Re: Tuples and immutability

From	Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject	Re: Tuples and immutability
Date	2014-03-01 14:54 +0000
References	<lennh4$kpm$1@cabale.usenet-fr.net> <059a3d10-453a-40fd-99f9-33ceb8ecabf7@googlegroups.com> <mailman.7499.1393651028.18130.python-list@python.org> <dc08f190-e4d3-40bc-9fd3-9fa24f757816@googlegroups.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.7514.1393685683.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On 01/03/2014 06:16, Mark H. Harris wrote:
> On Friday, February 28, 2014 11:16:18 PM UTC-6, Ian wrote:
>
>> How would you propose doing that?  Bear in mind that while Python
>> knows that tuples specifically are immutable, it doesn't generally
>> know whether a type is immutable.
>
>
> hi Ian,   consider the problem... its a "cake" and "eat it too" scenario...   you can't have your cake and eat it too....
>
> This is what I mean...   the error message is telling the user that it cannot do what he has requested, and yet IT DID.  You have one of two scenarios:   1) the message is arbitrarily lying and it really can assign an immutable's item...  (and it did!)  or 2)  It really should NOT assign an immutables item (the message is truth) but the action was "allowed" anyway despite the protocol and accepted policy...  in which case the two scenarios add up to a giant logical inconsistency...  QED   a bug.
>
> There really is no way to get around this from the average user's perspective. And therefore, this is going to come up again and again and again... because coders don't like unexpected logical inconsistencies.
>
> It is not helpful either to explain it away by knowing how the policy works under the covers... the average user of the python language should not have to understand the policy of the underlying substructure...
>
> 1) either they can't assign the list item of an immutable tuple type (and the action is a flaw, say bug
>
> of
>
> 2) they really CAN set the immutable's list item type (which it did!) and the message is bogus.
>
>
> Its one way or the other....  we can't have our cake and eat it too... this is (one way or the other) a bug.
>
> IMHO
>

would you please be kind enough to use plain English...  your use of 
sentences like this...  is starting to annoy me...

you're also using google groups...  it doesn't wrap paragraphs 
correctly...  please read and action this 
https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython...  it does wrap 
paragraphs correctly...  it also prevents us seeing double line spacing...

do you get my drift???

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask 
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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Thread

Tuples and immutability Eric Jacoboni <eric.jacoboni@gmail.com> - 2014-02-27 17:01 +0100
  Re: Tuples and immutability Zachary Ware <zachary.ware+pylist@gmail.com> - 2014-02-27 10:13 -0600
    Re: Tuples and immutability Eric Jacoboni <eric.jacoboni@gmail.com> - 2014-02-27 17:27 +0100
      Re: Tuples and immutability Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-28 03:33 +1100
      Re: Tuples and immutability Zachary Ware <zachary.ware+pylist@gmail.com> - 2014-02-27 10:47 -0600
      Re: Tuples and immutability Nick Timkovich <prometheus235@gmail.com> - 2014-02-27 15:47 -0600
      Re: Tuples and immutability Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-28 08:52 +1100
      Re: Tuples and immutability Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-27 15:18 -0700
      Re: Tuples and immutability Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2014-03-01 18:55 +0000
  Re: Tuples and immutability Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-02-28 03:14 +1100
  Re: Tuples and immutability Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-27 18:19 +0200
    Re: Tuples and immutability John O'Hagan <research@johnohagan.com> - 2014-02-28 16:17 +1100
      Re: Tuples and immutability Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-02-28 09:54 +0200
  Re: Tuples and immutability Joshua Landau <joshua@landau.ws> - 2014-02-28 14:41 +0000
  Re: Tuples and immutability Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-01 01:43 +1100
  Re: Tuples and immutability "Mark H. Harris" <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-02-28 16:22 -0800
    Re: Tuples and immutability Eric Jacoboni <eric.jacoboni@gmail.com> - 2014-03-01 02:27 +0100
      Re: Tuples and immutability "Mark H. Harris" <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-02-28 20:45 -0800
        Re: Tuples and immutability Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-28 22:34 -0700
          Re: Tuples and immutability "Mark H. Harris" <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-02-28 21:50 -0800
            Re: Tuples and immutability Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-03-01 12:56 -0500
      Re: Tuples and immutability Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-28 22:26 -0700
    Re: Tuples and immutability Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-01 12:39 +1100
    Re: Tuples and immutability Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-02-28 22:16 -0700
      Re: Tuples and immutability "Mark H. Harris" <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-02-28 22:16 -0800
        Re: Tuples and immutability Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-03-01 17:29 +1100
        Re: Tuples and immutability Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-01 14:54 +0000
          Re: Tuples and immutability "Mark H. Harris" <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-01 13:01 -0800
      Re: Tuples and immutability "Mark H. Harris" <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-02-28 22:25 -0800
        Re: Tuples and immutability Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-01 12:45 -0700
      Re: Tuples and immutability "Mark H. Harris" <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-01 13:21 -0800
        Re: Tuples and immutability Eric Jacoboni <eric.jacoboni@gmail.com> - 2014-03-02 03:04 +0100
          Re: Tuples and immutability "Mark H. Harris" <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-01 18:28 -0800
          Re: Tuples and immutability Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-03-02 05:32 -0700
            Re: Tuples and immutability Eric Jacoboni <eric.jacoboni@gmail.com> - 2014-03-02 14:38 +0100
              Re: Tuples and immutability Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-03-02 14:05 +0000
                Re: Tuples and immutability Eric Jacoboni <eric.jacoboni@gmail.com> - 2014-03-02 15:17 +0100
                Re: Tuples and immutability "albert visser" <albert.visser@gmail.com> - 2014-03-02 15:37 +0100
        Re: Tuples and immutability "Mark H. Harris" <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-03-01 18:15 -0800

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