Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable)

References	(4 earlier) <531688b1$0$25064$e4fe514c@dreader37.news.xs4all.nl> <53169cd9$0$2923$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com> <c39d5b44-6c7b-40d1-bbb5-791a36af6857@googlegroups.com> <roy-38F1BC.23253704032014@news.panix.com> <5316d7a0$0$2923$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com>
From	Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com>
Date	2014-03-05 12:21 +0000
Subject	Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable)
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.7815.1394022463.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On 5 March 2014 07:52, Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> wrote:
> On Tue, 04 Mar 2014 23:25:37 -0500, Roy Smith wrote:
>
>> I stopped paying attention to mathematicians when they tried to convince
>> me that the sum of all natural numbers is -1/12.
>
> I'm pretty sure they did not. Possibly a physicist may have tried to tell
> you that, but most mathematicians consider physicists to be lousy
> mathematicians, and the mere fact that they're results seem to actually
> work in practice is an embarrassment for the entire universe. A
> mathematician would probably have said that the sum of all natural
> numbers is divergent and therefore there is no finite answer.

Why the dig at physicists? I think most physicists would be able to
tell you that the sum of all natural numbers is not -1/12. In fact
most people with very little background in mathematics can tell you
that.

The argument that the sum of all natural numbers comes to -1/12 is
just some kind of hoax. I don't think *anyone* seriously believes it.

> Well, that is, apart from mathematicians like Euler and Ramanujan. When
> people like them tell you something, you better pay attention.

Really? Euler didn't even know about absolutely convergent series (the
point in question) and would quite happily combine infinite series to
obtain a formula.

<snip>
> Normally mathematicians will tell you that divergent series don't have a
> total. That's because often the total you get can vary depending on how
> you add them up. The classic example is summing the infinite series:
>
> 1 - 1 + 1 - 1 + 1 - ...

There is a distinction between absolute convergence and convergence.
Rearranging the order of the terms in the above infinite sum is
invalid because the series is not absolutely convergent. For this
particular series there is no sense in which its sum converges on an
answer but there are other series that cannot be rearranged while
still being convergent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonic_series_(mathematics)#Alternating_harmonic_series

Personally I think it's reasonable to just say that the sum of the
natural numbers is infinite rather than messing around with terms like
undefined, divergent, or existence. There is a clear difference
between a series (or any limit) that fails to converge  asymptotically
and another that just goes to +-infinity. The difference is usually
also relevant to any practical application of this kind of maths.

Oscar

Thread

Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 03:28 -0800
  Re: Finding size of Variable Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2014-02-04 12:40 +0100
    Re: Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 04:43 -0800
      Re: Finding size of Variable Asaf Las <roegltd@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 04:53 -0800
        Re: Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 05:18 -0800
      Re: Finding size of Variable Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-02-04 08:09 -0500
        Re: Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 05:19 -0800
          Re: Finding size of Variable Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-02-04 09:06 -0500
            Re: Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 21:00 -0800
  Re:Finding size of Variable Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-02-04 14:21 -0500
    Re: Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 21:15 -0800
      Re: Finding size of Variable Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2014-02-05 09:27 +0100
  Re: Finding size of Variable Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2014-02-04 19:28 +0000
  Re: Finding size of Variable Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-02-04 13:29 -0600
    Re: Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 21:35 -0800
      Re: Finding size of Variable Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 21:45 -0800
        Re: Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-04 22:00 -0800
      Re: Finding size of Variable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-05 11:00 +0000
        Re: Finding size of Variable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-05 22:44 +1100
          Re: Finding size of Variable wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-06 02:15 -0800
            Re: Finding size of Variable Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-06 06:10 -0500
              Re: Finding size of Variable wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-06 05:51 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-06 06:15 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-08 02:48 +0000
                Re: Finding size of Variable Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-02-07 19:02 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-08 13:17 +0000
                Re: Finding size of Variable David Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2014-02-08 17:45 -0500
                Re: Finding size of Variable Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-08 17:25 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable David Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2014-02-08 21:56 -0500
                Re: Finding size of Variable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-09 13:59 +1100
                Re: Finding size of Variable David Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2014-02-08 22:07 -0500
                Re: Finding size of Variable Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-08 22:09 -0500
                Re: Finding size of Variable David Hutto <dwightdhutto@gmail.com> - 2014-02-08 22:09 -0500
                Re: Finding size of Variable Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-08 22:16 -0500
                Re: Finding size of Variable Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-08 19:30 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-10 06:07 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable Asaf Las <roegltd@gmail.com> - 2014-02-10 06:25 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-10 14:39 +0000
                Re: Finding size of Variable Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2014-02-10 08:43 -0600
                Re: Finding size of Variable wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-11 10:53 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-11 19:04 +0000
                Re: Finding size of Variable wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-11 23:49 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 19:06 +1100
                Re: Finding size of Variable Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-02-12 10:57 +0200
                Re: Finding size of Variable Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 20:24 +1100
                Re: Finding size of Variable Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-02-12 11:35 +0200
                Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-12 19:17 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-12 00:35 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-12 00:46 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-12 19:52 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-02-12 15:24 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) "Gisle Vanem" <gvanem@yahoo.no> - 2014-02-12 17:23 +0100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 19:47 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2014-02-12 11:23 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-04 02:45 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 14:02 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 19:13 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 14:46 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-03 21:19 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-04 05:53 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 17:35 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-03-05 00:05 +1300
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 23:43 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-04 21:49 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 06:58 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 20:55 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-03-04 23:05 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:08 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 08:18 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:02 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 09:18 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 22:54 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 10:01 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-03-04 18:20 -0500
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 11:59 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-03-05 07:57 -0500
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-03-05 08:32 -0500
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 12:27 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-07 00:16 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 04:19 -0700
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-05 02:27 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 04:23 -0700
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-05 02:15 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 03:41 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 20:15 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-04 23:25 -0500
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-03-05 15:37 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-03-04 20:57 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-05 00:29 -0500
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 07:52 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 08:38 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-03-05 01:00 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-03-05 06:23 -0500
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 12:21 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 17:43 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 05:01 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Chris Kaynor <ckaynor@zindagigames.com> - 2014-03-05 10:03 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-03-05 19:13 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2014-03-05 21:22 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-05 21:31 -0500
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-06 03:06 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-06 14:14 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-03-05 23:05 -0500
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers (was: Finding size of Variable) Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-03-06 03:34 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-05 12:50 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-03-05 17:49 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-12 19:56 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 20:16 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-12 21:07 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 06:11 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 13:45 -0700
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 17:47 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-13 11:09 +1300
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-02-13 03:31 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-13 14:45 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 15:17 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 21:20 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-02-12 02:55 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-12 06:55 -0500
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-12 14:48 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 00:20 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-12 16:13 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 04:52 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-13 11:24 +1300
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-02-12 17:56 -0500
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-14 18:26 +1300
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-12 22:44 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 22:58 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-13 11:32 +1300
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-02-12 23:23 +0000
                Re: Finding size of Variable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-12 14:04 +0000
                Re: Finding size of Variable Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 06:14 -0800
                Re: Finding size of Variable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-12 14:25 +0000
                Re: Finding size of Variable Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-12 06:32 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 12:48 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-13 16:00 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 06:25 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-13 21:47 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 07:08 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2014-02-13 22:05 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-15 00:30 +1300
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 16:26 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl (Albert van der Horst) - 2014-03-05 02:38 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-02-14 19:37 +1300
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 17:44 +1100
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-02-14 07:13 -0800
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-02-14 07:30 -0500
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-02-14 15:09 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-13 21:29 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-14 00:00 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2014-02-13 22:21 +0000
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-14 01:16 +0200
                Re: Working with the set of real numbers Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-02-14 03:57 +1100
                Re: Finding size of Variable Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-02-10 10:02 -0500
                Re: Finding size of Variable Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2014-02-11 14:29 +0000
        Re: Finding size of Variable Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-02-05 22:14 -0500
      Re: Finding size of Variable Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2014-02-05 08:43 -0500
        Re: Finding size of Variable Ayushi Dalmia <ayushidalmia2604@gmail.com> - 2014-02-05 06:33 -0800
          Re: Finding size of Variable Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-02-05 15:22 +0000

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