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Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps

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On Mon, Oct 7, 2013 at 4:50 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Oct 2013 15:47:26 -0700, Mark Janssen wrote:
>> I challenge you to get
>> down to the machine code in scheme and formally describe how it's doing
>> both.
>
> For which machine?

Right, I should stop assuming a modern implementation of vonNeumann
architecture (even though that, too, is ambiguous) since I'm talking
about theory, but yet it is relevant.  My demarcation point for
arguments between "the scheme way" and other procedural languages
(which, apart from Pascal variants, I blithely all "the C way") gets
down to differing models of computation which shouldn't get conflated,
even though everyone thinks and lumps it all as "computation".  They
simply can't get *practically* translated between one and the other,
even though they are *theoretically* translated between each other all
the time.  Humans, of course know how to translate, but that doesn't
count from the pov of computer *science*.

> Frankly, asking somebody to *formally* describe a machine code
> implementation strikes me as confused. Normally formal descriptions are
> given in terms of abstract operations, often high level operations,
> sometimes *very* high level, and rarely in terms of low-level "flip this
> bit, copy this byte" machine code operations. I'm not sure how one would
> be expected to generate a formal description of a machine code
> implementation.

It's like this: there *should* be one-to-one mappings between the
various high-level constructs to the machine code, varying only
between different chips (that is the purpose of the compiler after
all), yet for some operations, in languages like scheme, well... I
cannot say what happens...  hence my challenge.

> But even putting that aside, even if somebody wrote such a description,
> it would be reductionism gone mad. What possible light on the problem
> would be shined by a long, long list of machine code operations, even if
> written using assembly mnemonics?

Only that you've got a consistent, stable (and therefore,
formalizable) translation from your language to the machine.  That's
all.  Everything else is magic.  Do you know that the Warren
Abstraction Engine used to power the predicate logic in Prolog into
machien code for a VonNeumann machine is so complex, no one has
understood it (or perhaps even verified it)?   One hardly knows where
these things originate.  But here it gets into dark arts best not
entered into too deeply.  It will turn you mad, like that guy in the
movie "pi".

-- 
MarkJ
Tacoma, Washington

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Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-10-01 17:30 -0400
  Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-10-01 22:16 -0700
    Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2013-10-02 10:23 +0200
      Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 06:29 -0700
    Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Ravi Sahni <ganeshsahni07@gmail.com> - 2013-10-03 22:57 +0530
      Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-10-04 03:52 -0700
  Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2013-10-02 10:17 +0200
    Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 11:59 -0700
    Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-02 14:05 -0700
      Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2013-10-04 11:49 +0200
        Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-04 10:51 +0000
        Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-10-04 18:32 -0400
          Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2013-10-07 19:15 +0200
            Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-10-07 19:57 +0200
              Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2013-10-08 10:56 +0200
                Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2013-10-08 12:49 +0300
            Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-10-07 16:42 -0400
            Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps random832@fastmail.us - 2013-10-07 17:19 -0400
              Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Alain Ketterlin <alain@dpt-info.u-strasbg.fr> - 2013-10-08 10:41 +0200
            Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-10-07 22:39 +0100
            Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org> - 2013-10-07 18:03 -0400
            Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-07 15:47 -0700
              Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-07 23:50 +0000
                Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-07 17:24 -0700
                Formal-ity and the Church-Turing thesis rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-10-07 20:17 -0700
                Re: Formal-ity and the Church-Turing thesis Ravi Sahni <ganeshsahni07@gmail.com> - 2013-10-08 10:46 +0530
                Re: Formal-ity and the Church-Turing thesis rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-10-07 22:44 -0700
                Re: Formal-ity and the Church-Turing thesis Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-08 07:43 +0100
                Re: Formal-ity and the Church-Turing thesis Ravi Sahni <ganeshsahni07@gmail.com> - 2013-10-08 18:31 +0530
                Re: Formal-ity and the Church-Turing thesis rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-10-08 06:33 -0700
                Re: Formal-ity and the Church-Turing thesis Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-08 07:50 +0000
                Re: Formal-ity and the Church-Turing thesis Ravi Sahni <ganeshsahni07@gmail.com> - 2013-10-08 18:16 +0530
                Re: Formal-ity and the Church-Turing thesis Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-08 13:11 +0000
                Re: Formal-ity and the Church-Turing thesis Robert Day <robertkday@gmail.com> - 2013-10-08 14:25 +0100
                Re: Formal-ity and the Church-Turing thesis Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-10-09 08:36 +1100
                Re: Formal-ity and the Church-Turing thesis Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-07 22:19 -0700
                Re: Formal-ity and the Church-Turing thesis rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-10-07 23:01 -0700
                Re: Formal-ity and the Church-Turing thesis Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-08 10:39 -0700
                Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-07 17:16 -0700
                Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-08 02:36 +0000
                Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-07 20:27 -0700
                Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-08 09:22 +0000
                Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Charles Hixson <charleshixsn@earthlink.net> - 2013-10-09 15:45 -0700
                Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org> - 2013-10-07 22:46 -0400
                Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2013-10-08 10:25 +0300
                Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-10-08 11:18 +0200
              Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Piet van Oostrum <piet@vanoostrum.org> - 2013-10-07 22:45 -0400
                Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-10-07 20:34 -0700
    Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-10-02 18:17 -0400
      Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-03 01:24 +0000
        Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-10-03 01:39 +0000
        Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-10-03 02:46 +0100
          Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-03 02:34 +0000
            Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-10-03 14:14 +1000
            Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps random832@fastmail.us - 2013-10-03 10:16 -0400
            Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-10-03 15:04 -0400
        Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-10-02 22:41 -0400
          Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-04 01:30 +0000
        Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-10-02 23:06 -0400
        Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps random832@fastmail.us - 2013-10-03 10:14 -0400
        Literal syntax for frozenset, frozendict (was: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-10-04 10:18 +1000
        Re: Literal syntax for frozenset, frozendict Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-10-03 18:31 -0700
    Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2013-10-03 14:52 +0000
      Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-10-03 16:03 +0000
        Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2013-10-04 10:16 +0000
          Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-10-04 04:41 -0600
          Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-10-04 04:46 -0600
            Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Duncan Booth <duncan.booth@invalid.invalid> - 2013-10-04 11:16 +0000
          Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2013-10-04 14:11 +0300
          Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-10-04 17:14 -0400
          Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-10-05 09:39 +0200
          Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps random832@fastmail.us - 2013-10-07 17:27 -0400
            Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2013-10-08 10:11 +0300
          Re: Tail recursion to while iteration in 2 easy steps Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-10-08 11:43 +0200

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