the individual
transformations, you need to understand generators or you will waste
space and perform many unnecessary calculations.  If you only ever do
a single transformation with a clear conceptual meaning, you could
create a "master transformation function," but what if you have a
large number of potential permutations of that function?  What if you
are composing three or four functions, each of which is conditional on
the data?  If you extract things from a statement and assign them
somewhat arbitrary names, you've just traded horizontal bloat for
vertical bloat (with a net increase in volume), while forcing a reader
to scan back and forth to different statements to understand what is
happening.

To steal a line from Einstein, "Make things as simple as possible, but
not simpler"

>> I agree, docstrings/code comments are a pretty obvious indication that
>> code (as it exists currently) fails as a human communication medium.
>
>
> The fact that scientific journal articles start with a documentation string
> called an abstract does not indicate that scientific English fails as a
> human communication medium. Function docstrings say what the function does
> and how to use it without reading the code. They can be pulled out and
> displayed elsewhere. They also guide the reading of the code. Abstracts
> serve the same functions.

A paper, with topic introduction, methods exposition, data/results
description and discussion is a poor analog to a function.  I would
compare the abstract of a scientific paper to the overview section of
a program's documentation.  The great majority of the docstrings I see
are basically signature rehashes with added type information and
assertions, followed by a single sentence English gloss-over.  If the
code were sufficiently intuitive and expressive, that would be
redundant.  Of course, there will always be morbidly obese functions
and coders that like to wax philosophical or give history lessons in
comments.

Also, because of Sphinx, it is very common in the Python community
weave documents and code together in a way that is convenient for
authors but irritating for readers.  I personally would prefer not to
have to scroll past 100 lines of a tutorial with examples, tests and
what not in order to go from one function to another.  It would be
really awesome if everyone used links to that material in docstrings,
and the default sphinx theme created an inline collapsible iframe that
included that material for the HTML version.  Don't get me wrong, I
adore Sphinx, the problem here is people who are lazy or don't know
the right way to structure docs.

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Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-15 00:34 +0100
  Re: Python is readable Arnaud Delobelle <arnodel@gmail.com> - 2012-03-14 23:54 +0000
  Re: Python is readable Tony the Tiger <tony@tiger.invalid> - 2012-03-14 19:18 -0500
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    Re: Python is readable Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-03-14 20:02 -0700
      Re: Python is readable alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-03-14 23:23 -0700
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                Re: Python is readable Alec Taylor <alec.taylor6@gmail.com> - 2012-03-16 03:01 +1100
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                Re: Python is readable Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2012-03-15 14:28 +0000
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                Re: Python is readable Arnaud Delobelle <arnodel@gmail.com> - 2012-03-15 23:00 +0000
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                Re: Python is readable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-15 23:58 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-16 12:41 +0100
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                Re: Python is readable Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2012-03-15 15:13 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-03-15 21:43 +0200
              Re: Python is readable Alec Taylor <alec.taylor6@gmail.com> - 2012-03-16 01:17 +1100
              Re: Python is readable Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2012-03-15 14:23 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-15 15:30 +0100
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                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-15 16:18 +0100
                Re: Python is readable Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2012-03-15 16:17 -0600
                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-16 00:32 +0100
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-16 03:55 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-16 13:10 +0100
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-16 16:48 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2012-03-16 17:39 -0600
                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-17 22:22 +0100
                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-17 20:59 +0100
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-18 08:20 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-17 22:28 +0100
                Re: Python is readable Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2012-03-17 17:04 -0600
                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-19 12:15 +0100
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-19 11:57 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-03-18 11:42 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-18 01:36 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-19 12:34 +0100
                Re: Python is readable Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 16:56 +1100
                Re: Python is readable MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-03-31 18:27 +0100
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-16 01:48 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-15 16:05 +0100
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                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-15 23:52 +0000
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                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-16 13:36 +0100
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                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-16 13:03 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2012-03-16 13:08 +0000
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                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-17 21:54 +0100
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                Re: Python is readable Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-03-17 01:09 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2012-03-19 11:26 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-19 11:51 +0000
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                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-17 21:23 +0100
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-18 01:46 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-19 12:44 +0100
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-19 15:27 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-21 00:27 +0100
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                Re: Python is readable Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2012-03-16 09:30 +0000
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              Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-19 15:33 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-19 13:37 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-03-20 12:20 +0000
          Re: Python is readable alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-03-18 20:15 -0700
            Re: Python is readable Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2012-03-18 21:14 -0700
          Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-20 12:55 -0400
            Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-20 17:48 +0000
          Re: Python is readable Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-03-20 14:09 -0400
          Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-20 15:28 -0400
            Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-21 00:22 +0000
              Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-20 18:28 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-03-21 13:28 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-20 19:44 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-21 15:16 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-20 21:58 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-21 16:40 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-20 23:52 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-21 17:59 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Chris Rebert <clp2@rebertia.com> - 2012-03-21 00:16 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 00:57 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-21 19:15 +1100
                Re: Re: Python is readable Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-03-21 11:22 -0500
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 09:30 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-21 14:06 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 18:35 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-22 08:56 +0000
                Re: Python is readable (OT) Jon Clements <joncle@googlemail.com> - 2012-03-22 04:18 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-22 08:47 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-22 17:18 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-22 14:26 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-03-29 13:44 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-29 14:37 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-30 01:42 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-29 22:26 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-30 03:36 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 00:38 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-30 10:47 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 09:46 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 03:20 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 14:15 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2012-03-30 20:30 +0000
                Re: Python is readable alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-04-01 20:38 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 05:29 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 15:55 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 07:20 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-30 22:07 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-04-03 08:06 +1000
                Re: Python is readable Dan Sommers <dan@tombstonezero.net> - 2012-03-30 16:51 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 16:58 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 08:45 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 19:01 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-03-31 00:03 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 19:05 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 10:43 -0400
                Re: Python is readable rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-03-30 11:17 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-30 09:02 -0700
                Re: Python is readable alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-04-01 20:30 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-04-01 21:01 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-29 23:44 -0700
                RE: Python is readable "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-03-30 16:40 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-30 00:27 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 06:08 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 00:17 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-22 10:29 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-22 09:12 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-22 17:44 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-22 19:42 -0700
                Re: Python is readable rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-03-22 20:20 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-22 21:16 -0700
                Re: Python is readable MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-03-23 04:43 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-22 23:58 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 00:20 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-22 08:33 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 06:21 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-22 15:33 -0400
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 06:48 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-03-23 06:49 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-21 23:34 +0000
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-21 17:54 -0700
                Re: Python is readable Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 17:25 +1100
                Re: Python is readable Steve Howell <showell30@yahoo.com> - 2012-03-31 09:59 -0700
              Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-21 00:55 -0400
          Re: Python is readable Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-03-20 16:01 -0400
          Re: Python is readable Nathan Rice <nathan.alexander.rice@gmail.com> - 2012-03-20 16:34 -0400
            Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-21 00:01 +0000
          Re: Python is readable Lie Ryan <lie.1296@gmail.com> - 2012-03-31 17:15 +1100
  Re: Python is readable Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-03-15 13:51 -0400
  Re: Python is readable Arnaud Delobelle <arnodel@gmail.com> - 2012-03-15 20:54 +0000
    Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-16 02:03 +0000
  Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-16 01:53 +0000
    Re: Python is readable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-03-16 02:16 +0000
    Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-16 13:55 +0100
      Re: Python is readable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-03-16 16:25 +0000
        Re: Python is readable Kiuhnm <kiuhnm03.4t.yahoo.it> - 2012-03-16 17:58 +0100
        RE: Python is readable "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com> - 2012-03-16 17:01 +0000
  Re: Python is readable alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2012-03-18 18:19 +0000

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